Is it just me, or are rebel troopers severely worse than stormtroopers? stormtroopers have better dice, more powerful surges, and roll a black defense die which I think is generally better than a white one. Why would anyone run the rebel troopers?

thanks!

The 'get into position' ability is really powerful. And their Aim bonus shouldn't be ignored.

The Rebel Troopers aren't severely worse than the Stormtroopers. They have different strengths. First off, Rebel Troopers roll a yellow die, which is slightly better odds at getting a surge than the green die. Pierce 1 and +1[Damage], have basically the same net result.

Where the Rebel Troopers really excel is in their ability to use aim every round at no cost. It certainly requires a bit more planning and foresight than Stormtroopers do, but the +2 Accuracy can often make up for the loss of being able to use your first action to move.

The black die is probably the best thing the Stormtroopers have over the Rebel Troopers. But neither of them are going to survive more than 1 attack from a stronger unit with their health so low, regardless of the die they roll.

If you compare a single Rebel Trooper vs. a single Stormtrooper at a distance of 1, here are the results:

Rebel Trooper

1 Damage: 72%

2 Damage: 39%

3 Damage: 12%

4 Damage: <1%

Stromtrooper

1 Damage: 80%

2 Damage: 65%

3 Damage: 35%

4 Damage: 9%

Advantage Stormtrooper.

Now lets see what a Rebel Trooper does against a Stormtrooper if he applies Aim:

Rebel Trooper with Aim

1 Damage: 92%

2 Damage: 72%
3 Damage: 39%

4 Damage: 12%

5 Damage: <1%

Advantage Rebel Trooper.

So if you compare the 2 options with the rebel trooper, they are pretty similar.

Don't forget about the Stormtrooper's Squad Training to reroll an attack die.

@thestag: Where are you pulling those percentages from? What's the formula you are using? They don't look right. Are you calculating the defense rolls in there and surges???

The raw odds of rolling at least 1 damage on a Blue/Green die is 97.22% (you have a 1 in 36 chance of rolling no damage, but then you rolled two surges which can convert to 1 damage).

The raw odds of rolling at least 1 damage on a Blue/Yellow die is 94.44% (you have a 1 in 18 chance of rolling no damage, and in the same situation, you still generate surges).

Can you extrapolate on these percentages, please?

See this extensive comparison of Black vs White Defense Die . TLDR: It depends.

On their other abilities, I think they're close enough to be dependent on your opponent's deck and the map you're playing on.

In general though, I think Elite Stormtroopers are better than Elite Rebel Troopers in Skirmish. But (non-elite) Regular Rebel Troopers are slightly better than Stormtroopers.

This is largely because of the fact that +2 Damage is significantly better than +2 Pierce, while +1 Damage is just slightly better than +1 Pierce.

Also, re-rolling to get your surge for +2 damage is great on eStormtroopers.

Dodge!!!

The raw odds of rolling at least 1 damage on a Blue/Green die is 97.22% (you have a 1 in 36 chance of rolling no damage, but then you rolled two surges which can convert to 1 damage).

The raw odds of rolling at least 1 damage on a Blue/Yellow die is 94.44% (you have a 1 in 18 chance of rolling no damage, and in the same situation, you still generate surges).

Can you extrapolate on these percentages, please?

I used this fantastic calculator to those numbers:

http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/

In addition to using the raw odds of what attack die get, it calculates the odds of what a defense die will get and then gives you a percentage. So the numbers include the defense options as well.

Here's a quick and dirty comparison i did not long ago

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hcm8qq65Vq25UC0oz2VABTUAXjACvgZrSbLVMxO0MEQ/edit?usp=sharing

The rerolls are hard to calculate but they are very significant.

Without re-writing huge essays again, the basic rundown is that stormtroopers are more flexible and more consistent. Damage output can be similar in certain conditions but it's harder for rebel troopers to pull that off... requires more set up and better play. I also don't think the upgrade to elite rebel troopers is worth it, where as elite stormtroopers are amazing.

Stormtroopers are just easier to use, safer to use and generally just more efficient. You always get value for them in any situation.

That can also vary with some maps where movement might be less important or where there's better firing zones/corridors.

Basically it's not just a pure damage comparison. They aren't that far apart there... although again, the reroll is a pretty big deal. It's more about the flexibility and maneuverability.

Here's a quick and dirty comparison i did not long ago

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hcm8qq65Vq25UC0oz2VABTUAXjACvgZrSbLVMxO0MEQ/edit?usp=sharing

The rerolls are hard to calculate but they are very significant.

Without re-writing huge essays again, the basic rundown is that stormtroopers are more flexible and more consistent. Damage output can be similar in certain conditions but it's harder for rebel troopers to pull that off... requires more set up and better play. I also don't think the upgrade to elite rebel troopers is worth it, where as elite stormtroopers are amazing.

