I've been looking into Dark Heresy with curiosity and now Rogue Trader has recently hit my branch of Forbidden Planet in Nottingham. Is Rogue Trader any fun to play or GM? Does it follow any literary traditions in the Black Library, much like Dark Heresy did with the Ravenor series? Please post your own opinions and answers.

Rogue Star and Star of Damocles are novels centered around Rogue Traders.

As for buying RT, only if you already have DH, if you dont have DH, then in my opinion, you need to get it fast.

I'll be honest, RT has not inspired or really impressed me much. Its a nice book, some good stuff in it, but nothing that made me want to switc from DH.

ThulmannFan87 said:

It certainly is, but I'd advise getting DH and the sourcebooks for it too, because they provide a hefty chunk opf useful information for RT as well.

The thing is, Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy are so completely different in setting. Dark Heresy is excellent for secret agent style campaigns with lots of cloak and dagger and paranoia to them. Basically a war against the enemies of mankind, but a covert war with plenty of unsung heroics that will never be known by the Imperial public.

Rogue Trader on the other hand is more about adventure and profit. What I like about Rogue Trader is the fact that while it could have devolved into a ridiculous game about sheer munchkinism, it's actually done in a quite cool and interesting way. If you simplified it you Rogue Trader could merely be about dungeoun crawling and treasure hunting (but you switch the "dungeons" for "unwknown star systems with alien ruins" instead), but you'd have to be pretty lacking in the imagination department as a GM if that's all your Rogue Trader campaigns will be about.

But the good thing is that the PC's don't need much in the way of viable reasons for sticking together, because all of them are ultimately out for adventure and profit. Other RPG's tend to have pretty forced and far fetched reasons for why the elf left his home and stuck with his "fantasy buddies" and doing "adventures" in the service of mysterious old men offering them tasks at shady taverns. But in Rogue Trader, everyone will pretty much have a solid reason for cruising around the galaxy in search for treasure and riches, without ever get that familiar feeling of everything being too far fetched or awkward.

This will make it pretty easy for the GM to come up with campaigns and hooks to getting the PC's sucked into them. Just toss them a treasure map or some other indications for hidden riches out there and they'll go chasing after it. It can be a bit more fun for the GM and the players rather than the Dark Heresy method, where the PC's are mostly just ordered around by the Gm (i.e their Inquisitor) to do stuff, with little hopes of rewards or other enticing offers.

Apart from that you can have scenarios about the Rogue Trader dynasty and politics and the many tasks and difficulties in running their entire enterprise.

Then of course there's the interesting aspects of exploring the unknown and coming into contact with pretty freakish and alien things.

Apart from that, Rogue Trader is a lot more centred around the player characters and their decisions. They don't normally answer to a higher authority like PC's do in Dark Heresy, where they get assigned to missions which have to be completed. This will add diversity to the game and the PC's arent under so much preassure and scrutiny like DH characters are.

Just to make an example, in Dark Heresy, some PC's might be tempted to steal the xenos weaponry from the dead eldar they just fought and beat, hoping either to keep the weapons or sell them at the black market. But those plans might be thwarted pretty often, either due to having a boring puritan Inquisitor who would confiscate such goods immediately and punish the PC's for trying to smuggle xenos artifats under his radar, or because one or two of the PC's are equally boring puritans who wouldn't hesitate to snitch on their more radical colleagues.

Quite simply, due to different citcumstances, the composition of player characters and their boss in Dark Heresy can ruin much potential for interesting scenarios regarding radicalism and damnation. Sure hunting down and burning enemies of the Imperium can be fun for a while, but if everyone's a puritan all the time then there won't be much risk for damnation and the lure of tainted powers.

In Rogue Trader, PC's would often find themselves subjected to alien and tainted powers, and they would often be so well away from Imperial authorities that they could easily smuggle, use and deal xenos artifacts and other tainted baubels. In fact, refusing to wouldn't be the "Adventure and profit!"-way at all.

And that's just one aspect out of many which differentiates Rogue Trader from Dark Heresy, story and gaming-wise.

All in all, I highly recommend Rogue Trader. But of course I can't be sure that everyone will like it, since the quality of any RPG will largely depend on the imagination of the GM. Some GM's might have trouble with inventing interesting scenarios for certain games, so it mostly depends on what you think you'll be able to do with the setting or not...

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well, are you the GM or a player?

