So with a lot of my local meta going very low on the bids to get 1st turn ( seeing 15-20 point bids regularly ) and running lots of Demolisher lists, i'm looking for things outside of the box. I've had a fair few ideas on fleet design both Imperial and Rebel to go second to mix things up.

I'm curious on how others approach this and what conclusions they have come to.

I'l post a few of my fleets to show some of my thinking

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Nav Team ( 4 points)
- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)

[ flagship ] Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
6 Firespray-31s ( 108 points)

Idea here is to sit back speed 0 and let your opponent come to you all the while hitting them with bombers if they have little or no fighter cover then suddenly burst forward using Ozzel to engage the enemy.

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 396/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Home One ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

5 YT-2400s ( 80 points)

Same principle here letting them come onto you using Home One to throw down accuracies to hep your AF's hold down braces etc whilst the YT's clear the fighters/ bombers and then switch to anti ship duties.

Currently I build my lists under the assumption that I will go second. With that in mind I tend to run lists with 4 or more ships to make sure I generally get the last say in combat each turn.

I think if you are seeing a lot of 15-20 point no fighter builds, that firespray build is going to devestate people. Of course, if they bring even a few squads, then it becomes much less effective.

A Rebel aces Rieekan build probably would be fine going second. If they get the jump on your squadrons it isnt' that big a deal as they will just have to pour all their damage in to Wedge or Luke, and probably waste a lot of firepower. Then you get to hammer back. Going second ain't no thang for Wedge or Dutch, as they both get something out of it, and you probably aren't going to mind when they drive closer to your Luke/Nym/Keyan powered by Yavaris and mobilized by Jan.

I like Defiance in player 2 rebel lists. At a minimum, Defiance benefits from moving as late as feasible in the round. What better way to force your opponent to move ships into range than to take second player. As you remove targets, activation can really work in your favor, leading to more nasty shots from Defiance. The principles behind your Ackbar list work here, though one could build around an MC80 and either Garm or Rieekan as well.

Thanks for starting the conversation. However.... Builds that are intended to go 1st/2nd also have another flip side: If they relaly intend it, they're really much worse when they don't get to.

In your example, the builds' preferences are obvious. Though, I think the first list really wants to go first, not second. However with no initiative bid of worth, neither build is going to be able to really dictate that it will go at its preference.

Your second list for sure suffers hard when not second: If they are a mass squadrons list, the 3-pick of contested plus the squadron objectives all suck. If they pick Intel, Fire Lanes or Fleet Ambush or Contested Outpost, where its rather easy to dictate where the conga line will go, it makes it much easier to block one ship in front and have it die to blocking.

Defiance with 4 corvettes.

Though i have come to realise, Defiance, 2 corvettes and a torpedo frigate with a moderate bid may actually be a better investment.

A Rebel aces Rieekan build probably would be fine going second. If they get the jump on your squadrons it isnt' that big a deal as they will just have to pour all their damage in to Wedge or Luke, and probably waste a lot of firepower. Then you get to hammer back. Going second ain't no thang for Wedge or Dutch, as they both get something out of it, and you probably aren't going to mind when they drive closer to your Luke/Nym/Keyan powered by Yavaris and mobilized by Jan.

Our Vassal team found out that this isn't the case for a Rieeken-aces list. Just ask Quadro28.

Though i have come to realise, Defiance, 2 corvettes and a torpedo frigate with a moderate bid may actually be a better investment.

How come? Is that after watching my amazing ability to maneuver a torpedo frigate into a perfect double arc position only to then watch the target pull out of close range and away into the sunset...

I love MC30s and I kinda think your fleet may suit one.

The most (or at least one of the most) important thing for a 2nd player fleet:

The ability to maneuver as to set up multiple bad choices for your opponent - if you consistent let him get away with an obvious choice of what to activate first you're doing it wrong, and will forever see you prey slip away from you.

Generally speaking you need a good number of activation to pull this off. At least four, but preferably five.

thanks for the thoughts.