Stormtroopers are just easier to use, safer to use and generally just more efficient. You always get value for them in any situation.

That can also vary with some maps where movement might be less important or where there's better firing zones/corridors.

Basically it's not just a pure damage comparison. They aren't that far apart there... although again, the reroll is a pretty big deal. It's more about the flexibility and maneuverability.

That's a really nice comparison. Your conclusions agree with my gut feeling after playing a good number of games on both sides of the elite troopers. I think the Elite Troopers can be good if you have a good place to put them 4 spaces away from your deployment zone so you can get into position start round 2 with 3 focused attacks. Elite Stormtroopers are just so solid and consistent, especially with Reinforcements and in the current meta.

It will be interesting to see how the upcoming Wing Guard Troopers for Scum stack up here. We only know some of their details so far like the ability to surge for recover and damage with the unique Guardian strain trigger. But not their attack or defense die or the elite upgrades. Let's hope they end up similarly comparable, because it would be a shame if Scum got the short straw again.

Looks like the Wing Guard can give out 1 Strain if something targets an adjacent space, but it looks like it has to be an empty space.

So I think that ability will be pretty **** niche.

Surge for damage and surge for recover is nice.
Makes me think they'll have a low surge dice though. It seems designed so that you have to pick one of those two most of the time. Maybe a blue and a red or two blues. Hard to say. Blue and red might make the most sense since their other ability is isn't something that's worth points unlike Aim or Stormtrooper Rerolls.

I imagine the elite versions will just have more health and surge for 2dmg and surge for 2recover. There's not much more room on the card to add another ability. Even with those surge ability a blue and red makes them pretty close range, which might be their limiting factor even if the damage output is similar to stormtroopers.

Here's a quick and dirty comparison i did not long ago

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hcm8qq65Vq25UC0oz2VABTUAXjACvgZrSbLVMxO0MEQ/edit?usp=sharing

The rerolls are hard to calculate but they are very significant.

Without re-writing huge essays again, the basic rundown is that stormtroopers are more flexible and more consistent. Damage output can be similar in certain conditions but it's harder for rebel troopers to pull that off... requires more set up and better play. I also don't think the upgrade to elite rebel troopers is worth it, where as elite stormtroopers are amazing.

Stormtroopers are just easier to use, safer to use and generally just more efficient. You always get value for them in any situation.

That can also vary with some maps where movement might be less important or where there's better firing zones/corridors.

Basically it's not just a pure damage comparison. They aren't that far apart there... although again, the reroll is a pretty big deal. It's more about the flexibility and maneuverability.

This is as it should be. Stormtroopers are supposed to be shock troops. They aren't militia like the Rebel Troops are. You saw what happened to them on Tantive IV. They got that one because they were aiming and focused when he breached, but after that it was just a slaughter with blue shirts routing in panic.

Looks like the Wing Guard can give out 1 Strain if something targets an adjacent space, but it looks like it has to be an empty space.

So I think that ability will be pretty **** niche.

You can't target empty spaces for attacks, so you are mistaken about the empty space. (Even when you target figures, you target one of their spaces.)

It only doesn't work if there is a friendly figure with a specific trait in that space, ending with "N". So, it's either Heavy Weapon or Guardian, the latter making more sense, so that there won't be another Royal Guards Protecting each other issue.

As others have said, Rebel Troopers are more siutational, and slightly worse. But the Rebel Faction is more hero centered and has far more options to field heroes. The slightly worse Rebel Troopers do get strong support from strong Skirmish Options like Luke, Leia, C3-PO, Gideon or Fenn Signis. The Imperial Faction has stronger Troopers, but is stuck with underwhelming heroes.

Looks like the Wing Guard can give out 1 Strain if something targets an adjacent space, but it looks like it has to be an empty space.

So I think that ability will be pretty **** niche.

You can't target empty spaces for attacks, so you are mistaken about the empty space. (Even when you target figures, you target one of their spaces.)

It only doesn't work if there is a friendly figure with a specific trait in that space, ending with "N". So, it's either Heavy Weapon or Guardian, the latter making more sense, so that there won't be another Royal Guards Protecting each other issue.

This ability seems a bit... odd. Take a strain to give a strain when an adjacent non-guardian is attacked and cannot be stacked... This seems so situational for a group for which any strain is dealt as damage. I can see this being helpful in only a couple situations: 1.) get the last point of damage on a wounded hostile, or 2.) kill yourself to trigger a defeat related condition such as last resort. Am I missing something?

Looks like the Wing Guard can give out 1 Strain if something targets an adjacent space, but it looks like it has to be an empty space.

So I think that ability will be pretty **** niche.

