It states that two boons *BB* or two banes {BB} may be used to recover or cause fatigue. It also states that boons and banes are 'fuel' and must be spent (unlike successes).

My question is, do you need to be successful in your hit attempt to use them as such? My second question would be, if there are boon/bane effects listed on the card, can you still opt to affect fatigue instead?

I would say, yes, you need to be successful, but that seems a little counter productive when considering banes.

I would also say that you may choose how you want to spend them, but I seem to remember reading something to the contrary (I just can't seem to find it at the moment).

Boons and Banes are spent entrirely independently of any successes. You can succeed and spend banes, and you can fail and spend boons, you can fail and recover fatigue, etc.

And for a PC Boon effects are entirely down to the player; he can choose what to spend them on. Eg, he can choose to undo a Fatigue instead of doing +2 damage. But Bane effects are down to the GM, and he gets to choose what to spend those on.

But, slightly differently, Boon and Bane effects on NPCs are both down to the GM.

Edit: I think I misinterpreted your question slightly, but the answer's in there somewhere.

No, you read it right - that's how I thought it was and your post confirmed. I just needed some backup on this issue to make sure I was reading it right. Thanks a bunch.

So if an attack with a recharge rate misses the boon can still be used? Hmm... don't know if I like that.

Also I was allowing +1 fatigue/stress to be removed / assigned on rolls other than combat. Like initiative and observation checks. Was this what was intended?

The dwarven troll-slayer fainted twice because he was overstressed, much to the player's dismay.

No, just the fatigue section of it. You can't activate a card boon/bane unless you hit (I'm pretty sure), but you can still use them for fatigue/stress.

Not sure about boons/banes in non-combat rolls...

So, since monsters can't take fatigue, and forcing them to do so would cause a wound, I wonder if using a couple of boons to heal a fatigue would heal a wound instead... Hmmm.

Yeah, I just sit around all day and think this stuff up.

I would say yes boons could heal, but thats without knowing the rules, as the boon/bane bit are generaly directly opposing effects.

I think we could do with another official answer on this one...

If the roll to activate a card fails, but banes (or boons) are rolled, can the boon/bane effect on the card be activated or can the boons/banes only be used in some other manner (fatigue/stress etc)

I can see how it could be right to not be able to activate a boon card effect, but as a GM I'm pretty sure I'd like to be able to activate the bane card effect, even if the roll fails, but that's just my cruel streak talking!

I agree an official answer is needed.

How long was this game in playtesting? How many different DM's were running? It seems as if only 1 because most of these questions we're asking should have came up before and put into the rulebook.

Vegabond said:

Well, as a playtester GM I can only say that I have a very clear idea of what I would and would not allow boons and banes for, and gave my feedback accordingly. And I believe the answer to all the questions raised in this thread, afaict, do actually appear in the rulebook, either explicitly or implicitly.

Keep in mind that I think a lot of this was intentionally left open - to allow the GMs to run games as best suits his style and methods. At least that's the way it seems to me when reading it. It tries really hard not to stifle creativity.

I've been looking at this, and this is how I see it:

Let's use a couple of different effects.

*BB* You do +1 critical

This converts a wound you do to a critical. You have to hit to make it happen - so, you can't use it if you don't hit.

*BB* You do +1 damage

If you read this as "+1 to any damage you do" (my interpretation), it's just as above.

I would suspect that other cards are like this. Boon results are modifiers to something that happens. If nothing happens, there's nothing to modify. The exception is the Fatigue/Stress thing, that can be used any time. I think.

Hey, FFG dev guys! Can we borrow one of you for a day or two and pick your brain?

