So, I'm having a crisis.

Regionals are right around the corner. I'll be using my "Bloodied Spear" fleet, because I know how to fly it... mostly. But I've hit some stumbling blocks.

EDIT: Ship titles including 'Relentless', 'Demolisher' and 'Instigator' aren't showing up for some reason, but they are there. Non-Flagship Gladiator is 'Demolisher'.

1) I still don't have a steep enough bid for initiative, which I really rely on.

2) I've been out-fightered twice now. Once, when up against a Rhymer Ball, and twice when an Ackbar fleet had four squadrons of A-Wings, and used them to out-deploy me.

3) My Relentless is beautiful and I love her. But she isn't kicking out enough damage for her points.

4) Turns out I'm really bad at "Intel Sweep" and need to get better.

I've now had some dark thoughts.

First off, I need at least two more TIE Fighter squadrons to maintain deployment advantage. With two more fighters, I feel a lot more comfortable dropping Instigator on my Raider, which I haven't used once.

Secondly - change Relentless so that she's a Mark-1, dropping both Electronic Countermeasures and SW-7 Ion Cannons? Possibly taking Leading Shots because it's awesome?

If I do, then I run the risk of her getting murdered to death, with too few defensive options. That being said, I've been very effectively Intel Officered in my last few games, losing defensive options anyway. And Relentless can TANK when I need her to.

There are already a few topics on both ECMs and the differences between the marks of Imperial-class ships, but they're scattered and a bit too theory-based.

So I want to know, based on actual games played and experience with these ships, should I downgrade Relentless? Has anyone got any experience running both versions of the ISD, with measurable differences? Was it the case that when you had an ISD-1, you often wished you had an ISD-2 with ECMs?

Cheers guys, y'all are the best.

I'll provide my 2 cents:

1) why no demolisher? haven't you read on these forums it's the bomb? Just joking, but still, with your setup it's the best upgrade ever IMO.

2) The problem with ISD 2 is it costs sooo much for what it does. Sure, it's a terryfing sight on the battlefield and a really tough nut to crack, but in my experience it rarely pays back its cost. Of course, its uses do not end with blowing up enemy ships, because it soakes up a lot of fire and denies a large part of the battlefield to everybody but the most foolish ships, but ISD 1 does that too: that plus some more pain in the form of black dice. If I were you, I'd downgrade it, and maybe change some upgrades too (the most obvious: leading shots over sw7).

3) what is Screed doing in a naked GSD?

4) I don't think you really need more squadrons; instigator can cover that when it matters, such as big bomber wings waiting to ambush.

5) Objectives: pick the good ones! I understand you are bidding to go first, but you need to prepare for those times when your opponent has a higher bid. I really dislike hyperspace assault, as it keeps you from using that 4th activation on the first turn, and that's bad. Plus, you really only have a semi naked GSD to do that, and when black dices are involved your exit point often is obvious.

6) insidious title is only 3 points: when I make a dual GSD list, I always take it. The surprise muthafucka effect when your opponent thinks his precious ship has escaped to safety but you remember him of the lone GSD that's been flying in circles apparently aimlessly for the whole game is actually insidious in really priceless.

Anyway, this is what I'd do with the same ships and slightly different upgrades: http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=21373

Other variations of my list include swapping leading shots for ord experts on Relentless (it's a matter of preference, really: remember that side arc doesn't have blue dices), swapping ACM for APT all around (and grab some more points for initiative bid) and swapping most wanted for adv. gunnery, as an ISD 1 double front arc tap can't be forgotten.