So what are you guys running if you built a fleet to go 2nd ? Anyone willing to chuck down a list or two?

The most (or at least one of the most) important thing for a 2nd player fleet:

The ability to maneuver as to set up multiple bad choices for your opponent - if you consistent let him get away with an obvious choice of what to activate first you're doing it wrong, and will forever see you prey slip away from you.

Generally speaking you need a good number of activation to pull this off. At least four, but preferably five.

I agreee, but a big nasty squadron cloud is an option as well.

Anyway, I feel that when designing your fleet to go second, one should pay particular attention to the objective choice: as already stated the key IMO is to be able to decide where and when the fight will take place. Contested outpost is a must, and superior positions is highly reccomended in such cases.

The most (or at least one of the most) important thing for a 2nd player fleet:

The ability to maneuver as to set up multiple bad choices for your opponent - if you consistent let him get away with an obvious choice of what to activate first you're doing it wrong, and will forever see you prey slip away from you.

Generally speaking you need a good number of activation to pull this off. At least four, but preferably five.

I agreee, but a big nasty squadron cloud is an option as well.

Anyway, I feel that when designing your fleet to go second, one should pay particular attention to the objective choice: as already stated the key IMO is to be able to decide where and when the fight will take place. Contested outpost is a must, and superior positions is highly reccomended in such cases.

Ive moved away from contested somewhat of late, perhaps i should look back at it. I agree superior is a very good choice especially if you have decent fighter/bomber cover. Fleet ambush is a nasty choice also as i recently found out myself. ISD had to deploy right in front of the guns of an MC80 and 2 AF's needless to say it didn't last past turn 2!!

I think if you are seeing a lot of 15-20 point no fighter builds, that firespray build is going to devestate people. Of course, if they bring even a few squads, then it becomes much less effective.

Yep a very valid point Mad i have tested the firesprays against the rebel list i posted and although the sprays where tied up for 3-4 turns they did prevail in the end. But having that many points tied up in a dogfight is far from ideal as your obvioiusly wanting them to be hitting ships

Having faced this problem as well, I've turned to the above mentioned Rieekan squadron cloud. It takes some getting used to, but it forces some hard choices on your opponent. You don't necessarily need to load up on the Aces, but strategically chosen ones are great. Wedge is especially good with Rieekan. Escort with Rieekan can be such a **** move.

Having faced this problem as well, I've turned to the above mentioned Rieekan squadron cloud. It takes some getting used to, but it forces some hard choices on your opponent. You don't necessarily need to load up on the Aces, but strategically chosen ones are great. Wedge is especially good with Rieekan. Escort with Rieekan can be such a **** move.

Ive not seen any Rieekan lists would you mind posting a fleet list so i can take a peek please

So thought i'd try a Rieekan list so please cast some opinions on this. Bear in mind i've never used him previously

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 397/400

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- General Rieekan ( 30 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Adar Tallon ( 10 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Redemption ( 8 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
1 "Dutch" Vander ( 16 points)
1 Nym ( 21 points)
1 Keyan Farlander ( 20 points)
1 Scurrg H-6 Bomber ( 16 points)

You definitely don't need to go that hard in the Aces department. Rieekan's ability shines with Ships, but with Aces it's primarily noticeable with Wedge/Luke due to Escort and Jan due to Intel (less-so if she has Escorts, obviously). Consider cutting Keyan since he has no way to keep up, drop Nym to a Scurrg and add in a pair of Y-Wings for your trouble.

Contested Outpost with 3 Nebulons seems like a tough sell; broadly speaking, how would you intend to fly them to use this objective to your benefit? As a player that tends to bid for initiative I'd love to go first and pick that against your setup, since it forecasts where you're going to be with extremely positioning-dependent ships.

With so many squadron activations required, this seems like more of a Garm list, or one that would benefit from a more carrier-focused setup (AFII + Yavaris + CR90, or something to that effect).

