nice write up, i have realised in hindsight that fleet ambush on the glad list is a big no no, however on the reb list i originally posted i think its still valid choice. it nigh on puts at least 1 of his ship in your gun range from turn one. 2-3 ships firing at it kills it by turn 2 normally

The issue is still that they can easily outgun you; Nebulons in particular don't get much stronger beyond Red range. As the player with initiative, I'd be more than happy to set up an ISD and Demolisher right in your face, since I'd get to activate both and [probably] kill a Neb, possibly even your flagship, before you even get your second activation off.

I find Fleet Ambush is an objective that puts WAY too much control in the 1st player's hands, which significantly reduces any possibility of 2nd player maintaining an advantage. Sure, it could work great against an inexperienced player, but anyone who's been around the block a few times knows how to deploy for Fleet Ambush to either negate the effect (ie. deploy some Corvettes sideways as far back as you can, or deploy in staggered formation with speed dials set to meet up on turn 2-3) or ruin your day (any close-range brawler fleet that would normally have to wade through a few turns of getting pelted by Red dice suddenly appears in your face).

nice write up, i have realised in hindsight that fleet ambush on the glad list is a big no no, however on the reb list i originally posted i think its still valid choice. it nigh on puts at least 1 of his ship in your gun range from turn one. 2-3 ships firing at it kills it by turn 2 normally

The issue is still that they can easily outgun you; Nebulons in particular don't get much stronger beyond Red range. As the player with initiative, I'd be more than happy to set up an ISD and Demolisher right in your face, since I'd get to activate both and [probably] kill a Neb, possibly even your flagship, before you even get your second activation off.

I find Fleet Ambush is an objective that puts WAY too much control in the 1st player's hands, which significantly reduces any possibility of 2nd player maintaining an advantage. Sure, it could work great against an inexperienced player, but anyone who's been around the block a few times knows how to deploy for Fleet Ambush to either negate the effect (ie. deploy some Corvettes sideways as far back as you can, or deploy in staggered formation with speed dials set to meet up on turn 2-3) or ruin your day (any close-range brawler fleet that would normally have to wade through a few turns of getting pelted by Red dice suddenly appears in your face).

Ok so what type of fleets do you run then if your going to go second ?

nice write up, i have realised in hindsight that fleet ambush on the glad list is a big no no, however on the reb list i originally posted i think its still valid choice. it nigh on puts at least 1 of his ship in your gun range from turn one. 2-3 ships firing at it kills it by turn 2 normally

The issue is still that they can easily outgun you; Nebulons in particular don't get much stronger beyond Red range. As the player with initiative, I'd be more than happy to set up an ISD and Demolisher right in your face, since I'd get to activate both and [probably] kill a Neb, possibly even your flagship, before you even get your second activation off.

I find Fleet Ambush is an objective that puts WAY too much control in the 1st player's hands, which significantly reduces any possibility of 2nd player maintaining an advantage. Sure, it could work great against an inexperienced player, but anyone who's been around the block a few times knows how to deploy for Fleet Ambush to either negate the effect (ie. deploy some Corvettes sideways as far back as you can, or deploy in staggered formation with speed dials set to meet up on turn 2-3) or ruin your day (any close-range brawler fleet that would normally have to wade through a few turns of getting pelted by Red dice suddenly appears in your face).

Come to think of it actually I dont see how you claim you'd kill what you think you would before my second activation.

If your starting as 1st player that whole theory collapses if your out of red range before you even activate your 1st ship. You can't fire then your moving INTO range of my guns. Granted if your speed 3 your going to cut that range down quickly So your ships would at least take one full turn of fire from the nebs before you could respond, yes Demo would get a shot off and it would cause some pain but doubtful it would take a neb out in 1 attack. Even with 5 blacks from a conc fire...

I'm not going to be steaming towards you at max speed here i'd be speed one so even Demo would find it hard to get past the front arcs of all 3 Nebs 1 or 2 possibly. Throw in the fighters also and unless you've tied them up Demo shouldn't be having a good day.

Unless i'm missing something glaring obvious here

nice write up, i have realised in hindsight that fleet ambush on the glad list is a big no no, however on the reb list i originally posted i think its still valid choice. it nigh on puts at least 1 of his ship in your gun range from turn one. 2-3 ships firing at it kills it by turn 2 normally

The issue is still that they can easily outgun you; Nebulons in particular don't get much stronger beyond Red range. As the player with initiative, I'd be more than happy to set up an ISD and Demolisher right in your face, since I'd get to activate both and [probably] kill a Neb, possibly even your flagship, before you even get your second activation off.