If you're primarily the former, what are you gonna do when or if your players get fed up with being bossed around by the Inquisition and want to have their own starship and spend their days hunting for treasure and adventure in the uncharted terretories of the galaxy?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Sell them into slavery with the Dark Eldar for complaining! No, my guys already do this more or less. I run the campaign more free from the low life levels of DH as is. I do plan to incorporate aspects from RT, but my overall emotion toward RT is "eh, its ok."

The careers dont inspire me, infact they leave me flat. The info on the Expanse is good, but Id like to see how that affects some of the critters form CA and what not in the future.

While I think the new psy rules work and work within the main system rules, I dont like the change as it makes it less compatible, but I can deal with that.

What I do love is the chargen rules, which I am definately stealing.

Overall, I just prefer Inquisitor based story lines. And this is a fine sourcebook for my needs.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, that is getting sort of a problem in my group. We recently made characters for RT so that we can play it when someone of our DH is not present (the 'alternative program' as we call it (had been WFRP with Skaven PCs, D&D and Hero Quest in the past )). The problem is my players had so much fun developing characters and having ideas for their endeavours, I fear they could favour it compared to DH. After all, in RT they have a starship (I repeat: STARSHIP!!) as well as Power Swords and Inferno/Plasma Pistols right from the start...

My real problem is I do not feel so well with developing adventures for RT than for DH, and I have a well planed out campaign for the latter..

Luthor Harkon said:

Don't worry, all players will soon come to realize that collecting fictional weapons and starships and such will eventually get old as well. In fact, I've found this to be a good remedy for groups of players who are starting to incline a bit too much towards munchkinism in general.

So if you're playing games like DH whith strong emphasis on character development and drama, and you notice the players are only interested in getting: "moe expee's and kewl lootz an killin' dem aliens n' heretics!"

Remind them of the importance of the struggle and why it's fun to struggle (at least in fictional settings). When they pester you with questions like:

"Can I have a multimelta?"

"Can I get extra XP?"

"Can I get a power armour?"

Simply play along for a while and just saturate them with improbable loot and amounts of XP, and watch the hilarious results as it dawns upon the poor munchkins when they stand their in their full sets of ultra-kick-ass power armour, armed to the teeth with power fists, assault cannons, legendary power swords, daemon weapons, halo devices and other mystical super powers, with 30.000 experience points. The symptoms you will witness is a slight vacant look in their eyes, the stare at their character sheets completely dumbfounded. They can see all the stuff they've written and they know how badass their characters have suddenly become, but they don't "feel" anything anymore. They don't feel the same excitement that they used to feel when they were lowly level 1 PC's who just found their first bolt pistol or chain sword.

Like king Osric said in Conan the Barbarian (the cult classic movie that is, unfortunately I haven't read the books yet):

-"There comes a time, thief, when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the gold loses its luster, when the throne room becomes a prison, and all that is left is a father's love for his child."

(I'd like to mention that this is one of my two favourite quotes from this movie. The other quote being:

-"Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!")

But in the case of roleplayers you switch the "father's love for a child"-part with "a player's love for an engaging story, struggling against bad odds and the experience of adventure."

That's how you cure bad cases of munchkinism. Because ultimately it doesn't matter how many starships or master crafted bolters you have in a game. The illusion of owning these things might provide you with an sense of power and the high that comes from it. but ultimately these things don't exist in the real world and it doesn't matter how many bolters or starships you have on a piece of paper in a make-believe world. What does exist however is your memories and experiences of the fictional setting that you've had. But if they ever become homogenous and dull, then they will quickly get old and the game won't be as fun anymore.

Which is why it is impossible to play Rogue Trader exactly all the time, because pimpin' it out with starships, power swords and inferno pistols can also get old and stale. But if you mix things up with playing different games, then the hobby will go on for as long as your imagination can take it.

I think RT is a game which needs far more input from the GM than DH.

DH has some good scenarios and adventures already, and plenty of character development options (in the Inquisitor's Handbook for example.) Partly as a result of the larger number of supplements, but also because of the narrower focus and smaller scale, a GM for DH can hit the ground running with most of the work done for him. "You wake up and you're in a red cage."

RT on the other hand - if run as the writers appear to intend - will require a great deal of "blue booking" between players and GM before the game even starts. You have to generate your characters, then work on a combined background, then work together to generate your ship. The GM really should be overseeing this process to avoid Munchkinism.

Haven't run it yet, though, I must admit... So take my opinions with a pinch of salt!