You can't target empty spaces for attacks, so you are mistaken about the empty space. (Even when you target figures, you target one of their spaces.)

It only doesn't work if there is a friendly figure with a specific trait in that space, ending with "N". So, it's either Heavy Weapon or Guardian, the latter making more sense, so that there won't be another Royal Guards Protecting each other issue.

This ability seems a bit... odd. Take a strain to give a strain when an adjacent non-guardian is attacked and cannot be stacked... This seems so situational for a group for which any strain is dealt as damage. I can see this being helpful in only a couple situations: 1.) get the last point of damage on a wounded hostile, or 2.) kill yourself to trigger a defeat related condition such as last resort. Am I missing something?

Looks like the Wing Guard can give out 1 Strain if something targets an adjacent space, but it looks like it has to be an empty space.

So I think that ability will be pretty **** niche.

You can't target empty spaces for attacks, so you are mistaken about the empty space. (Even when you target figures, you target one of their spaces.)

It only doesn't work if there is a friendly figure with a specific trait in that space, ending with "N". So, it's either Heavy Weapon or Guardian, the latter making more sense, so that there won't be another Royal Guards Protecting each other issue.

This ability seems a bit... odd. Take a strain to give a strain when an adjacent non-guardian is attacked and cannot be stacked... This seems so situational for a group for which any strain is dealt as damage. I can see this being helpful in only a couple situations: 1.) get the last point of damage on a wounded hostile, or 2.) kill yourself to trigger a defeat related condition such as last resort. Am I missing something?

In skirmish, could you use that strain to mill your deck, or someone else's?

If they wanted to take the card loss rather than damage, then sure. But why would you want to voluntarily discard one of your own command cards without triggering the effect? If it was a dead card because the troop it affects was killed, okay, but again, SOOOO situational.

Edit: Strain is just so variable in efficacy. It's one thing when strain is given automatically, like with Relentless or Force Choke, but when it requires you to take a strain yourself...

I looked through the skirmish guide, and without a max hand size, and with a static draw rate, I dont actually *see a reason (right now) why you would want to. Maybe in the future?

On Wing Guards - I'm pretty confident it's "if the space doesn't contain a friendly guardian." I can see them being a unit that wants to take the strain as damage and hopefully they have a higher health and a decent surge dice to recover their damage relatively well. It could be interesting if they are basically healing tanks that can force your opponent to take damage/lose cards whenever they try to attack something else.

Here's the fun thing I just noticed: when the attack is declared you can choose to suffer the strain if the conditions are met then the attacker must suffer the strain - before the attack happens! If you build your team right and do lots of strain there won't be a deck for them to discard. When their units are low health they won't be able to attack anymore or they'll die before they can even attack. Regardless, once lots of strain becomes a legitimate team building option (and maybe that will be with this expansion - see Wing Guards, Bossk, Blaise discarding command cards if he wants to - match some of these up with current ways to strain), I don't know many other lists that won't feel the burn when they're command deck is being shredded. Even Leia can only recycle a few and they're only part of the deck until you strain her team again or she saves her ability to the end of the round.

I'm just hoping Wing Guards are balanced and a legitimate choice. I don't want them to suck or be overpowered.

Pair them with boba fett and the trandoshian hunters and you could inflict a *lot of strain.

Yeah I missed the "N" which does imply friendly guardian.

You can target blank spaces btw... but pretty much only with grenades or Bossk's indiscriminate fire. Though that doesn't count as "declare an attack".

So disregard my previous comment.

Still.... it's not an amazing ability. I do like seeing more strain, as i think it's a very interesting mechanic.

In this case it's basically an offensive version of the Royal Guard ability rather than the defensive 1 block.

when i think about Rebel Troopers vs Stormtroopers all the posts above pretty much cover it but i do have one observation to make when i have used them or seen them in use.

the general rule of thumb is

stormtroopers move and shoot

rebel troopers shoot then move.

as such the rebels are more defensive, taking long ranged shots then waddling off to their untimely demise. the stormtroopers are just more versatile. every time I've seen the rebel troopers spectacularly fail it is because the person using them was trying to make them work like stormtroopers, or they were shooting the wrong thing with them (i am guilty of trying to shoot through a door with rebel troopers and getting frustrated at how long it took me....stupid mistake, piece cannot do anything useful to something with no defence roll/stat)

When you compare 2 eStormies, 3 Stormies plus 2 Officers to Gideon on a Mission plus the same amount of Rebel Troopers, then the Rebel Troppers a have a slightly uphill battle.

But I think, that's not the correct comparison. When you want to play rebels, then you should coompare them to other rebel units and in a rebel context.

When you think about using them with some of the rebels shenanigans like Luke, Leia, R2-D2, etc., then especially the elites are good.