I find Fleet Ambush is an objective that puts WAY too much control in the 1st player's hands, which significantly reduces any possibility of 2nd player maintaining an advantage. Sure, it could work great against an inexperienced player, but anyone who's been around the block a few times knows how to deploy for Fleet Ambush to either negate the effect (ie. deploy some Corvettes sideways as far back as you can, or deploy in staggered formation with speed dials set to meet up on turn 2-3) or ruin your day (any close-range brawler fleet that would normally have to wade through a few turns of getting pelted by Red dice suddenly appears in your face).

Come to think of it actually I dont see how you claim you'd kill what you think you would before my second activation.

If your starting as 1st player that whole theory collapses if your out of red range before you even activate your 1st ship. You can't fire then your moving INTO range of my guns. Granted if your speed 3 your going to cut that range down quickly So your ships would at least take one full turn of fire from the nebs before you could respond, yes Demo would get a shot off and it would cause some pain but doubtful it would take a neb out in 1 attack. Even with 5 blacks from a conc fire...

I'm not going to be steaming towards you at max speed here i'd be speed one so even Demo would find it hard to get past the front arcs of all 3 Nebs 1 or 2 possibly. Throw in the fighters also and unless you've tied them up Demo shouldn't be having a good day.

Unless i'm missing something glaring obvious here

Did you maybe miss the fact that he's taking specifically about Fleet Ambush?

Because he's absolutely right, it's very possible--even likely--that player 2 will lose a ship before his second activation if they come up against a close-in brawler fleet with Demo and an ISD. The same is true for Yavaris B-wings: multiple times, I have killed my adversary's flagship assault frigate or Neb before even his first activation, because you can put the B-wings in position for the double-tap at deployment.

A brawler fleet will deploy in your face and go first. You're not getting multiple red shots at them before they get in range--you might get one.

Come to think of it actually I dont see how you claim you'd kill what you think you would before my second activation.

If your starting as 1st player that whole theory collapses if your out of red range before you even activate your 1st ship. You can't fire then your moving INTO range of my guns. Granted if your speed 3 your going to cut that range down quickly So your ships would at least take one full turn of fire from the nebs before you could respond, yes Demo would get a shot off and it would cause some pain but doubtful it would take a neb out in 1 attack. Even with 5 blacks from a conc fire...

I'm not going to be steaming towards you at max speed here i'd be speed one so even Demo would find it hard to get past the front arcs of all 3 Nebs 1 or 2 possibly. Throw in the fighters also and unless you've tied them up Demo shouldn't be having a good day.

Unless i'm missing something glaring obvious here

Remember we're talking about Fleet Ambush, where I can set up as close as 5 away from your table edge (2 away from the edge of your deployment zone). Even if you're deploying as far back as you can in your deployment zone, I'm still likely in range to Engine Tech my Demo into range, and the ISD (3rd deployment) would definitely be right next to 1-2 of your ships. That means my ISD is in Red range even if you deployed as far back as possible, or blue/black if you're closer to the front edge of your deployment zone. Further, since you can't delay your Ship deployments with Fleet Ambush (you must deploy all ships before Squadrons), that ISD certainly isn't facing those frontal shields.

Alternatively I drop the ISD right in the middle of the board with a few Nav dials queued, and make sure that Demolisher will be able to start firing right away on first turn (I'll know the speed dials for both of your deployed Nebs, so I can start Demo mid-board and wait you out on activations to allow for a triple-tap on turn 1-2).

Obviously this kind of armchair-commanding is all theory rather than practice, but the main thing I'm trying to convey is that Fleet Ambush puts player 1 in the driver seat, which is the last thing you want when you're already ceding initiative. Further, FA doesn't offer opportunities for extra points, it's purely a "let's fight" objective. In that way, it is quite similar to Hyperspace Assault, though HA provides much more control to 2nd player, and would be much better suited to, say, the Yavaris you're planning to fly into battle.

TL;DR: Objectives should be chosen to provide a consistent advantage when you're player 2; Fleet Ambush is awful at achieving this goal.

