So I have no idea what my local meta is like outside of my dining room, but since I have my first tournament coming up in a few months, I wanted to ask:

I'm looking at a 4-ship gunship build with a Demolisher, so initiative is important. From what I've seen, most people seem to agree. What are the averages bids around your area/in your meta? My current list is at 388 but I had to get rid of tractor beams which is making me quite sad.

It sounds a bit low. You should be able to squeeze in a single tractor beam..

I run a 20 point bid and have always gone first at seven tournaments. The closest bid was 14. That is across four states in the Midwest

I think 12 will not guarantee you first (if that's what you need). But 16 and up should secure it likely unless the trends change.

10 points is still the largest bid up here - even for those who are going the Clonisher-Clone...

I basically see it as (in terms of bids):

0-1: I don't have a strong preference in terms of whether I'm first or second.

2-5: It would be nice to get to choose against those guys who bid less than me but I generally don't sweat it.

6-10: I'd like to choose player order but I'm not willing to make big cuts to get there.

11-15: I really would like to choose player order (usually for first).

16+: I am obsessed with going first to a degree that may not be entirely sane.

I currently am running a fleet with a 17 point bid and I still am not sure it's sane.

Initiative is important, but it's not the only important thing.

Because you don't know the meta, you can't count on being able to put-bid everyone, so I recommend trying some practice games in which you deliberately take second player to try to learn how to fly your list if you don't win initiative. Learn how to threaten two ships at once, try to find objectives that work well for you across a broad range of adversary builds, and practice playing those objectives. Learn how to play Demo as second player: learn how to fork with it (threaten two ships at once), how to block your quarry with it so he can't escape the follow-up shots, and how to force him to activate something else first (or pay for not doing so).

Back to back activations from a pimped out Demolisher is a death sentence for most anything. But in the right hands, Demo is still a ludicrously powerful ship even as second player.

I ran as second (i.e. no bid) from novemeber to February. My beginning stages. Recently started going first with a vengeance. I find it more to my aggressive play style.

But as Ard says...its not required to win. Going second is good if your fleet is designed to maximize your objectives and "await the enemy"

That being said, I expect to move to a 25 point for regionals.

So I have no idea what my local meta is like outside of my dining room, but since I have my first tournament coming up in a few months, I wanted to ask:

I'm looking at a 4-ship gunship build with a Demolisher, so initiative is important. From what I've seen, most people seem to agree. What are the averages bids around your area/in your meta? My current list is at 388 but I had to get rid of tractor beams which is making me quite sad.

In my opinion, you really cannot answer the question of what you're initiative bid should be until or unless you first answer the question of what missions you want to go with your list.

list composition, initative bid, and mission selection are all things that need to be considered with respect to one another.

You mention you want a a "4 ship gunship build". What does that mean to you, exactly, and why do you want to fly it?

So I have no idea what my local meta is like outside of my dining room, but since I have my first tournament coming up in a few months, I wanted to ask:

I'm looking at a 4-ship gunship build with a Demolisher, so initiative is important. From what I've seen, most people seem to agree. What are the averages bids around your area/in your meta? My current list is at 388 but I had to get rid of tractor beams which is making me quite sad.

In my opinion, you really cannot answer the question of what you're initiative bid should be until or unless you first answer the question of what missions you want to go with your list.

list composition, initative bid, and mission selection are all things that need to be considered with respect to one another.

You mention you want a a "4 ship gunship build". What does that mean to you, exactly, and why do you want to fly it?

Right now it's an ISD-2 with Screed, SW-7s and HTT; a demolisher gladiator and 2 Raider I-s, with some TIE advanced just for fun. I had 3 ships (had cut a raider) but it was pointed out to me that my fighters (interceptors mostly and a few others) could tie up enemy squadrons but not necessarily do much to ships, so I went with another Raider, figuring that if they showed up with a lot of squadrons, 2 black dice x2 would give me good damage output and protect my more expensive ships (ISD and Demo).

I'm not married to the 2nd Raider, but the triple tap Demo seems nasty if done well and the option of engaging squadrons or going toward ships and forcing them to defend against the cheaper raiders (went OE/ACM to synergize with pure dmg output from SW7-HTT and Screed) seemed like a decent strat. I'm a relative noob so always open to ideas.

The triple tap Demolisher is nasty. Here's the problem with it:

-It's SO ubiquitous, that everyone who knows how to play the game knows what they need to do to counter it (or mitigate it) and builds their list with it in mind. Same for Rhymer.

-It's SO ubiquitous, that people get a lot of practice playing against it.

-It's got "kill me first" written all over it. And it will get killed, unless you disengage with it (at which point, what is the purpose of having the big nasty if you need to fly it away to save it?)