If I am forced to go second with Double ISD i will set speed to 1 and creep up the board trying to clear out enemy fighters. Once I finally engage on turn 3-4 I should have positioned in a way to bring both ISDs to bear on 1 target. If i can do that and kill that target, there usually isn't enough rounds left for my opponent to kill an ISD back and I can win 8-2 or so.

Its not a list choice, its simply playing to the strength of being second person. Its like the article "who's the beater" for magic. Second player will typically be the control player while the first player will typically be the aggressor. You need to realize that by being second, things like Demolisher will triple tap you and you need to figure out how to play around it.

My fleet is 400pts, sometimes i don't also go second but my Objective suite is such that my opponent has some really tough decisions if they want me to go second and they won't know that until its too late.

I feel like My list wants to be X or Y in activation orders is a trap. I have a list that's 378pts, like ohhh you want to go first and your whole plan hinges on it? well too bad. Eventually someone will undercut me and then the gig is up.

You need to play your list as first and second player and figure out how that effects how your list performs. If you only win as player 2 then you should re-adjust your tactics or your list to try and also win as player 1. It's easier said than done and comes with a lot of practice.

So this is what I've doing with Rieekan and squads;

Riekaan's Aces

Author: Madaghmire

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 398/400

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- Jainas Light ( 2 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)

Yavaris 5 pts

- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)

Independence 8 pts

- General Rieekan ( 30 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)

1 "Dutch" Vander ( 16 points)

1 Keyan Farlander ( 20 points)

1 Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)

2 B-Wing Squadrons ( 28 points)

1 X-Wing Squadron ( 13 points)

You could also swap Raymus and Jainas light into Adar Tallon on the mc30. The generic xwing could be a generic yt-1300, I simply prefer xwings. I've had pretty good results with this.

A Rebel aces Rieekan build probably would be fine going second. If they get the jump on your squadrons it isnt' that big a deal as they will just have to pour all their damage in to Wedge or Luke, and probably waste a lot of firepower. Then you get to hammer back. Going second ain't no thang for Wedge or Dutch, as they both get something out of it, and you probably aren't going to mind when they drive closer to your Luke/Nym/Keyan powered by Yavaris and mobilized by Jan.

Our Vassal team found out that this isn't the case for a Rieeken-aces list. Just ask Quadro28.

What isnt it the case? Can you please elaborate? Because in my experience Rieekan going second with some squadron aces works just fine.

Having faced this problem as well, I've turned to the above mentioned Rieekan squadron cloud. It takes some getting used to, but it forces some hard choices on your opponent. You don't necessarily need to load up on the Aces, but strategically chosen ones are great. Wedge is especially good with Rieekan. Escort with Rieekan can be such a **** move.

I shamelessly copied your Rieekan Indy / Yavaris / Tantive + squadron setup and loved it. For the sake of discussion, I'm just pointing out some key ideas for it to work (that indeed are shamelessly copied from your blog too):

- Rieekan: I really like this guy. At a first glance one could think its main purpose is to power up some weak ships, making them unavoidable obstacles and ensuring they always get to shoot, even if they explode. While this is a perfectly fine approach (resulting in the infamous corvette swarm), it isn't the only way this veteran general is going to work. Even less "balanced" (for lack of a better word) and heavier ships love to withstand punishment and be able to return some at the end of the turn. This is even better with heavy hitting b wings, because ofter times all enemy resources will be devoted to kill said ship, but it will still be able to activate squadrons and do horrible things. Speaking of going second, I think Rieekan is THE MAN.

- Fighters: a lot of them. Especially rebel ones are already tough to kill, and a whole cloud of them isn't going to die to some lucky potshot from a capital ship. In my experience bomber fighters usually love second player, provided you can withstand first player alpha strike. Oh, and did I mention Rieekan?

- Objectives: as I already pointed out, a good objective selection is crucial if you're going second. Ideally you're looking at a giant NOOOOOPE objective (hello adv gunnery with mc 80!), and a couple subtle ones, depending on your fleet choice. Going second, however, you need to think about when and where you want the enemy to come and engage you: this is why I generally think that contested outpost and superior positions are good objectives, while hyperkek assault and fleet ambush are not, as you have a 99% good prediction of where the fighting will be.