Yes I had forgotten you were talking Fleet ambush

The most important consideration for second is Objectives. Build around those. Fleets designed to go second in a Demolisher meta want to maximise points. This will make up for the potential loss of a 150 point ship to a 90 point GladI. To this end OP DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. Don't. No points AND it puts their ships/squadrons closer.

Now i've got that out of the way! Let's look at them generally and in relation to your Demolisher meta.

Assault Objectives:

Advanced Gunnery: This will much MSU drill through Large Ships. Put it on a ship with Xi7. My current favorite is a Vic II because it's cheapish and hits hard.

Most Wanted: Name their Demolisher. Now it's an easily killable ISD. Try to have a small/medium ship. Raider/Vic is perfect.

Precision Strike: This is somewhat risky vs Glad swarms because they will flip faceup damage all day. But you can do the same and it is amazing with Firesprays/Slave I. This is another potential blowout objective but any enemy list build can mass up tokens to.

Opening Salvo: Add to any amount of Red Dice 2 long range black dice with Opening Salvo, Concentrate Fire another Black dice and Screed them for Crit effects. But I don't like it as much because you can easily loose tons of points from ram damage.

Defensive Objectives:

Firelanes: Stack the three tokens on top of each other. You are allowed to do this. That way you can easily claim all 3 at once getting 45 points a turn. I usally pick Firelanes as an Objective to force people to pick my Assault/Navigation objective. Not many people will pick this after you get 12-18 tokens worth 15 each. One downside is that the final placement of Firelanes is less certain than Contested Outpost because player 1 can move them 1-2 spaces. But the reward is much higher. Also it will not work very well with your Glad list. You need long range batteries.

Contested Outpost: A personal favorite. You get the choice of two Debris essentially. I find the 5in-5up corner and stick it there. On turn one i speed 2 my ISD behind it. You can sit on it for 6 turns. Come and get it. There is not much room to for them to flank. You also can run over it like Firelanes and it is much harder for them to contest it.

Hyperspace Assault: The only non point Objective i would consider. Dropping a Demolisher/Firesprays behind their fleet is pretty good. It will probally get a garunteed kill if it does that. But you loose activations/deployment and they can avoid them.

Fleet Ambush: Don't take this ever is my rule of thumb. I'm happy to play this as first player for so many reasons.

Navigation Objectives:

Superior Postions: The biggest point potential for Navigation but it requires building around with squadrons.

Intel Sweep: A harder blue objective to play because the first player can steal your Objective Tokken. You can set this up for easy collection via the triangle method but it locks you in to flying a certain way. A much more uncertain objective. It can be the easist 75 points you get or hard fought.

Dangerous Territory: If you have this in your Objective pool most people will pick if given hard choices. This can be good. Because you can easil clump 4 debris together to collect points and now all your ships take no Damage from debris. It's not to most fun or blowout Objective but it is consistent.

Minefields: A horrible objective for points. If you deploy it certain ways many people will just take a draw rather than risking running the minefield. You end up walling them in and protecting them!

Summery:

*The higher potential points you can gain the less likey they are to choose an Objective

*If they are all high point Objectives then they will be forced to pick one anyway! Put as much pontetial punishment on them

*Practice 'playing to an Objective' maximise a point blowout stratergy, aim for the highest MoV possible

*You can always have a "soft" Objective set against hard ones to make it more likey for them to pick it ie: Dangerous Territory vs Fire Lanes & Precison Strike, go on to think/play it in an effecicent way and you will end up with a suprising amount of points

Hear hear on the writeup.

Question about dangerous territory-- if you still place them as normal, how do you clump up 4 debris together? Don't you only get to place 3 obstacles?

I love it when my opponent gives me fleet ambush, it's great, if I think I have the upper hand, I deploy close and hit hard, or just deploy a couple of flankers to come in at the side if he's a better close in slogger than me......It's lovely.

It's The only poorly designed mission in the game, in that it seems to hand player one an advantage.

Hear hear on the writeup.

Question about dangerous territory-- if you still place them as normal, how do you clump up 4 debris together? Don't you only get to place 3 obstacles?

Deploy your 2 Debris next to their first one, put your first in the middle so you can collect as you fly for the others. If they deploy the first one on their side of the board they might get to it first. But then you fleet/3 other debris is in front of them. If they deploy it the middle/your side of the board it's an easy pickup.