I seem to be a little confused about how many Astropaths and Navigators apart from any PC characters a ship would have? It kinda matters with regards to the Astropaths given the choir helping the Player character do there job.
How Many Other Navigators and Astropaths are there aboard the ship?
In my campaign, there are 4 Astropaths and 2 Navigators. I would think there is normally one Navigator, but we have two players who run Navigators - thus two on the ship.
Some can make the case for one of each type, some could make the case for quite a few Astropaths....but I think the numbers of Navigators would always be few. Woe be to the ship on the fringe whose Navigator dies...
The ship my players travel in have one Astropeth (in the moment) and 3 Navigators (one "Master" and 2 sibling novices).
Most ships have only one navigator, if that. Rogue traders often do "package deals" with Navigator houses, gaining the services of one senior navigator and a few of his apprentices who could stand to learn from the experience of picking up the Astronomican from the edge of Imperial space.
Most Navigators and their Houses wouldn't want to put more than one Navigator on a vessel. It allows for too many ways to pressure them that wouldn't exist if there was only one Navigator assigned to the ship. Besides that, young Navigators are much more likely to be trained deep inside the relatively safe warp passages of civilized sectors than out in the wilds where Rogue traders are likely to go - it makes them more available for breeding too.
One navigator per ship? There is some support for there being only one navigator per ship, although it's certainly not a number set in stone. But consider the implications: one navigator means that the either the ship has to leave the warp every time he needs a break, or navigators can somehow ignore their need for sleep for the duration of a warp jump. The former is completely non-canon - ships travel is long, multi-day or week jumps, not eight-twelve hour hops. The latter implies some funky tech, drugs, or effects from the navis mutation.
So, if you want single navigators, they're also able to go without sleep while remaining fully alert for indefinite periods. Something to keep in mind.
Myself, I prefer a senior (usually PC) navigator and two-three journeymen who do the work in shifts, with the senior handling entry, exit, and on-call for emergencies.
For astropaths, I'd usually assign just one Transcendent, as the class talks about how lesser astros can't handle being out in the Expanse . Getting a choir of juniors (who could presumably manage via mutual support) would be a good endeavor or acquisition, but you'd need access to an astropathic relay component to actually get any benefit from them in terms of communications.
Most Navigators and their Houses wouldn't want to put more than one Navigator on a vessel. It allows for too many ways to pressure them that wouldn't exist if there was only one Navigator assigned to the ship. Besides that, young Navigators are much more likely to be trained deep inside the relatively safe warp passages of civilized sectors than out in the wilds where Rogue traders are likely to go - it makes them more available for breeding too.
All valid arguments, but that's the way it is.
Cifer said:
Most Navigators and their Houses wouldn't want to put more than one Navigator on a vessel. It allows for too many ways to pressure them that wouldn't exist if there was only one Navigator assigned to the ship. Besides that, young Navigators are much more likely to be trained deep inside the relatively safe warp passages of civilized sectors than out in the wilds where Rogue traders are likely to go - it makes them more available for breeding too.
All valid arguments, but that's the way it is.
Interesting. Shame he doesn't say anything about that in the actual rulebook, isn't it? He's also overlooking the fact that canon (going back to Spacefleet) says you're not "stranded" without a navigator. Ships can make very, very short warp jumps using the machine spirits to plot courses, but your travel time and safety margins will be horrible. Limping home that way is just barely possible, but you'll need to stock up on supplies, get rid of unneeded mouths (possibly rendering them into corpse starch), ration like mad, and maybe convert half the ship to hydroponics to make the journey.
Hmmm. Pretty good version of the "Dark Voyage" origin path option, actually.
Interesting. Shame he doesn't say anything about that in the actual rulebook, isn't it?
Yup. A shame. And since there's no mentioning of lighters and lighter combat in the rulebook, it doesn't exist either, I guess.
He's also overlooking the fact that canon (going back to Spacefleet) says you're not "stranded" without a navigator. Ships can make very, very short warp jumps using the machine spirits to plot courses, but your travel time and safety margins will be horrible. Limping home that way is just barely possible, but you'll need to stock up on supplies, get rid of unneeded mouths (possibly rendering them into corpse starch), ration like mad, and maybe convert half the ship to hydroponics to make the journey.