Lightbringer said:

But isn't that really the thing with Rogue Trader? I mean, the PC's pretty much start out as munchkins (they BEGIN with a friggin starship and some seriously good quality firepower and armour), which is actually good for a change because the game pretty much assumes that the PC's will be "overpowered" so the GM doesn't have to pull any punches when designing evil NPC's and other threats to send the PC's way.

It will also take some focus from gathering and collecting guns and armour of ultimate awesome for the players because it's almost boring to scavenge for such things because all characters have access to them from the get go.

Quite simply, the in-built aspects of munchkinism from the very start, ironically serves to focus the game on other things than munchkinism. Which is great in my opinion (both from a GM and player standpoint). One can focus more on a good story and character development because no one will have to worry about the chance of getting their grubby hands on a multi melta or a power armour. It just won't concern anyone.

Both as a GM and a player I much prefer RT to DH. A little because of the large scope, I can never help feeling like im just off on endless tasks for a behind the curtain inquisitor in DH, and that what my character does doesn't really matter.

But as both a player and a GM I feel its greatest strength is the potential to be so much more player-driven than DH. I'm too tired to give a long post about this right now, but RT is the system i've been most excited about in years, and i've pretty much played them all.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, yes, you are absolutely right in your description and I feel in the same way. It is one of the reasons my players only rarely got their hands on any magical weapons or other high-fantasy stuff in my WFRP campaign. I simply fear they will never feel any (game-realted) excitement anymore after such an demostration of 'improbable loot'. Won't they be spoiled for good?

Varnias Tybalt said:

That is one of the reasons we play (or plan to play) RT as our 'alternative program' when one of the players is indisposed. While DH is down-to-earth, gritty, stark, unforgiving, in-the-face, dystopic and has a 'we don't want to actually be here' feeling, RT is aloof, pompous, flashy, bodacious and has a 'to boldly go where no man has gone before' feeling (even though it still has the 40K-feeling...). Anyway, RT all the time would make me go crazy...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Actually, this seem to be true even in real life where people get bored faster and faster by their huge high-end flatscreen whatever, whereas a hungry person would value a piece of dry bread higher than most would caviar.

Anyway, as I said, I fear I could cure munchkinism, but kill the patient thereby...

Luthor Harkon said:

Aww, gosh darn it! You found me out!

Yes there was a piece real life wisdom in my earlier post, but I assure you that this time my intention was just to debate gaming. Or was it?

Luthor Harkon said:

Well you could simply have a sit down with your players and talk about these things rather than "showing" them. But the thing is, some players might be too deep in the munchkin swamp to actually be able to imagine how a game could become boring when they can get their hands on all the big guns right of the bat. These people might need to be shown the results of what happens when you actually play like that.

Afterwards you can talk to them about the joy's of "being hungry and starving". Of course in real life, that's no fun at all and it is a **** shame that some people in the world are actually starving. But in an RPG it actually is fun when the characters are starving, because it gives them a purpose and drive to do things. And this will ultimately create an interesting story, and that's what you want the munchkins to learn to focus on. The story is everything, and they should view all the situations involving their characters as they would view a movie or read a book.

When they learn to do that, they won't really care about the in-game mechanics for weapons and armour. Sure they might want to kit out their characters with these things, but for good reasons like fitting the character concept and such.

It will also make them be less concerned over their characters in-game death, because as we all know, the death of a character in a movie or book can actually enhance the story and make the viewer/reader more involved with it.

Anyway, either have a talk with the players about this, or if they don't believe you, show them what happens and how boring the game will get if you're only treating the game like a loot-hunting and monster killing game. It can't be too much fun to just sit around and roll dice all the time.

Getting involved with the story and focusing on the roleplaying on the other hand, never gets old for some reason.

At minimum, the Rogue Trader rulebook will be useful for a DH Game Master as it will give you guidelines for allies & adversaries your players may interact with... including Rogue Traders, Navigators & Astropaths, sentient Xenos (Eldar Corsairs & their weapons, ditto to Ork Freebooterz & Kroot mercenaries).

Additionally, should your DH adventures branch out into the Halo Stars, the Koronus Expanse info will at least be somewhat useful to you.

Rogue Trader may be the best "supplement" for Dark Heresy that you can buy, not even considering the potentials for a Rogue Trader game as compared to the Dark Heresy style of game.