NezziR said:

Yep, that's right. There is an action card, I forget which one, that says it inflicts stress of fatigue (I think) on the target with the boon even if you miss. That's a pretty clear indication that the boon effects on the action cards only apply when you succeed. I saw it last night when I was browsing through the action cards for other stuff.

dvang said:

The rules seem pretty clear to me that you can inflict any boon or bane effect you like regardless of whether the Action succeeds or fails. Obviously you need to use common sense as a guide to what is possible, as well as desirable, eg, failing a melee action would make a 'boon = +1 damage' effect redundant, but a 'free manoeuvre' effect could still be taken.

monkeylite said:

That makes a lot of sense.

monkeylite said:

Can you point me to this? I'm having a little trouble finding that statement. Thx.

pg 46, Who Gets to Decide Which Effects Are Triggered:

"Conversely, a character might fail to accomplish his action, but still trigger some beneficial side effect from boons."

My question then is, does that mean a +1 critical (or "inflicts a critical") on a boon mean the target, despite the action failing, suffers a critical/Wound?

Similarly, a +3 damage on a boon effect, does that mean the target suffers 3 damage? (not that it really matters, since T and soak will usually prevent it from doing any actual Wounds). Same for inflicting the weapon CR without succeeding on the attack action. Does that inflict a single Wound? Remember, pg 59. Minimum Wounds are 1, and the rules say that if the damage inflicted is 0 or less, any critical wound results instead inflict a number of normal Wounds equal to the total number of critical damage effects generated.

dvang said:

I'd say the effect of the boon is added to the damage, but if you fail to do damage, the extra damage is wasted. You have to hit before you start damage calculation, so if you don't hit, you skip the damage.

After reading a bit, I think the answer is, ‘Yes, may trigger boon or bane effects on the card, even if you do not succeed with the attack.’

This bothered me because I was seeing situations where you might miss, but still do damage. After reading a bit more, I no longer think this is the case.

It never really states in the rules, “Even if you miss, you may trigger boon and bane effects on the card.” Nor can I find where it says, “If you miss, you may not use any line entries on a power card.” It implies that you can, but I can’t seem to find a direct statement.

I dug into the wording of it a bit more and this is the conclusion I’ve come to:

You must hit and do damage (even negative or zero damage) for a critical to have any effect. In other words, you must have a 'damage potential', even if it's zero or less after the mitigation calculation. Criticals only trigger when it is able to convert an existing wound into a critical. In the case of the Minimum Wound, it doesn’t actually convert the wound, it adds additional wounds, but the whole process is trigged by the ‘assumed success’ mentioned in the ‘damage calculation’ section.

You could still use a bane to fuel a critical if you miss, from a CR rating on a weapon, or from an action card, but it will have no effect unless you do at least the ‘minimum 1 wound’.

With that solution, there are no other issues with using boons to trigger action card entries should the action roll fail. For example, Rapid Fire: For *BB* you can “Perform a free manoeuvre after this action is complete.” Even if the shot misses, using this action card would allow you to disengage after it was resolved (assuming you could fuel it). Consequently on the same card, {BB} would allow a nearby (close ranged) opponent to engage you. It’s an inherent situation created by the actions necessary to complete the attack.

Except that's not quite true NezziR. (Note: I agree in prinicpal with what you said, and think it makes sense). However, RAW seems to say otherwise.

pg 46, Who Gets to Decide Which Effects Are Triggered:

"Conversely, a character might fail to accomplish his action, but still trigger some beneficial side effect from boons."

I already quoted the line and gave the page number. An action can fail, but a player can still activate a boon line. This says exactly that, if you miss (fail the attack action) you can still trigger boons from the side effect lines. Also, note that Boon/Bane lines are not "Success lines". The description for "success lines" says that the action must succeed. The effect lines have no such description.

If you look at the rules on damage and criticals, it says if you do any criticals and damage inflicted is zero or less, then any criticals caused are converted into normal wounds. There is no "minimum of 1 wound to use a critical". You must inflict 1 wound for the critical to be a critical, though. If you don't inflict 1 wound, then those criticals instead are normal wounds. It also says nothing about needing an attack action to succeed to cause a critical. (Yes, it seems silly to me, and possibly an oversight or poor wording). So, technically, if you cause a critical from a boon, and no damage, that critical converts into a Wound. If you cause 2 Criticals from boons, those convert into 2 Wounds (if there's no other damage). That's how the rules seem to read.