-It will put you into "lazy game play" mode. Relying on Demolisher's tap-move-tap too often will start to build bad habits. The tournie I was at last Saturday had at least 3 Demolishers out of 12 players. None of them placed in the top 3.

The biggest bid I have seen in a tournament was 28 points.

That guy went first in every game.

He was playing a 5-ship imperial list with Demolisher where, essentially, the wheels came off if he didn't go first. Hence the bid.

The triple tap Demolisher is nasty. Here's the problem with it:

-It's SO ubiquitous, that everyone who knows how to play the game knows what they need to do to counter it (or mitigate it) and builds their list with it in mind. Same for Rhymer.

-It's SO ubiquitous, that people get a lot of practice playing against it.

-It's got "kill me first" written all over it. And it will get killed, unless you disengage with it (at which point, what is the purpose of having the big nasty if you need to fly it away to save it?)

-It will put you into "lazy game play" mode. Relying on Demolisher's tap-move-tap too often will start to build bad habits. The tournie I was at last Saturday had at least 3 Demolishers out of 12 players. None of them placed in the top 3.

But still it's stupid powerful. I played a tourney yesterday and my demo took down a fresh MC80 in a triple shot. Granted I rolled laughably well, but it shows just how OP demo + 1st player is. There is nothing comparable in the game. Nothing.

Agreed with green knight

As a test (and fun!) I've run a demo list with tweaks here and there for most of the tournament season. Demo is more than just tough....I am fairly convinced it is exorbitantly under costed and / or simply broken.

Across seven tournaments and 23 games I've scored no less than 25 tournament points and typically 27. This is not a brag or testament to my skill, but rather a fact that high bid...high activation...demolisher is point...shoot...win. No single ten point card should do that.

I would take the demolisher card even if it was 40 points. It's that tough.

There is zero response an opponent can give and it auto kills everything but a motti isd. Hell...it does six damage cards in its double activation without even adding up damage. No ship with an upgrade should be able to do that without a response.

So...as a point, I'm gonna play it thru regionals, nationals and at ffg hq. It's just too powerful. And that's coming from someone that is playing it. It takes the tactical thought from the game I feel.

Any kitted Glad could sail in late and then take a double arc shot as first activation on the following round. But only Demo lets you add that extra cheese that makes it, if not broken, as close to it as you get in Armada.

My area likes making 400 point lists more often than not. Sometimes they will differ and go 6 points under, me personally. . . 11 to 12 points. I just can't drop anymore in Dodonna the Oppressor. . .

I also agree with Mr McMann here, and that's coming from a rebel player who normally doesn't play Imperials. The one time I did, I went 30-0 in a tournament and using Demolisher feels like playing on easy mode.

I want to see how regionals shakes out, and nationals, but I expect that almost every single Imperial list that places well will have Demolisher in it (and if not, it will have Rhymer).

I suspect Rieekan was intended as something of a counter to Demolisher, but I'm not sure he is "meta" enough for that to work. I will go so far, if we are following the X-wing paradigm, to suggest that there may be a Demolisher nerf card in wave 3 or wave 4 in order to open up the Imperial meta, because right now I don't see why you'd ever make a list without Demolisher...

Riekannis indeed the only admiral I fear. And fear is a big word. I would say more like mildly concerned.

The heavy activation count mitigates riekann pretty easily.

There is simply no paradigm shift like demo. All the other card keep the primary fire move mechanic which is critical to balance I feel.

I bid 388 in two consecutive tournaments and was the lowest bid each time.

Anyone else feel that the activation counts are going to go through the roof after flotillas come out? It'll be a lot harder for Demo to get last and first activation.

I don't think it'll be harder. It'll be just the same as it is now... Because every option for a Non-Demolisher List is an Option for a Demolisher List...

The biggest bids will probably start levelling out at a maximum of whatever the cheapest Gozanti costs, on the Imperial Side... Because that's the point where you go, "Do I have an extra Activation, or do I just Bid it out..."

I see 6-7 ship counts with the fleet support and still easy 20 point bids with demo

Demolisher is the one ship I refuse to use as the Empire. I have never seen a ship scare away new players as fast as when it hits the table. Anyway, our local meta does not generally see a strong bid. Most players are quite tight to 400 pts.

I see 6-7 ship counts with the fleet support and still easy 20 point bids with demo

But what are the threats outside of demo going to look like? I'm really lookig forward to seeing the gozanti point costs.

I don't see Demolisher ruin days in my meta. . . Then again we are Empire heavy in the PNW so they face each other often enough.

Won't flo-teeeee-ahs be excellent blockers though??? You cant triple tap if you can't get to black range, so having a couple sitting between you and demo should be useful non??