Considering the extraordinary circumstances that exist in the Expanse, most ships operating in uncharted territory without a Navigator are essentially stranded since navigating in the frequent warp storms and other Negative Space Wedgies without a Navigator is like saying "Sure, we'll just pick a direction and go!" when asked what to do when in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It may work when you're near an inhabited planet, but otherwise, when you're smack in the middle of the Space Region Of A Thousand Dangers? No way.
What about Astropaths? The rules say the more they are in the Choir the stronger the messages they can send from ships are but it does'nt give a number of how many Astropaths a ship has or a way of figuring out a number
Cifer said:
Most Navigators and their Houses wouldn't want to put more than one Navigator on a vessel. It allows for too many ways to pressure them that wouldn't exist if there was only one Navigator assigned to the ship. Besides that, young Navigators are much more likely to be trained deep inside the relatively safe warp passages of civilized sectors than out in the wilds where Rogue traders are likely to go - it makes them more available for breeding too.
All valid arguments, but that's the way it is.
That's one suggestion for having multple Navigators, but it doesn't mean it's one supported by the background (although I'll put some thought into Argoden's ideas for a counterpoint) - it appears to be merely a metagame justification for Navigator PCs and of having back-ups aboard. You'll find that just because the writrs/developers made certain decisions hardly means that those are the correct choices for everyone.
In my RT campaign the players have 1 Navigator and 3 Astropaths (one mainly sending Astropath-Primus, one mainly receiving Astropath-Terminus and one old Astropath-Veneratus) on board. If one of the players had chosen a Navigator as his character, I would have said two of them are on board altogether (one old and almost unable to leave his Oculus) as mentioned in the developers diary. If one had chosen the Astropath Transcendent, I would put him on board plus the three mentioned. In the end it should also depend on the size of the vessel, with a cruiser having a choir of Astropaths while a raider/destroyer would have only one Astropath. In DH it is mentioned that the Bastion Pophyr on Scintilla has half a dozen Astropaths and thereby the largest concentration of Astropaths in the sector...
HappyDaze said:
Cifer said:
Most Navigators and their Houses wouldn't want to put more than one Navigator on a vessel. It allows for too many ways to pressure them that wouldn't exist if there was only one Navigator assigned to the ship. Besides that, young Navigators are much more likely to be trained deep inside the relatively safe warp passages of civilized sectors than out in the wilds where Rogue traders are likely to go - it makes them more available for breeding too.
All valid arguments, but that's the way it is.
That's one suggestion for having multple Navigators, but it doesn't mean it's one supported by the background (although I'll put some thought into Argoden's ideas for a counterpoint) - it appears to be merely a metagame justification for Navigator PCs and of having back-ups aboard. You'll find that just because the writrs/developers made certain decisions hardly means that those are the correct choices for everyone.
Introducing a bad gameplay mechanic is never a good idea. Even when the lore demands it. So what alternative do you have that would allow the navigator to remain a playable character ?
A single Navigator is still a playable character much as having a single Rogue Trader is workable. There is little reason that a Voidmaster with Press-ganged couldn't pick up Navigation (Warp) as his free skill and get the ship by with micro jumps until they can find/recruit/kidnap a new Navigator. This would give the game a 'Lost in Space" feel and the group would have less control for a bit, but some groups and GMs like - or even prefer - this type of gameplay. An excellent game can begin with a ship lacking a Navigator, especially for a group not yet interested in Endeavours and self-directed gaming. For a while, it might be an adventure just to get back home.
However, the phrase "even when the lore demands it" is one that really gets me. The "lore" says that I shouldn't play a Genestealer hybrid as a PC, but is saying no to them a bad game mechanic? I'm not entirely certain that a Navigator is appropriate for off-ship adventuring, but it is provided in the book (but so is the possibility of a PC daemon from the mutations table). That doesn't mean we should abandon the "lore" asociated with them just to create something more playable.
Lanowar said:
What about Astropaths? The rules say the more they are in the Choir the stronger the messages they can send from ships are but it does'nt give a number of how many Astropaths a ship has or a way of figuring out a number
Numbers only help when using an astropathic relay, which is hardly standard equipment for ships and probably ought to have been on the component list as an option. FWIW, I stuck a suggested version up on the House Rules subforum.
Also, PC astropaths are unusual in that they're capable of travelling (relatively) safely in the Expanse at all. Lesser (no-transcendent) astros have issues with the isolation and "bad thoughts" getting into their heads. If you're going to drag them along at all, you'll probably need a mob of them and monitors to keep them from going mad. Kind of a roadshow version of the Blind novel.