Now, my personal opinon is that the intent is that no success on an action does not equal "0" Wounds damage potential. No success equals "NULL" wounds (engineer speak), ie. there is no damage potential at all. Thus, since damage potential is not 0 wounds or less, the criticals don't convert and are ignored. The same with +1 damage. There is no damage potential, since the attack action did not succeed, so you can't add +1 to it.

I don't think the rules currently say this, however.

dvang said:

Yes, the NULL concept is what I was trying to get across. If you do not hit, you are not doing damage, zero or otherwise, and so the critical triggers have no effect.

If you hit and get zero or less wounds (a non-NULL result), and you can generate a crit, then it’s a minimum 1 wound, plus 1 more for each crit generated.

Clarification and summary:

The Question is:
Can you trigger boon and bane effects on an action card, even if you fail to succeed during the action roll?

dvang said:
Quote: "Conversely, a character might fail to accomplish his action, but still trigger some beneficial side effect from boons."
This says exactly that, if you miss (fail the attack action) you can still trigger boons from the side effect lines.

This is where I had problems; ‘beneficial side effect’ could mean the reduction of stress or fatigue available at all times (and not on a card at all), or effects from talents or conditions. Thus, it could be saying, “Conversely, a character might fail to accomplish his action, but still trigger some beneficial side effect from boons such as the regeneration of fatigue or stress.” However, I think it is saying, “Conversely, a character might fail to accomplish his action, but still trigger some beneficial side effect from boon results on the action card or elsewhere.”

dvang said:
There is no "minimum of 1 wound to use a critical".

No, there’s not, but it’s an incidental effect of the process. If you hit and do zero or less wounds, the ‘1 wound minimum’ kicks in. Consequently, this same ‘condition’ causes crits to be converted to wounds. So, if you hit and you do zero or less wounds, there is a minimum of 1 wound. If, during this resolution, you generate crits from card effects or from weapon CR ratings, those crits would be converted to normal wounds and added to the total. So, ‘A successful attack that generates zero or few wounds = Minimum 1 wound, +1 wound per critical generated’.

Summary:

• If you fail to achieve at least one ‘success’ during an action card resolution roll, negative or beneficial boon and bane side effects on the card, or from other sources, may still be activated.
• ‘Effects’ are defined as lines that are not ‘Success Lines’, or simply Boon, Bane, Comet, or Chaos Star effects as well as standard effects like fatigue and stress reclamation, or boon and bane effects from talents, conditions, and other sources.
• Damage is defined as any amount of damage (damage potential minus damage mitigation), positive, negative, or zero in value. Failure to do damage, due to a failed action card roll for example, would be considered NULL damage, or no damage.
• If the damage of a successful attack is zero or less than zero, the attack still generates a minimum of 1 wound.
• If the damage is not NULL, but is equal to zero or less, and critical effects are generated, those crits are converted to standard wounds and added to the minimum 1 wound for a total damage done to the target. Note: This is post damage mitigation calculation so toughness and soak have already been considered.

I hope I didn’t muddy things up trying to logic this problem into submission (yeah, I used logic as a verb).

Short Answer:
Question: Can you trigger boon and bane effects on an action card, even if you fail to succeed during the action roll?
Answer: Yes. This would also apply to other effects listed on the action card such as a Comet or a Chaos Star.

Addendum:

• If you fail to generate a success during an action card resolution roll, and so have NULL or no damage, any crits generated have no effect and are ignored.

Short Answer:
Question: If you fail to hit, can you still spend boons on crits and do damage anyway.
Answer: Technically, you can buy them, but they have no effect. You can only ‘convert crits to damage’ on a successful hit in which the total damage is zero or less.

Disclaimer: This is my interpretation of the rules and not an official errata.

Mods : If this any of this or the last two posts are incorrect, please delete them to avoid confusion.