Well, for my part, this is the game I've been waiting for since WFRP 1E and WH40k Rogue Trader came out. You might say its my 'Reeses' game. It is definately on another scale, but I don't think it's as extreme as all that. Basically, instead of starting out as a sailor on Drake's ship the Golden Hind (DH), you're actually getting to play Drake and his command crew (RT). Decide which of those you think would be more fun and there you go. If you want the true opposite scale from DH, you're looking at Death Watch, the third in the series whenever it comes out...

You should purchase Rogue Trader.

Then you should purchase whatever Alien Tome comes out for it.

If DH is what you want to run/play then I'd only suggest getting RT after you've picked up everything for the DH line itself. At the least, DH products will be 100% compatible with one another right away and usable without any real work on the mechanics. RT is a bit different in how some of the Talents work, moderately different in mutations and some of the combat rules, and massively different in character creation, psykers, and equipment purchase/acquisition. And you get starships - which don't really matter to most DH PCs at all except as setting elements. Not that these areas of change can't be smoothed over with a bit of work, but if it's DH you really want then you can't really go wrong with DH purchases (except perhaps for the horrible adventure in the GM screen...).

I think the real answer to your question is: What sort of games does your play group enjoy?

Do they like gritty, low-powered adventuring where they have to scrap for the right gear to fight off the daemons? Then Dark Heresy is the game for you.

Do they like being movers and shakers, leading others, plotting intrigue, and battling with starships? Then Rogue Trader is the one.

One further 'problem' I have with Rogue Trader is that it assumes the PC's are a homgenous entity. This is by the way one of the major flaws I see even more inh WFRP 3rd edition. In DH on the other hand they are often a very heterogenous bunch of people who work together because they have to and it most probably prolongs their life expectancy, not because they chose to or because they like each other so much. Some of the best RP experiences my group and I had in the past years (almost decades...) were because the group is not a single entity but a group where everyone has different goals and agendas. IN DH for example the Arbitrator is still somehow responsible to the AA and the Divisio Immoralis, the Guardsman still feels loyal to the IG, the Assassin still works for the Sons of Dispater, the Tech-Priset is first of all loyal to the Omnissiah and the Machine Cult and the Psyker feels affiliated to the AAT. All this leads to great RP oppurtunities and intrigues...

Erm... when does RT assume that? None of the characters in any of the three RT games I'm running are "homogenous", they all have their own plans, they just happen to share the same ship and need each other to keep the ship running. Just because they are the head honchos on the ship doesn't mean they have to like each other.

Luthor Harkon said:

Well, running a functional Rogue Traders dynasty is a business venture that requires a solid commitment from the key players within it. The starting setting of the game simply wouldn't exist if the PC's have their loyalties spread to thin, because it would cause the dynasty (or that particular branch of a dynasty) to crumble before it even starts.

MILLANDSON said:

It implies it heavily. It has nothing to do with being the 'head honchos' and I said 'the group is homogenous' instead 'any of the characters are homogenous' as such.

Simply put, you cannot be a loner within such a group as you have to stick to the rest of the group (and ship). Furthermore, RT suggests the characters have chosen to bunch together whereas in DH the Inq has chosen to so to speak. Stuff like having one ship for all and one profit factor for all is an (ruleswise) abstraction that leads to a sense that the group is a single entity (or at least a homogenous group) and not a motley crew...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Absolutely. And that is one of the main reasons why I prefer DH over RT.

RT is a certainly a great game none the less and I like it. But, for me it lacks the depth of DH and it somehow seems somehow artificial and abstracted in my view. Thus, it is appropriate for my group and me once in a while 'for fun' (ie. with a nonchalant approach), but not as our 'standard program' where we like more 'depth' as well as more RP opportunities and manifoldness.

Luthor Harkon said:

I couldn't disagree more.

In fact, im going to play quite the loner PC ("loner" is a bit of an understatement, "leper" would be more appropriate) in one RT campaign im involved in, and it's gonna be a blast.

Just take the "Tainted" aspect in the Origin Path and you'll see that the game heavily implies that the group is NOT AT ALL forced to be a homogenous entity. (most PC's and the entire crew to boot will most oftenly have something against mutants or people of a deviant philosophy).

The only thing that would be most standard to keep a group of PC's together would be for the fact that they all profit from sticking with eachother. Being a major player in a Rogue Trader dynasty is as much of a "butter zone" as it's gonna get in the Imperium of man. It's the most liberal and wealthy position you could ever hope to achieve, regardless of what type of background you have, so it would be in every PC's interest to take cooperation seriously.