The most (or at least one of the most) important thing for a 2nd player fleet:

The ability to maneuver as to set up multiple bad choices for your opponent - if you consistent let him get away with an obvious choice of what to activate first you're doing it wrong, and will forever see you prey slip away from you.

Generally speaking you need a good number of activation to pull this off. At least four, but preferably five.

QFT. Forking your adversary's ships is a huge deal as second player. There are lots of very different ways to do it, but they all pretty much boil down to presenting him with lots of bad options.

My personal favorite is using an MC30 as a cattle-prod to force my quarry into the Death Zone I've laid for him: either activate that ISD first into my cloud of Yavaris' B-wings, or take an MC30 double arc to the rear AND THEN fly into the B-wings.

The most important consideration for second is Objectives. Build around those. Fleets designed to go second in a Demolisher meta want to maximise points. This will make up for the potential loss of a 150 point ship to a 90 point GladI. To this end OP DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. Don't. No points AND it puts their ships/squadrons closer.

Now i've got that out of the way! Let's look at them generally and in relation to your Demolisher meta.

Assault Objectives:

Advanced Gunnery: This will much MSU drill through Large Ships. Put it on a ship with Xi7. My current favorite is a Vic II because it's cheapish and hits hard.

Most Wanted: Name their Demolisher. Now it's an easily killable ISD. Try to have a small/medium ship. Raider/Vic is perfect.

Precision Strike: This is somewhat risky vs Glad swarms because they will flip faceup damage all day. But you can do the same and it is amazing with Firesprays/Slave I. This is another potential blowout objective but any enemy list build can mass up tokens to.

Opening Salvo: Add to any amount of Red Dice 2 long range black dice with Opening Salvo, Concentrate Fire another Black dice and Screed them for Crit effects. But I don't like it as much because you can easily loose tons of points from ram damage.

Defensive Objectives:

Firelanes: Stack the three tokens on top of each other. You are allowed to do this. That way you can easily claim all 3 at once getting 45 points a turn. I usally pick Firelanes as an Objective to force people to pick my Assault/Navigation objective. Not many people will pick this after you get 12-18 tokens worth 15 each. One downside is that the final placement of Firelanes is less certain than Contested Outpost because player 1 can move them 1-2 spaces. But the reward is much higher. Also it will not work very well with your Glad list. You need long range batteries.

Contested Outpost: A personal favorite. You get the choice of two Debris essentially. I find the 5in-5up corner and stick it there. On turn one i speed 2 my ISD behind it. You can sit on it for 6 turns. Come and get it. There is not much room to for them to flank. You also can run over it like Firelanes and it is much harder for them to contest it.

Hyperspace Assault: The only non point Objective i would consider. Dropping a Demolisher/Firesprays behind their fleet is pretty good. It will probally get a garunteed kill if it does that. But you loose activations/deployment and they can avoid them.

Fleet Ambush: Don't take this ever is my rule of thumb. I'm happy to play this as first player for so many reasons.

Navigation Objectives:

Superior Postions: The biggest point potential for Navigation but it requires building around with squadrons.

Intel Sweep: A harder blue objective to play because the first player can steal your Objective Tokken. You can set this up for easy collection via the triangle method but it locks you in to flying a certain way. A much more uncertain objective. It can be the easist 75 points you get or hard fought.

Dangerous Territory: If you have this in your Objective pool most people will pick if given hard choices. This can be good. Because you can easil clump 4 debris together to collect points and now all your ships take no Damage from debris. It's not to most fun or blowout Objective but it is consistent.

Minefields: A horrible objective for points. If you deploy it certain ways many people will just take a draw rather than risking running the minefield. You end up walling them in and protecting them!

