Bid creep is getting pretty crazy. Now the problem with bidding is that in order to win it consistently even low bid metas have 15 as the standard. 20-25 is now the high bid. Will Worlds see bids of 30-30+? I think so.

I used to bid with Squadrons because alpha striking the **** out of theirs/ships first is strong. But now giving up 15 points minimum is a Mauler Mithrel value squadron dropped AND there is not a sure fire chance of winning the bid anyway. It's a lot of potential power to loose. Changing to a more defensive composition using combinations of Sontir/Interceptor/Punishing One is a good way to punish the alpha strike.

Bidding is important for a list that wants to go first because cheap/weak activation ships are not good as second player ie: Raider. So much so that bid creep will surely continue to rise. I'm not going to bother with this proposition.

Going second is tricker to set up punishment because you have to engage two of their ships OR engage one of theirs with two but no less effective=. You need to set up two bad choices for the first player. They will want to alpha strike something of yours but if you position yourself to alpha strike a ship in return they have to activate in a certain order and it creates a trade.

I plan to punish high bids by building around point based Objectives. All Assault Objectives, Fire Lanes/Contested Outpost, Dangerous Territory/Superior Positions/Intel Sweep. You should aim to collect 75 points minimum off each one. The terror of this forum, the Gladaitor vs your 150+ point ISD/MC80. But loosing 92 points on a Gladiator + 75 points from Objectives puts you on even losses. The Gladiator is not a cheap ship.

Little bit offtopic but would Demolisher be better for the game if it were only able to fire after moving, rather than giving a choice? That way its still a powerful title, but you can't do the movement - fire - fire - movement sequence.

Little bit offtopic but would Demolisher be better for the game if it were only able to fire after moving, rather than giving a choice? That way its still a powerful title, but you can't do the movement - fire - fire - movement sequence.

You mean, make it only ever be able to fire once, after moving, ala Slaved-Turrets?

I feel it'd go from Awesome to Never Used.

If you mean BOTH shots though after moving...then it goes into the utterly absurd broken level...hehe...

If you mean BOTH shots though after moving...then it goes into the utterly absurd broken level...hehe...

Right, my reasoning was 8 dice after moving would be less nasty than 4 after moving and then another 8 before moving. But I can see how having 2 attacks with 8 dice total after moving would probably be a bit too much in retrospect.

... Up those totals by 2... Expanded Launchers are typically the choice, and that makes its nose 4 Blacks, 2 Reds...

I usually bid ZERO when I play as IMPs. I say bring your initiative into the jaws of my imperial fleet. Bring it! Choose between 3 worst-case Objectives and then watch as your silly second move places you into range for me to fire first at long range and as your 3rd move brings you into sweet, sweet medium range where I will grind you to dust. Also I'll be collecting some free points. That is, unless you also play a Demolisher and have initiative...then sad face, its not that easy.

I don't know that initiative is all things all the time. I feel that it really depends what type of fleet you have. If you bring many (4-6) small / medium ships capable rapid movement in and out of "hot" zones but not capable of weathering brutal punishment, then initiative truly matters. If you fly lumbering warships moving at speed 2 (looking at you, MC80!) then I can basically negate the benefit of initiative using deployment and flight speed. Sure you'll get to fire first but only at extreme range then move closer...where I will be waiting, usually with multiple ships. Its very difficult to surprise at slow speeds and based on deployment it is fairly simple to predict where a ship at speed 2 will be 2 turns in the future. It all depends if I deploy well and play MY game NOT yours.

I usually bid ZERO when I play as IMPs. I say bring your initiative into the jaws of my imperial fleet. Bring it! Choose between 3 worst-case Objectives and then watch as your silly second move places you into range for me to fire first at long range and as your 3rd move brings you into sweet, sweet medium range where I will grind you to dust. Also I'll be collecting some free points. That is, unless you also play a Demolisher and have initiative...then sad face, its not that easy.