For Astropaths, I'm assuming that there's a Choir of five to give the full +5 bonus to communication working under a single Transcendent Astropath. The lesser Astropaths are effectively rating 1. They form a Choir to boost the power of the primary Astropath whenever a message needs to be sent. The rest of the time, they work in shifts with one of the five always "on duty" and in a receptive trance to relay any messages that might be received.
This seems to work best from a starship point of view.
Tantavalist said:
For Astropaths, I'm assuming that there's a Choir of five to give the full +5 bonus to communication working under a single Transcendent Astropath. The lesser Astropaths are effectively rating 1. They form a Choir to boost the power of the primary Astropath whenever a message needs to be sent. The rest of the time, they work in shifts with one of the five always "on duty" and in a receptive trance to relay any messages that might be received.
This seems to work best from a starship point of view.
I think that's the best way of doing it thanks for that!
Tetragon Tanebrae said:
The ship my players travel in have one Astropeth (in the moment) and 3 Navigators (one "Master" and 2 sibling novices).
No Choir?
Lanowar said:
What about Astropaths? The rules say the more they are in the Choir the stronger the messages they can send from ships are but it does'nt give a number of how many Astropaths a ship has or a way of figuring out a number
At least 5. Since thats the point you max out the bonus. It is also the point that a Psi2 at fettered can use them for a safe interstellar signal. Less would be unsafe and inefficient.
And will inevetibley happen as they get eaten by warp gribblies
Dahak said:
Tetragon Tanebrae said:
The ship my players travel in have one Astropeth (in the moment) and 3 Navigators (one "Master" and 2 sibling novices).
No Choir?
No, just 1 Astropath, it is only an escort and they can always aquirre more later (though it will take a hell more than a few acquisition tests).
Tetragon Tanebrae said:
No, just 1 Astropath, it is only an escort and they can always aquirre more later (though it will take a hell more than a few acquisition tests).
Personally (as a GM), I'd always assume at least two Astropaths present aboard even escort vessels, one of which may be a player character - you need a reserve in case the primary burns out or explodes through power misuse, and if the primary is accompanying the Rogue Trader away from the ship, it means that the Rogue Trader can still contact his ship even if it's some distance away (any further than low orbit).
You don't necessarily need a spare Astropath anymore than a ship in Star Trek needs a spare warp core. Sure, when the time comes you'll wish you had a spare, but that doesn't mean that it's needed or even a desirable thing from a dramatic PoV. Too easy of access to back-ups of all core roles really devalues the hyper-specialist nature of both Astropaths and Navigators.
HappyDaze said:
You don't necessarily need a spare Astropath anymore than a ship in Star Trek needs a spare warp core. Sure, when the time comes you'll wish you had a spare, but that doesn't mean that it's needed or even a desirable thing from a dramatic PoV. Too easy of access to back-ups of all core roles really devalues the hyper-specialist nature of both Astropaths and Navigators.
Fundamentally, Astropaths are a resource rather than a profession (you don't choose to be an Astropath, and your life is one determined by those far above you in the Imperium). They're not exactly scarce (they make up the majority of legitimate psykers in the Imperium), and are a common sight across the Imperium (they're probably a lot more common than Rogue Traders, in the grand scheme of things). Remember, we're talking common-or-garden Astropaths here. Player Character Astropaths Transcendant are a cut above and something grander in nature than their more numerous and more mundane brethren.
Multiples are worthwhile because interstellar communication is a taxing, often dangerous job that leads to most Astropaths burning out from use of their powers, their lives cut short by the necessity of their duties. Given how absolutely essential they are to anyone needing to communicate over distances greater than a few thousand kilometres, you don't want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere without one. Multiples act to provide a degree of redundancy, but more often to support the primary in sending long messages as easily as possible.
Astropaths, like all human beings in the Imperium, are an expendable resource, to be used and discarded as required - the mortal fuel that drives the Imperium.
From a narrative perspective, having a number of lesser Astropaths as support for a PC one doesn't actually change much - even collectively, they won't be able to muster the power they could manage with their leader, and consequently similar difficulties in regards to communication become evident: the astropaths remaining can't send a message as far, as safely, or as reliably as they would otherwise be able to with the PC to lead their efforts. They're not spares, they're support staff, no different from the scores of Lexmechanics, Transmechanics, Rune Priests and Enginseers who serve the senior Tech-Priest aboard a starship - none of them can match the mastery or knowledge of their leader and thus cannot replace or surpass him, but they can aid him.