Summery:

*The higher potential points you can gain the less likey they are to choose an Objective

*If they are all high point Objectives then they will be forced to pick one anyway! Put as much pontetial punishment on them

*Practice 'playing to an Objective' maximise a point blowout stratergy, aim for the highest MoV possible

*You can always have a "soft" Objective set against hard ones to make it more likey for them to pick it ie: Dangerous Territory vs Fire Lanes & Precison Strike, go on to think/play it in an effecicent way and you will end up with a suprising amount of points

The most important consideration for second is Objectives. Build around those. Fleets designed to go second in a Demolisher meta want to maximise points. This will make up for the potential loss of a 150 point ship to a 90 point GladI. To this end OP DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. Don't. No points AND it puts their ships/squadrons closer.

Now i've got that out of the way! Let's look at them generally and in relation to your Demolisher meta.

Assault Objectives:

Advanced Gunnery: This will much MSU drill through Large Ships. Put it on a ship with Xi7. My current favorite is a Vic II because it's cheapish and hits hard.

Most Wanted: Name their Demolisher. Now it's an easily killable ISD. Try to have a small/medium ship. Raider/Vic is perfect.

Precision Strike: This is somewhat risky vs Glad swarms because they will flip faceup damage all day. But you can do the same and it is amazing with Firesprays/Slave I. This is another potential blowout objective but any enemy list build can mass up tokens to.

Opening Salvo: Add to any amount of Red Dice 2 long range black dice with Opening Salvo, Concentrate Fire another Black dice and Screed them for Crit effects. But I don't like it as much because you can easily loose tons of points from ram damage.

Defensive Objectives:

Firelanes: Stack the three tokens on top of each other. You are allowed to do this. That way you can easily claim all 3 at once getting 45 points a turn. I usally pick Firelanes as an Objective to force people to pick my Assault/Navigation objective. Not many people will pick this after you get 12-18 tokens worth 15 each. One downside is that the final placement of Firelanes is less certain than Contested Outpost because player 1 can move them 1-2 spaces. But the reward is much higher. Also it will not work very well with your Glad list. You need long range batteries.

Contested Outpost: A personal favorite. You get the choice of two Debris essentially. I find the 5in-5up corner and stick it there. On turn one i speed 2 my ISD behind it. You can sit on it for 6 turns. Come and get it. There is not much room to for them to flank. You also can run over it like Firelanes and it is much harder for them to contest it.

Hyperspace Assault: The only non point Objective i would consider. Dropping a Demolisher/Firesprays behind their fleet is pretty good. It will probally get a garunteed kill if it does that. But you loose activations/deployment and they can avoid them.

Fleet Ambush: Don't take this ever is my rule of thumb. I'm happy to play this as first player for so many reasons.

Navigation Objectives:

Superior Postions: The biggest point potential for Navigation but it requires building around with squadrons.

Intel Sweep: A harder blue objective to play because the first player can steal your Objective Tokken. You can set this up for easy collection via the triangle method but it locks you in to flying a certain way. A much more uncertain objective but it can be the easist 75 points you get or hard fought.

Dangerous Territory: If you have this in your Objective pool most people will pick if given hard choices. This can be good. Because you can easil clump 4 debris together to collect points and now all your ships take no Damage from debris. It's not to most fun or blowout Objective but it is consistent.

Minefields: A horrible objective for points. If you deploy it certain ways many people will just take a draw rather than risking running the minefield. You end up walling them in and protecting them!

Summery:

*The higher potential points you can gain the less likey they are to choose an Objective

*If they are all high point Objectives then they will be forced to pick one anyway! Put as much pontetial punishment on them

*Practice 'playing to an Objective' maximise a point blowout stratergy, aim for the highest MoV possible

*You can always have a "soft" Objective set against hard ones to make it more likey for them to pick it ie: Dangerous Territory vs Fire Lanes & Precison Strike, go on to think/play it in an effecicent way and you will end up with a suprising amount of points

nice write up, i have realised in hindsight that fleet ambush on the glad list is a big no no, however on the reb list i originally posted i think its still valid choice. it nigh on puts at least 1 of his ship in your gun range from turn one. 2-3 ships firing at it kills it by turn 2 normally