But that doesn't mean that the PC's have to like eachother or even have anything in common. It doesn't prevent them from having multiple loyalties or agendas either. Remember that any given group's Profit Factor is not just something the Rogue Trader provides. While the Rogue Trader might possess the Warrant of Trade that makes the whole endavour possible, the Profit Factor is a group effort, and that group effort can be a short step away from turning into an intra-party power struggle.

So I have to say that I strongly disagree with your sentiments about Rogue Trader as a game and the group dynamic in it. Both RT and DH have potential for cutthroat intra-party conflicts and hidden agendas, the only difference between the two is that RT has got more tangible reasons for why the PC's still choose to stick together instead of the hamfisted, staple DH reason á la "You all work for the Emperors Inquisition and your Inquisitor tells you to work with eachother and you are in no position to refuse."

PC's in Rogue Trader simply have more to gain and benefit for themselves by cooperating. But there is nothing in the game that implies that they should ever refrain from backstabbings and switching loyalties. Hell some Rogue Traders are more like pirates in manners and execution, and pirates were by no means a bunch of goody two shoes "it's us against the world!" type of people, back in the day...

Hm, maybe I'm a little narrow-minded or have a tunnel view in this regard. Your statements opened my eyes a little and perhaps I simply fear that I am not creative or imaginative enough to breath life into a possible RT campaign (not that we started one yet already) - next to fearing my players would prefer the idea of a RT campiagn above a DH campaign (I could bribe them with loot though )...

In one thing I still disagree with you. The Rogue Traders are often a little like pirates in manner an execution, but in my view in a 'goody two shoes' (whatever it means) way of manner and not in a 'how they were really back in the days'. They are more like the romantic view of Francis Drake and certain bacaneers/privateers in the Golden Era then the Horn of Africa or historical type of pirates...

Luthor Harkon said:

Don't worry, im struggling with the same difficulties myself. I was in the middle of writing and preparing the second part of a campaign trilogy for Dh when Rogue Trader arrived. So far we've only played the pre-written scenarios for RT just to get the feel of it, but the transition from DH to RT as a GM is gonna be difficult, because I have to think in a new way. Still, that's no reason for me (or anyone else for that matter ) to treat either game in a less intense manner or abandon one for the other. It's still just two different flavors of awesome, and while the "new" awesome might give us all some transition pains at first, it should smooth out later on.

Also, I don't think it's explicitly stated in the rulebook but im gonna houserule it when im the GM, and that is to divide the PF between the player characters.

Like if the group has a PF of 34, and there are 4 players, then it means that each member is effectively contributing 8,5 points to the groups total profit factor each (exactly how this is done will have to be determined by the respective PC's background story. Some might come from a wealthy upbringing, some might have been savvy businessmen and some might simply have contacts and standing favors with important people or possess important knowledge etc. etc.)

This means that if one character dies, then his or her share of the Profit Factor will effectively be lost for the entire group (symbolizing that the relevant accounting knowledge and that PC's knowledge of the locations of the different "X:es" on the "treasure map" dies with that character).

This way, the group dynamic should be a little more tense and cutthroat in nature. While everyone knows that their total profit will suffer if they want to risk killing of another important member of the dynasty, their personalities and ideas of how to run things might still clash severely.

So even if some PC's might hate eachothers guts normally, they will still be well aware of the benefits of working together instead of squabbling with eachother (at least until they see a chance to further their own agenda that is). It would also prevent the Rogue Trader player from thinking that he has all the authority just because he's the one with the warrant (although the current guy playing the Rogue Trader seems to already be well aware of this, so I don't doubt his smarts at all).

Still, I think it's a good houserule, and regardless of whether the group are a bunch of good guys of goody goodness, or a bunch of backstabbing cutthroats, the governing of the dynasty will still be more or less democratic in nature. Thereby giving the players and their characters to be exactly as cooperative or squabbling as they like, but still keep the setting and the premise for the campaign more or less coherent for the GM.

Luthor Harkon said:

Hehe, regardless of the mythology surrounding the golden era, many privateers were still just plain pirates. The only thing that separated most of them from the real thing was that they had a paper signed by their respective king or queen. But as we all know, papers don't do much good out on the high seas other than wiping your "poop deck" with.

Not that im saying that there's not potential at all for Rogue Traders to be more or less upstanding and decent people, but you'll still find Rogue Traders with a more piratical bend as well. All of them have greed in common after all, so it all bottles down to how scrupulous or unscrupulous they are when push comes to shove.