I've ran both ISD's and the ISD1 is not all bad but don't put too many upgrades on her. I think you should drop down to a 1, ditch needa and add intel officer to her with leading shots and X17's. With that combo and Screed you will be averaging around 8-10 damage from close range. As you said Intel Officer is very popular in a lot of meta's so that nice brace will often get negated anyway. The key is you need to hold her back and let your Glads divide your enemies focus. She may get focused down but that means your Glads have done their damage. Second you really really need Demolisher. What is the point of the high initiative bid to go first if you don't take the best upgrade for your Glad's. I am not sure if you have access to APT's but I would highly consider them instead of ACM's on your Raider. 4 Ties does wonders for tieing up some enemy bombers and you do need the additional deployments. I would get rid of Intel sweep for dangerous territory or even minefields. If you get out bid for first it will likely only be against someone running some kind of high activation swarm so you will likely want to play more defensive and force them into you.

Just a quick heads-up guys: Demolisher is part of the fleet, on the non-flagship Gladiator - for some reason, none of the titles are showing up, including Relentless and Instigator. Must be a bug with Warlords, as the points value is showing up correctly.

Just a quick heads-up guys: Demolisher is part of the fleet, on the non-flagship Gladiator - for some reason, none of the titles are showing up, including Relentless and Instigator. Must be a bug with Warlords, as the points value is showing up correctly.

Oh yeah. Warlords does that sometimes to saved fleets.

As Miedomeda mentioned, design your objectives to counter fleets that would likely try to outbid you. Right now that's only likely to be swarm fleets with high activations, I.E. 5-6 Raiders or CR90's. I woudl take Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, and Minefields for that reason.

As Miedomeda mentioned, design your objectives to counter fleets that would likely try to outbid you. Right now that's only likely to be swarm fleets with high activations, I.E. 5-6 Raiders or CR90's. I woudl take Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, and Minefields for that reason.

See, this is really good. Everyone says "Nooooo, don't pick Advanced Gunnery, MC80s love it!" But you're right, an Ackbar fleet isn't going to be out-bidding me any time soon, which means I get the advantage. Good point.

As Miedomeda mentioned, design your objectives to counter fleets that would likely try to outbid you. Right now that's only likely to be swarm fleets with high activations, I.E. 5-6 Raiders or CR90's. I woudl take Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, and Minefields for that reason.

See, this is really good. Everyone says "Nooooo, don't pick Advanced Gunnery, MC80s love it!" But you're right, an Ackbar fleet isn't going to be out-bidding me any time soon, which means I get the advantage. Good point.

I actually recommend that you not take Advanced Gunnery if you're trying to counter MSU builds. Sure it gives you a double tap, but it also doubles the points value of the ship you're putting it on. That means you're either flying a 250-300-point ISD (if you're putting it on the big hitter), or you're getting an extra ~2.5 damage out of a 110-point Raider.

If you're pretty confident in that ISD's ability to 1-shot small ships and want the ability to kill lots of them fast, just take Gunnery Teams instead and don't hand the swarm free points.

There really aren't any good options for red objectives against MSU lists--I pretty much always pick the red objective with my CR90 swarm. Most Wanted is about the least bad one to take IMO, because you can designate which adversary ship is either out of the fight or first to die, but it's still costing you either points or the opportunity cost of leaving your Raider out of the fight entirely to protect him.

As Miedomeda mentioned, design your objectives to counter fleets that would likely try to outbid you. Right now that's only likely to be swarm fleets with high activations, I.E. 5-6 Raiders or CR90's. I woudl take Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, and Minefields for that reason.

See, this is really good. Everyone says "Nooooo, don't pick Advanced Gunnery, MC80s love it!" But you're right, an Ackbar fleet isn't going to be out-bidding me any time soon, which means I get the advantage. Good point.

I actually recommend that you not take Advanced Gunnery if you're trying to counter MSU builds. Sure it gives you a double tap, but it also doubles the points value of the ship you're putting it on. That means you're either flying a 250-300-point ISD (if you're putting it on the big hitter), or you're getting an extra ~2.5 damage out of a 110-point Raider.

If you're pretty confident in that ISD's ability to 1-shot small ships and want the ability to kill lots of them fast, just take Gunnery Teams instead and don't hand the swarm free points.

