Hey everyone,

I haven't been able to find an answer to this question, so I thought I'd pose it here.

Say Leoric of the Book (8 health normally) is wearing Leather Armor, and so has an effective health of 9. He also has suffered 8 damage.

At the start of his turn, he unequips his armor. Is he immediately defeating himself?

The rules say that a hero is defeated when they suffer damage equal to or greater than their health. This suggests to me they must suffer damage in order for the defeat condition to be tested against. The changing of their Health value doesn't actually result in any damage suffered. Perhaps then, they are not defeated?

I'm not sure how to go with this. I think its silly that a hero would keel over by removing armor, but having more damage on you than your health is strange as well.

This question could extend to monsters too. For example, Ardus Ix'erebus has a plot card which changes a minion monster's health to match a master monster's, but only for a single turn. If that card is active and a minion monster has suffered damage in excess of a minion's normal health, do they die once their health total reverts back to normal?

I know I've read a somewhat related ruling about stamina. If the heroes' stamina value drops below the amount of fatigue suffered, then the excess fatigue still remains on the hero until they rest or recover it through some other means, even if the stamina value could no longer support that much fatigue.

I would say that the hero is defeated. The ruling is clearly intended that you are defeated when the damage tokens on your hero sheet equal your health. Either way, it has complications. Can a Leoric with 8 damage unequip the leather armor and equip another piece of armor that raises his health?

I actually disagree - I regard armour bonuses as raising the maximum amount of HP a character can have, so removing the armour doesn't kill someone that is at 1HP, but just lowers their maximum.

At least that's how it usually works in similar rpgs I have played. Also seems a bit silly that someone would die by undressing

I actually disagree - I regard armour bonuses as raising the maximum amount of HP a character can have, so removing the armour doesn't kill someone that is at 1HP, but just lowers their maximum.

At least that's how it usually works in similar rpgs I have played. Also seems a bit silly that someone would die by undressing

It is also silly that somehow leather armor offers any kind of protection:p

You are defeated when your health equals the damage on your hero sheet. This almost always occurs when you add damage to your sheet, but can definitely also occur if your health decreases.

If Leoric has 8 damage on his hero sheet and his health is 9, he will be defeated if he takes one damage OR if his health is reduced to 8. I would argue that this even happens if he is swapping armor. Since he can't have 2 armors equipped, he must unequip one before equipping the other.

You are defeated when your health equals the damage on your hero sheet. This almost always occurs when you add damage to your sheet, but can definitely also occur if your health decreases.

Alrighty Thanks Zaltyre. Do you have a source btw? Would be good for future reference.

The rulebook, where it says when you have a number of damage tokens on your sheet equal to your health you are defeated

I also can say (though it is not the same exactly) that it has been addressed in an FFG response that when you unequip the ring of power, your stamina drops back to its normal value. If you had excess fatigue on your hero sheet, they stay there until you rest (so you could have 6 fatigue on your sheet with a stamina of 5. You either have to rest to clear them all, or otherwise recover 2 before you can spend a fatigue again. My point is that when your stamina drops by 1, your fatigue does not also drop by 1.

Regarding the health, let me ask it as a question: If leoric has suffered 8 health, then unequips the leather armor... how much health does he have remaining? What if it were runeplate, which adjusts health by 2 and he had suffered 9 before removing it?

Of course, in the first case he'd have 0 health remaining, and in the second he'd have negative 1. How would you propose to deal with the second case (if he heals 1 he is knocked out?)

That's absurd, which is why the rules are written the way they are- if you ever have damage on your sheet equal to your health, stick a fork in you, you are done.

The following places in the rulebook mention defeat:

Page 13:

5. Deal Damage

... "If this damage ever equals or exceeds the figure's Health, the figure is defeated"... (emphasis mine)

This suggests that this particular test for defeat occurs when combat damage is dealt.

Page 15:

Defeated

When a hero or monster suffers damage equal to or greater than its Health, it is defeated. (emphasis mine)

This again, suggests that the test for defeat occurs when damage is suffered. Not at other times. If the text had instead read as: "When a hero or monster has damage equal to or greater than its health.." then I would be in full agreement with you.

Now, for the the Runeplate example, if Leoric were not defeated, then he would be a character with 8 health, that has 9 damage tokens on him. Should he suffer any additional damage, then he fulfills the condition of "suffering damage equal to or greater than " his health.

Pedantic? Perhaps. But Descent has very finicky rules in certain areas, and I've played plenty of RPGs (mostly video games, admittedly) in which a creature cannot 'defeat' itself by having its maximum HP drop. Most of those RPGs simply reduce the creature's current HP to 1 in such cases, and any additional damage defeats them.

Descent could be interpreted as doing a variation of this if going strictly by RAW. Hence why I was looking for an official ruling.

I think the stamina ruling that both you and I mentioned supports this possibility, rather than detracts from it, in that it is possible for a figure to have received more tokens on them in the past than they should now legally be allowed to have.

An interesting side effect, in both cases, is that more recovery is now required than normal to restore them to a fully healthy state.

Example: Leoric has equiped a Ring of Power and has suffered 6 fatigue.

Then he unequips the Ring of Power (stamina drops from 6 to 5).

He now has to recover 6 points of fatigue to be fully recovered, despite the fact that his stamina is now 5.