I don't know that initiative is all things all the time. I feel that it really depends what type of fleet you have. If you bring many (4-6) small / medium ships capable rapid movement in and out of "hot" zones but not capable of weathering brutal punishment, then initiative truly matters. If you fly lumbering warships moving at speed 2 (looking at you, MC80!) then I can basically negate the benefit of initiative using deployment and flight speed. Sure you'll get to fire first but only at extreme range then move closer...where I will be waiting, usually with multiple ships. Its very difficult to surprise at slow speeds and based on deployment it is fairly simple to predict where a ship at speed 2 will be 2 turns in the future. It all depends if I deploy well and play MY game NOT yours.

Same goes for me. When I am playing Imperials, I never bother for an initiative bid, because I think the Imperials win though sheer firepower and the sturdiness of the star destroyer.

Rebels on the other side need more maneuvering and tactis to win, in my opinion. So I go here to a bid of 1-5 points. If my opponent bids more points, ok. But thats an update he can't use, so it may give me an advantage.

I usually bid ZERO when I play as IMPs. I say bring your initiative into the jaws of my imperial fleet. Bring it! Choose between 3 worst-case Objectives and then watch as your silly second move places you into range for me to fire first at long range and as your 3rd move brings you into sweet, sweet medium range where I will grind you to dust. Also I'll be collecting some free points. That is, unless you also play a Demolisher and have initiative...then sad face, its not that easy.

I don't know that initiative is all things all the time. I feel that it really depends what type of fleet you have. If you bring many (4-6) small / medium ships capable rapid movement in and out of "hot" zones but not capable of weathering brutal punishment, then initiative truly matters. If you fly lumbering warships moving at speed 2 (looking at you, MC80!) then I can basically negate the benefit of initiative using deployment and flight speed. Sure you'll get to fire first but only at extreme range then move closer...where I will be waiting, usually with multiple ships. Its very difficult to surprise at slow speeds and based on deployment it is fairly simple to predict where a ship at speed 2 will be 2 turns in the future. It all depends if I deploy well and play MY game NOT yours.

Same goes for me. When I am playing Imperials, I never bother for an initiative bid, because I think the Imperials win though sheer firepower and the sturdiness of the star destroyer.

Rebels on the other side need more maneuvering and tactis to win, in my opinion. So I go here to a bid of 1-5 points. If my opponent bids more points, ok. But thats an update he can't use, so it may give me an advantage.

I often find that when I'm building to underbid that after I slot in all the "must have" upgrades, I'm reaching to fill the remaining 5-10 points that takes me to my bid threshold. So.... not always the case my friend.

I've never been convinced demolished is all that. Because:

1) in competitive play I have always run high activation rebel lists, so never faced a last/first demo....

2) I find the Demo tends to encourage overextension, I've often snapped him up before the main merge.....

3) Demo always dies, even if he takes a ship with him

4) I tend not to run ships that are cheaper or cost around the same a Demo, so there is no value in the exchange.

Although, I can see how Demo would be a horror if you run high value low activation lists....

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

Sorry but can't agree what you have said, this is a game of fleets not single ships:

I only need the same number of activations as you to keep Demo under control, not 8 ships.

By overextension I mean a lot of players tend to get over excited with Demo and isolate one component of their fleet, yes I can't stop themmoving Demo and killing a ship, the point is what's the rest of their fleet doing. If it's not backing up Demo, taking advantage of the move Demo has made they have probably over extended......

Im not going to comment on the opponents I play, some have played the game wave one some have not. But what I will tell you is if I face Demo, I plan to kill it.....full stop.......it not that hard and it tends to have plenty of upgrades........Demo tends to come in first (often without much support, see over extension) . ships are predictable so I know where demo is likely to end up, I can control this with the board edge and blocking ships....rebels have lots of red dice and fighters that hit hard......demo does not take a lot of damage to kill.....

It's about the whole fleet not single ships, yes one to one Demo will crap all over most rebel ship builds , but I'm playing with a fleet not a single ship, Demo gets people thinking in a single ship mindset, I like that in an opponent.

Just to drive the point,In isolation Demo may seem OP but he's part of a fleet in a fleet game. I just don't see the imps as being OP compared to the rebels....so for me I'm happy to see him pointed as he is. Played well he makes the game challenging (fun) played badly he can hand me the win.