There really aren't any good options for red objectives against MSU lists--I pretty much always pick the red objective with my CR90 swarm. Most Wanted is about the least bad one to take IMO, because you can designate which adversary ship is either out of the fight or first to die, but it's still costing you either points or the opportunity cost of leaving your Raider out of the fight entirely to protect him.

This is a good point. It does suck if you lose your ISD and only took out their advanced gunnery ship worth less than half the points of your ISD. In short if you have Advanced Gunnery you better deploy in a way to protect your ISD and be very careful with it. I was thinking Advanced Gunnery for 4+ activation lists so you still have options to activate ships before your ISD and are able to cover the flanks of your ISD with 2nd player advanced gunnery goodness.

I dont seem to understand the problem. Are you not using your firepower effectively? Have you tried Vader instead of the SW-7 and leading shots (Demo can go crit fishing with Vader). Why is deployment advantage so important to you?

As a swarm player, Advanced Gunnery doesn't give me enough of an advantage to make it worthwhile. What does it give me? My objective ship can fire twice at different hull zones. So either my 51pt CR90 is firing (in magical christmas land) 6 dice over two attacks because I lined up perfectly, or my 90pt MC30 is firing 10 dice from it's side arc because (again, magicla christmas land) I'm lucky enough to pull up alongside a large base ship.

Meanwhile your ISD or your MC80 is throwing at minimum 8 red dice over 2 attacks at the same hull zone of my 102/180 point value ship.

No. The situations in which Advanced Gunnery is good for my swarm are small and difficult, while the advantage for the second player is huge and persistent.

Maybe I bring it along as my red objective? But who cares what my objectives are? I'm the swarm list. I'm bidding for first.

But I could be wrong? Can someone give an example? I love this objective.

Here is my 2 cents in what i think your list should look like.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=21407

I'm not a big fan of bidding so much just to go first...but i've managed to increase your bid with the improvements so how about that!

Summary:

- Improved the damage output and durability of your ISD2 with Wulf and Avenger. You wont need Relentless because your stack will be Nav then Eng turns 2-6. With Wulf you can change spd without losing your Nav Token or Engineering for 6 pts from turns 3-6. Avenger is a good follow up if you plan on doing the demolisher triple tap with the first player advantage.

- All small ships still have ACMs, removed ordnance experts because you'll have Screed.
- XI7s....i've found them to be more effective that HTTs but if thats your preference then thats okay

There is a little trick with intel sweep you can do with your ISD as well.....

Good luck!

There is a little trick with intel sweep you can do with your ISD as well.....

Good luck!

It's called "I have a big fat ass and it hits multiple asteroids per move." That's like telling a fat guy to knock down all the hurdles and calling it a talent.

There is a little trick with intel sweep you can do with your ISD as well.....

Good luck!

It's called "I have a big fat ass and it hits multiple asteroids per move." That's like telling a fat guy to knock down all the hurdles and calling it a talent.

I believe you may be confused with Dangerous Territory sir?

As a swarm player, Advanced Gunnery doesn't give me enough of an advantage to make it worthwhile. What does it give me? My objective ship can fire twice at different hull zones. So either my 51pt CR90 is firing (in magical christmas land) 6 dice over two attacks because I lined up perfectly, or my 90pt MC30 is firing 10 dice from it's side arc because (again, magicla christmas land) I'm lucky enough to pull up alongside a large base ship.

Moar nav. It is exceedingly easy to get that MC30 side arc shot on both front and side arcs of an ISD if you're going last/first. Rear + side is not particularly difficult either--just point your side at his corner.

Meanwhile your ISD or your MC80 is throwing at minimum 8 red dice over 2 attacks at the same hull zone of my 102/180 point value ship.

What is a swarm ship (that you expect to survive) doing close into the front arc of an ISD during the ISD's activation anyway, Advanced Gunnery notwithstanding? Boom and zoom or have some other plan.

