This came up in a game last night. Does a familiar count as occupying a space for Scything Blades Trap card?

The card says to place it on an empty space.

Thanks

Since the only things that can stop a familiar are closed doors and stairs, I would say that it´s legal to place some scything blades (or ice for that matter) on top of a familiar ("Look at all the bright feathers - luckily Sharr cannot be harmed"). Shadowsoul could be an exception, though, I´m not sure.

Then again, the definition of an empty space changed over time. Would it be allowed to spawn on top of a familiar (except Boggs of course)?

galonso said:

The space is not empty, it has a familiar in it. It really is that simple. The only thing that can be in a space and still count the space as empty is corrupted terrain, as specified by FAQ.

Being unaffected by the trap is utterly irrelevant as to whether the space is empty or not.

Life and Descent rules are never that easy.

The space with the familiar is not empty for purposes of playing/triggering a trap card when a hero moves onto that space, that much is clear.

Spawning is excluded for spaces with figures or obstacles in it, naming pit, rubble, water as examples. It is explicitly allowed for spaces with other tokens or encounter markers, thus I assume it is allowed on familiar tokens as well.

Regarding placing a multi-space trap token, things are less clear (unless I missed some other rulings).

See the following basic rule:

Figures may pass through spaces occupied by friendly
figures during movement, but they cannot attack while
in the same space as another figure and they must end
their movement in an empty space .

You would never be able to end your movement on a familiar, a chest, a glyph, or even an encounter marker, if you read "empty" as "completely empty or corrupted" for all purposes.

Parathion said:

Good catch.

That is clearly an archaic rule, probably unedited from a preproduction version, as figures are very clearly allowed to end their move on a glyph and/or encounter marker, almost as clearly allowed to end on most familiars (as there are some that uniquely do not allow some figures to end on them).
Almost, this is the screwup that proves the rule.

However, it is quite clear that the familiar makes a space non-empty for the purposes of playing a trap card. Not sure why multispace trap tokens are relevent here - it is only the space being moved into that must be empty, not any o fthe other spaces under a token,

Corbon said:

Err, that´s what the question was all about in the first place - may the familiar be covered by a multi-space scything blade, dart field or ice token, which was correctly played and triggered when a hero moved onto an empty (non-familiar containing) space?

Parathion said:

Umm, not what the thread start says now at least? There is no mention of any space except the one the hero is moving into on the card, and thus, none in the original question.

Just to be clear, only the space being moved into by the hero (the 'trigger space', if you like) must be 'empty', other spaces covered by a multspace trap do not have to be empty (and thus may contain a familiar).

galonso said:

Umm, unless the OP wanted to say "play" it was fairly clear to me that the placement of the token was meant - which requires "empty spaces" as well.

The character moved onto an empty space and her familiar was one space in front of her. I wanted to place the blades covering her and the familiar (to block the path to a chest). We ended up ruling that the familiar space is not empty and placed the blades on her and the space behind her.

Parathion said:

Scything Blades
Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space . Place a two-space scything blades token so that it overlaps that space , is completely on the board, and isn't overlapping any obstacles . Any figures in the spaces filled by the scything blades are affected as though they had moved into a space containing the scything blade.

Quite clearly, the only space referred to on the card as empty is the one the hero moves onto. Other spaces need only be free of obstacles (and implicitly may contain figures and therefore be non-empty).

Amusingly, you were right anyway. OP didn't write what he meant. I bow to a superior level of perception.
Given the level of mind reading demonstrated I may have to reconsider any time you might claim knowledge of 'designers intent'.

galonso said:

You were correct that the familiar space is not empty, but it is not required to be by the card. The 'trigger space' must be empty (other than the hero moving into it) and all other spaces must be free of obstacles , which is not at all the same as non-empty.
Indeed, since there are instructions for figures (plural) who may be under the trap (and as the trigger space must be empty only the triggering hero can be in it, so any other heroes must be under other spaces of the trap token) it is implied that other spaces of the trap token may be placed under figures. So the other spaces are not only not explicitly required to be empty but also clearly expected to sometimes be non-empty.

Corbon said:

I didn't have the card in front of me when I made the original post. Sorry if my question was unclear. Thanks for everyone's help.