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

That reminds me. Are you still running Vader? Our Whale Player did the statistical analysis and says that for your list Screed represents more consistent reliable damage while Vader has higher swings. He says just going by the math alone Screed is a better Admiral for you.

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

I think you might not be facing smart players. In all honesty, I have faced strong players in this game and they are lucky to get demo to go off as easily as you make it sound.

In the end they lose demo because they try the tactics you suggest and knowing what they are doing. The counter is simple, you use Demo's turn radius against it. I may take a hit or so and may lose a ship but once your demo is dead I own you.

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

I've literally never had so much trouble from Demo that I felt it needed to go away as a title and I've played against it a lot. So, I mean, if you want to say every Imperial player I've ever played is bad, go for it, but you can imagine how I'm forced to disagree.

Demo is a powerful ship but it's not broken.

1) unless you have like 8 ships, demo is always gonna find one to strike that has already activated

2) overextension? There is literally nothing you can do to stop demo from moving...killing...then moving out of range.

3) I've just finished playing 23 tournament games with demolisher and only lost it once. Not sure who you faced running it... But with very little maneuver skill and the right build it shouldn't die

4) demo can kill a five or less hull ship in just its first bottom turn strike. Then it goes again top of turn and kills another. Again...nothing you can do to stop this. Cheaper ships are even juicer and more kill able than big ones.

Not just being disagreeable...but those statements aren't really valid.

Imo, demo needs to go by by... Or have a price tag of 30-40 points.

I've literally never had so much trouble from Demo that I felt it needed to go away as a title and I've played against it a lot. So, I mean, if you want to say every Imperial player I've ever played is bad, go for it, but you can imagine how I'm forced to disagree.

Demo is a powerful ship but it's not broken.

I am with you. Yes demo can ruin a players day if it takes down a big ship but that is a consideration of how the game works. I can do the same and have done the same with a MC30.

Yep , Vader all the way baby

I've heard the same from an math expert friend . While I am not a math expert, I have instincts hehe... Screed "seems" better, because of the guarantee one time per activation. However, with OE and Vader, you get a cascade of reroll effect.

For example... I roll starboard dice and get four hits. That's statistical average for black dice. Let's assume no Christ and no blanks. I will immediately reroll all of them. That's a complete re shot attempt. Then..... I will reroll EVERYTHING not a crit again with Vader. In other words, 12'dice to get a crit result. Odds are effective 100% of a crit. In addition, you are compounding the chance of chits each time. Likely with the double cascade re roll, yer getting 4-7 average damage. With a potential of eight. Whereas screed does not have the eight potential. Max six.

Same applies for the front two black. You get six dice to get a crit. In other words...it's happening. In 23 games with demo , oe and Vader, I've not failed a crit result with any shot.

That means - with engine techs ram effect , demo has a starting damage point of 6 damage cards, 3 face up - WITHOUT even applying basal damage. THEN you apply the ten black , four red and the bomber following demo in to the mix....No ship except a motti isd survives that.

Just saying of course... This is NOT theory crafting either...heh... This is from reasonably heavy experiential results.

Stuff About Dice

Just saying of course... This is NOT theory crafting either...heh... This is from reasonably heavy experiential results.

Ya I don't know if he took in to consideration OT on the rerolls or not and I think he said in his numbers that you only rerolled blanks. Anyway - just wanted to let you know. Obviously Vader is getting work done.

But that's the one thing that gets me about people's responses to your post. 23 games. 23. You lost once. It might be sufficient to say your opponents were probably bad if it was 6 games. Or 12. Or you won your local championship and there were only 5 other guys present. But you played 23 games and lost once. Different playgroups, in different metagames. Even different states! Those kind of numbers are what we call statistically significant. It would be interesting to see what your results would look like if we could control for bad players. But to blame 22/1 on TWENTY-TWO bad players seems intellectually disingenuous. Those results merit consideration.

I mean, Our Whale Player, Our Imperial Fanboy and myself all consider ourselves reasonably good players (we win or tie people when we play janky lists and we perform strongly when we play good lists so... I feel like that says something?) and you beat all of us. So from my perspective it has to be more than just "GET GUD."