No. The situations in which Advanced Gunnery is good for my swarm are small and difficult, while the advantage for the second player is huge and persistent.

It's good for your swarm when you trade 2x 44-point corvettes for a 300-point ISD.

Maybe I bring it along as my red objective? But who cares what my objectives are? I'm the swarm list. I'm bidding for first.

But I could be wrong? Can someone give an example? I love this objective.

I think this might be the disconnect. I'm not suggesting you take AG in your list as your own objective (Most Wanted or Precision Strike all day err'day). I'm saying you pick it if it's in the other guy's double-ISD list or whatever.

AG does less than nothing for you tactically; you're not taking it for extra shots. Getting them is nice, but somewhat incidental. You're choosing it from your adversary's objectives because it can very easily buy you 100-120 points of extra MoV if you play it right.

There is a little trick with intel sweep you can do with your ISD as well.....

Good luck!

It's called "I have a big fat ass and it hits multiple asteroids per move." That's like telling a fat guy to knock down all the hurdles and calling it a talent.

I believe you may be confused with Dangerous Territory sir?

You are correct! I was.

As a swarm player, Advanced Gunnery doesn't give me enough of an advantage to make it worthwhile. What does it give me? My objective ship can fire twice at different hull zones. So either my 51pt CR90 is firing (in magical christmas land) 6 dice over two attacks because I lined up perfectly, or my 90pt MC30 is firing 10 dice from it's side arc because (again, magicla christmas land) I'm lucky enough to pull up alongside a large base ship.

Moar nav. It is exceedingly easy to get that MC30 side arc shot on both front and side arcs of an ISD if you're going last/first. Rear + side is not particularly difficult either--just point your side at his corner.

Meanwhile your ISD or your MC80 is throwing at minimum 8 red dice over 2 attacks at the same hull zone of my 102/180 point value ship.

What is a swarm ship (that you expect to survive) doing close into the front arc of an ISD during the ISD's activation anyway, Advanced Gunnery notwithstanding? Boom and zoom or have some other plan.

No. The situations in which Advanced Gunnery is good for my swarm are small and difficult, while the advantage for the second player is huge and persistent.

It's good for your swarm when you trade 2x 44-point corvettes for a 300-point ISD.

Maybe I bring it along as my red objective? But who cares what my objectives are? I'm the swarm list. I'm bidding for first.

But I could be wrong? Can someone give an example? I love this objective.

I think this might be the disconnect. I'm not suggesting you take AG in your list as your own objective (Most Wanted or Precision Strike all day err'day). I'm saying you pick it if it's in the other guy's double-ISD list or whatever.

AG does less than nothing for you tactically; you're not taking it for extra shots. Getting them is nice, but somewhat incidental. You're choosing it from your adversary's objectives because it can very easily buy you 100-120 points of extra MoV if you play it right.

I will have to run some more practice games and see how it plays out. That's the sweet thing about Armada. Playing a thing once doesn't solve it. You have to play it multiple times to get the feel for it, even if you think you "know" how to fly your list.

You're right about the shoot and scoot bit. But you're telling me you never have games where you mis judge your position a little and end up in a front arc? ever?

Some stuff

Other stuff

I will have to run some more practice games and see how it plays out. That's the sweet thing about Armada. Playing a thing once doesn't solve it. You have to play it multiple times to get the feel for it, even if you think you "know" how to fly your list.

You're right about the shoot and scoot bit. But you're telling me you never have games where you mis judge your position a little and end up in a front arc? ever?

NEVER.

I was more pointing out that you shouldn't be putting your swarmy objective ship near the front arc of an ISD/side arc of an MC80 objective ship at all. I explained it poorly, but in my concept, you would play the objective ship relatively conservatively to preserve points while aggressively tackling the opponent's objective ship to milk it for points. Not saying leave it out of the fight, but it's obviously going to be outclassed by the adversary's objective ship, so maybe you would send it off to plink off a flanker or to itself flank, rather than charging into the middle of the fray.