Keep in mind that having a choir of lesser astropaths does nothing to help with transmissions unless you've got astropathic relay equipment, and the description says those are found on "major star vessels" - a category that probably doesn't generally include the escorts that most RT use. Relays should be a homebrew component, not an assumed capability of all ships.
Also, the book makes it quite clear that Astropath Transcendents are rare even by psyker standards, and non-transcendents can't handle the Expanse for extended periods without going mad. Operating in a group might help a bit (since some go nuts from the psychic isolation) but lunacy and warp-madness is still going to be a problem sooner or later. Getting a whole choir of Transcendents ought to be a major endeavor. If it was easy, the Expanse would be much more completely mapped by now.
Argoden said:
Keep in mind that having a choir of lesser astropaths does nothing to help with transmissions unless you've got astropathic relay equipment, and the description says those are found on "major star vessels" - a category that probably doesn't generally include the escorts that most RT use. Relays should be a homebrew component, not an assumed capability of all ships.
Also, the book makes it quite clear that Astropath Transcendents are rare even by psyker standards, and non-transcendents can't handle the Expanse for extended periods without going mad. Operating in a group might help a bit (since some go nuts from the psychic isolation) but lunacy and warp-madness is still going to be a problem sooner or later. Getting a whole choir of Transcendents ought to be a major endeavor. If it was easy, the Expanse would be much more completely mapped by now.
You realise that Astropaths - of any kind - have very little to do with the mapping of warp routes and suchlike. That's actually one of the jobs of Navigators. And that's possible with or without Astropaths (as you can, if need be, rely on the much slower method of taking the charts back manually).
Beyond that, the book makes a point of mentioning that "Many Rogue Traders would not even consider setting foot on a new world without an Astropath Transcendent at their side, ready to summon aid at a moment's notice should disaster strike". Now, unless there are other Astropaths present aboard your ship, taking one with you when you go planetside is a pointless exercise - the Astropath won't be able to contact anyone quickly if the fecal matter strikes the atmosphere recirculator, because there's nobody on the ship to receive the message.
Astropaths Transcedent are rare by Astropath standards; that's it. But then, non-Astropath sanctioned psykers are rare by Astropath standards - few natural-born psykers have the will or strength of character to endure without the Soul Binding. And even with that rarity, there are billions or trillions of psykers in the Imperium - one in a million doesn't actually mean anything other than "comparatively rare" when things are considered in that light.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Argoden said:
Keep in mind that having a choir of lesser astropaths does nothing to help with transmissions unless you've got astropathic relay equipment, and the description says those are found on "major star vessels" - a category that probably doesn't generally include the escorts that most RT use. Relays should be a homebrew component, not an assumed capability of all ships.
Also, the book makes it quite clear that Astropath Transcendents are rare even by psyker standards, and non-transcendents can't handle the Expanse for extended periods without going mad. Operating in a group might help a bit (since some go nuts from the psychic isolation) but lunacy and warp-madness is still going to be a problem sooner or later. Getting a whole choir of Transcendents ought to be a major endeavor. If it was easy, the Expanse would be much more completely mapped by now.
You realise that Astropaths - of any kind - have very little to do with the mapping of warp routes and suchlike. That's actually one of the jobs of Navigators. And that's possible with or without Astropaths (as you can, if need be, rely on the much slower method of taking the charts back manually).
Beyond that, the book makes a point of mentioning that "Many Rogue Traders would not even consider setting foot on a new world without an Astropath Transcendent at their side, ready to summon aid at a moment's notice should disaster strike". Now, unless there are other Astropaths present aboard your ship, taking one with you when you go planetside is a pointless exercise - the Astropath won't be able to contact anyone quickly if the fecal matter strikes the atmosphere recirculator, because there's nobody on the ship to receive the message.
Astropaths Transcedent are rare by Astropath standards; that's it. But then, non-Astropath sanctioned psykers are rare by Astropath standards - few natural-born psykers have the will or strength of character to endure without the Soul Binding. And even with that rarity, there are billions or trillions of psykers in the Imperium - one in a million doesn't actually mean anything other than "comparatively rare" when things are considered in that light.
The Astropath is for calling for help beyond your ship which is presumably in orbit and can be easily reached by Vox-caster (which a Voidmaster has from the start).