The odds of getting at least one crit on rolling 4 black dice is 68%. The odds of getting one crit when you reroll 4 black dice is 68%. The odds of getting one crit when you reroll 4 black dice yet another time is 68%.

Rerolling 4 dice 3 times is not the equivalent of rolling 12 dice.

With all that said, the odds of getting at least 1 crit while rolling 12 black dice is 97%. Assuming your demolisher rolls at least twice each game (which is generous), you'd be somewhat fortunate to have gone 23 games without ever getting one series of dice rolls sans crits. I don't doubt your story (well I might doubt it a little because I've never met anyone who tracks their dice rolls that aggressively), but we should at least acknowledge the math.

Screed is a sure deal for less money spent. Vader is just a likely deal that comes with added bonus of being able to reroll other dice as well.

I have seen the pictures of his store championship plaques.

I have seen the pictures of his store championship plaques.

I didn't say anything counter to that point.

The odds of getting at least one crit on rolling 4 black dice is 68%. The odds of getting one crit when you reroll 4 black dice is 68%. The odds of getting one crit when you reroll 4 black dice yet another time is 68%.

Rerolling 4 dice 3 times is not the equivalent of rolling 12 dice.

For the purposes of answering his question, "did I roll at least one crit?", it is completely identical.

1 - .75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75 = 96.83%

1 - (.75*.75*.75*.75)*(.75*.75*.75*.75)*(.75*.75*.75*.75) = 96.83%

Wasn't trying to start a brawl

My point in running this list was to "test" the veracity of demolisher's reputation. I am a fairly new player (less than six months) and had heard about its power. I ran squad heavy carrier rebels initially and had good success. I wanted to try something faster and more aggressive. Thus a demo fast strike list was born.

I am not a simpleton on math, but ( have a masters in education and economics and history) I know the gist of stats. I also know the difference between expected value and averages. Point being...in a six round game, with the approach I was taking with a maximal kill efficient vehicle, apt and Vader worked great with OE. Running the numbers is great...but testing was necessary.

I did track every black range shot (not including insidious the time I added it) and across 23 games with a total recorded side arc shots of 78, all produced crit apt results. With 53 front arc black producing crit results 48 times.

My point in running this list began to be "wow...there is a problem here"

As sirseatbelt has said, all my opponents certainly were not "great" players (whatever that means.?) but certainly some were. At all the store championships I have attended there was always at least one "alpha" player I had to beat. Nick, James, tom, Dan, Kyle, jimmy, Phil, Bryan, Chris, Ed..etc.. All these guys were top notch...knew there game and knew the power of demolisher. It didn't matter. I honestly think most of them are better players than me. The list demo combo is simply whack....too op...broken. It ruins the flow of the game with a paradigm shift in mechanics.

So, all,I am saying, I guess to relate back to the OP....is that with a high bid...high activation...demo kitted out list... Assume equal skill player... Demo wins.

Just saying...

So, all,I am saying, I guess to relate back to the OP....is that with a high bid...high activation...demo kitted out list... Assume equal skill player... Demo wins.

I have been playing against such a list and I am probably about the equal in skill of my opponent and so far I have won one game against this list.

I have a thought that regardless of what the initiative is there is an entire Squadron Phase that sits between the Demolisher moving and the next turn where it moves again. So Rogue Squadrons can get out there on turn 1-2 and do some damage before Demolisher does it attack run on turn 2-3. I have become a fan of Han here as he can out do Demolisher going after it and then before it. I haven't tested the theory yet, so it may just be another idea in the crash and burn cart of my quest to figure a way to counter Demolisher.

I did lay in bed all night last night trying to think up ways my list (Lyraeus' list) could out deploy MikeMcMann's. The only thing I can think of was a slow roll and overlapping fields of fire, so that no matter where Demolisher ends up and no matter which ship it kills (I can't think of a way to stop the last in first out activation murdering a dude) it has to end up in a position to eat 3-5 attacks backed up by Intel Officer and TRC. That *should* be enough to kill it. But I'm still down a unit. I'd have to try it out a few times and see how it works. But even then I don't have high hopes.