I'll submit the question to FFG for official clarification. I do not have it as a rules response, but there was a quest where a monster's bonus health disappeared (I do not remember exactly, it may have been a corrupt citizen card) but that monster was very definetely defeated.

Trying to think about a situation when a hero would defeat a monster and die by his/her own attack, when defeating the monster would grant the hero a search card into treasure chest into an armor giving extra health. But Mimic grants the card to the closest hero, which has to be somebody else.

Edit: And you wouldn't even be able to equip it anyway, so nevermind. Although Zaltyre has very likely designed a custom quest with that very mechanic just to mess up with us, though

The following question has been submitted:

My take is strictly as written in the rules if your health drops below or equal to your damage count you are not defeated but if you attempt to claim that in a game you are being a real jerk as that is clearly the intent.

FFG does a decent job at the rules but sometimes you just have to use common since and not be a idiot about things. One of my favorite examples are quests that say "if a hero defeats ___". When the OL just blood rages the monster and now its impossible for the heroes to win...

If the people you are playing with are not going just do the obvious thing when your health gets reduced to equal or less than your damage you are go to have a really unpleasant time playing decent.

BTW a related follow up question to this one is if a defeated hero is healed but the amount healed is not enough to lower your damage below your health what happens? The easiest way for that to happen is with the armor that gives you +2 health when you have 4+ book and you end up getting -1 book on the MoB affect on death.

You are defeated when your health equals the damage on your hero sheet. This almost always occurs when you add damage to your sheet, but can definitely also occur if your health decreases.

If Leoric has 8 damage on his hero sheet and his health is 9, he will be defeated if he takes one damage OR if his health is reduced to 8. I would argue that this even happens if he is swapping armor. Since he can't have 2 armors equipped, he must unequip one before equipping the other.

I haven't thought that through at all - I think you're absolutely right!

Zaltyre also raises a good point about skills.

I believe it is the SoN campaign quest Nightmares that allows the OL to remove skills from the players (for the duration of the quest)

What happens if you have damage equal to your health, but you have a skill that grants you a bonus... and the OL removes it through a quest specific rule.... Would the hero be knocked out? Would the OL gain threat?

Zaltyre also raises a good point about skills.

I believe it is the SoN campaign quest Nightmares that allows the OL to remove skills from the players (for the duration of the quest)

What happens if you have damage equal to your health, but you have a skill that grants you a bonus... and the OL removes it through a quest specific rule.... Would the hero be knocked out? Would the OL gain threat?

My position (we'll know when FFG responds) is that the hero would indeed be KO. Everything would occur normally since that hero was defeated.

First things first. How can someone unequip an ARMOR just like that? Not too realistic, heh? Unless, he/she was so tired that taking out his/her amor made they faint

I would not suggest/allow heroes to equip armor during an encounter.

I would not suggest/allow heroes to equip armor during an encounter.

What? So if the first search token reveals a treasure chest and gives the heroes a better armor, you wouldn't allow them to use it until the next quest?

Just like a weapon or another item, armor can be equipped/unequipped after start of turn/before perform actions step.

I would not suggest/allow heroes to equip armor during an encounter.

By the rules, they are allowed to do this, so I don't think this should be barred. This is also a very useful strategy when playing with someone like Nanok of the Blade. He can equip the armor on rounds where he needs more defense, and take it off when he wants to use his heroic ability.

I lost a quest featuring Ariad because of this item handover mechanism, so it's definitely useful.

The heroes found some powerful sword thanks to Treasure Chest, and slayed Ariad to pieces with it by handing it over to each character in turn (they all were at melee range). Even if they had to waste move actions on this, it was still worth it to be able to attack 4 times (actually more because of feats and fortune tokens) with a RRB weapon instead of taking weaker shots from distance. I really need to find out what this weapon was but it was a blood bath.

Zaltyre also raises a good point about skills.

I believe it is the SoN campaign quest Nightmares that allows the OL to remove skills from the players (for the duration of the quest)

What happens if you have damage equal to your health, but you have a skill that grants you a bonus... and the OL removes it through a quest specific rule.... Would the hero be knocked out? Would the OL gain threat?

My position (we'll know when FFG responds) is that the hero would indeed be KO. Everything would occur normally since that hero was defeated.

I don't disagree, but you have to admit that a hero who was knocked out in this fashion, by having a skill removed, might be a bit... peeved... at the OL. Faint hearted heroes might even rage-quit the game.

The hero might indeed be peeved. However, in my experience (the one time I've played "Nightmares") the heroes already didn't like the prospect of having 1 skill card flipped down every turn. However, they still wound up winning the quest and after it was over we all had a good laugh. Beer probably helped.

I actually disagree - I regard armour bonuses as raising the maximum amount of HP a character can have, so removing the armour doesn't kill someone that is at 1HP, but just lowers their maximum.

At least that's how it usually works in similar rpgs I have played. Also seems a bit silly that someone would die by undressing

I would say you were right if Descent was like most RPG's, but Descent isn't like most RPG's. Normally your health gets removed, but in Descent you receive damage. This sounds the same but is quite different. In the case that Descent was a 'normal' RPG, Leoric equipped with leather armor would have a max hp of 9, and a remaining health of 1. And by removing the leather armor he just reduced his max hp to 8, but still having 1 health remaining.

But in Descent, where you add damage, he keeps that 8 damage on his frail wizard body at all time. And if his maximum health drops that 8 damage are coming back around and knock him out.