Why not take Headhunters instead?

I just don't get on with Z-95s, especially as a Rebel ship whereas I am hugely fond of A-Wings.

Maybe it's the old Han Solo novels but I never really saw the Z-95 as a ship that should be viable in the Galactic Civil War era. It's purely a matter of opinion of course, but I really wish that the Rebel swarm ship was the A-Wing and S&V had got Y-TIE Uglys as their swarmer. Honestly I'd rather have the N-1 than the Z-95, at least the N-1 wasn't already obsolete by the beginning of the Clone Wars.

Have you ever tried a VI Lando variant instead of Han, with 3 A-Wings?

Have you ever tried a VI Lando variant instead of Han, with 3 A-Wings?

I've not, no. What are you doing with the two points, Nien Nunb? Crew Dash?

I feel my arguments have been vindicated because you can't actually address them and instead have to complain about me being rude.

Ah, we're going for a 'Trump Defence' are we?

EDIT: More to the point, what "arguments" have you actually presented? You've offered an opinion that turrets aren't fun and take away from core reasons to play the game. You've not actually argued anything at all.

Perhaps that's why nobody has addressed them; because there is nothing to address. Why should anybody even bother engaging with you over your opinion, when you've made it quite clear through your commentary that you're not actually interested in a reasonable discussion or conversation? You're convinced turrets are terrible, rubbish those who like playing them, and no matter what anyone else says or does, noting will change this.

This game had built into it a heavy emphasis on predicting your opponent's maneuvers well and maneuvering your own ship well such that it got actions and firing arcs on things. That's quite clearly the main point of this game, and fat turrets ignore all of that.

If someone isn't playing this game to enjoy predicting opponent's maneuvers or maneuvering his own ships well, then why is he playing?

I suppose that is the 'Trump Defense'. I don't think it's relevant that Trump is obnoxious, I think it's relevant that the ideas he supports are awful yet it seems that a significant portion of the attention he gets is about how rude he is as he's advocating torture or building a wall between the US and Mexico because deytukerjerbs or whatever else awful crap he wants to do.

The basis for your argument is completely wrong. Dash for example cares a lot about what his opponent is doing. He's extremely vulnerable to bumping and has the range one doughnut hole to worry about. On top of that there is this little upgrade called Autothrusters that give him a bonus for having his opponents in arc.

Pretending that he can just select any maneuver and leave it at that is completely misleading. Just look at last years worlds game when it came down to Whisper vs Dash, that entire game was all about maneuvering. Dash needed to bump with Whisper to be able to get past without being killed and take the game to long range shots.

I initially groaned when I saw what was about to be streamed. I was pleasantly surprised by the K-Turn from the Phantom player.

That game is the exception though. Only entertaining Turretwing match I've ever seen.

Turret players never manuever specifically to deny Autothrusters. Only time I've ever seen a fat turret K-Turn is when my opponent sets up sideways and does it to throw me off in the first turn or two. Even when faced with 5x Autothruster Alpha they still just run away and try to orbit you.

I do. I probably won't k-turn just because of them, but that's because I think a focus token will be better for my damage output than disabling the Autothrusters. There's also Dengar, who is only worth having at all if he stares people down. If you aren't managing Dengar's arc it means you should have used Trevura. I assume you hate Dengar the least for this reason, though.

And again, turret ships do need to plan around enemy movement. I don't want my Han/Dash/Chirpy playing shot-for-shot with a bunch of B-Wings or TIE fighters. Turret primaries don't win that game. They're also expensive as hell, as I am reminded every time I start building a list with a Punishing One. Fat Han may be a beast, but once upgraded he costs a little more than 4 Z-95s, maybe as much as five depending on loadout. That's 3 red dice instead of 8-10, assuming nobody made it into range 1. It does take skill to handle the loss in overall firepower that comes from using non-Dengar turrets, just not the same skills it takes to play non-turreted ships.

As for what people who play turreted ships get out of the game...what, do you think there's a strict divide between people who do/don't play turreted ships? I was on an Interceptor binge up until wave eight came out, mostly playing variations of Palp Aces. Now I'm all about Dengar and sometimes Tel Trevura. I also went through a Dash Rendar phase a while back. Sometimes I just look at my list and decide that what it needs is an Outrider. I'm more likely to feel like playing a list that focuses on a given strategy, and if a turreted ship is well suited to that approach I'll use it. For example I may feel like playing a list that tries to lure my opponent into attacking a hard target so I can flank them with jousters. For that I might use Tel Trevura, because he can retreat and attack in the same turn and cheats death once per game, which makes him a pilot that people don't want to leave alone. Or I might use Dengar because people really don't want the end game to come down to their last guy vs Dengar, because odds are very good they will lose that fight. I rarely start a list by saying I want to play a big turret and going from there, but if my list would benefit I'll use one and I'll definitely take advantage of my turret in game.

you will bore yourself to death with Fat Han's archaic game design

the model is beautiful and Han is Han, but the primary turret was a pretty big mistake in a game dependent on maneuvering that'll devolve it into a bunch of dice rolling. That used to be an advantage for Han, but now so much tech exists that can shoot through his defenses (TLTs, crackshot, juke, ordnance etc.) that he's not even effective anymore.

Dash is not a primary turret. With HLC, he has a glaring range blindspot that really forces you to plan ahead and exploit the hell out of his ability to survive. He makes for very tense and engaging games, especially if you're man enough to go without EU

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

Have you ever tried a VI Lando variant instead of Han, with 3 A-Wings?

I've not, no. What are you doing with the two points, Nien Nunb? Crew Dash?

Dash is not a primary turret. With HLC, he has a glaring range blindspot that really forces you to plan ahead and exploit the hell out of his ability to survive. He makes for very tense and engaging games, especially if you're man enough to go without EU

This is exactly why Dash is one of my favourite pilots to run. I've never had a game with him that didn't feel like my manoeuvre selection was absolutely critical to my success or failure.

Dash is not a primary turret. With HLC, he has a glaring range blindspot that really forces you to plan ahead and exploit the hell out of his ability to survive. He makes for very tense and engaging games, especially if you're man enough to go without EU

This is exactly why Dash is one of my favourite pilots to run. I've never had a game with him that didn't feel like my manoeuvre selection was absolutely critical to my success or failure.

extra critical when you run into PS 9 turrets or palp aces

those make for games to remember

you will bore yourself to death with Fat Han's archaic game design

the model is beautiful and Han is Han, but the primary turret was a pretty big mistake in a game dependent on maneuvering that'll devolve it into a bunch of dice rolling. That used to be an advantage for Han, but now so much tech exists that can shoot through his defenses (TLTs, crackshot, juke, ordnance etc.) that he's not even effective anymore

If I play him every game, sure. But then again Interceptors got boring after I played them enough, just like the TIE Advanced before them and the B-Wing before that. I'm just rejecting ParaGoomba's belief that turrets are a no skill option. Easier in some ways, sure. But there is a very obvious difference between a good player and a bad player even if they're both running a Fat Han. I'm tired of Para feeling the need to show up and rant about it every time someone starts a thread about turret primary ships. He reminds me of a drunk sports fan at a bar that won't stop yelling at anyone wearing a different jersey.

Points for being aware of how different the Outrider is from regular turreted ships. I've had people get into the donut hole and it's a pretty steep price to pay for whatever mistake allowed them to do that. As I mentioned earlier, I also think of Dengar as being different because his power is entirely dependent on his arc facing the right way. Part of my issue with ParaGoomba's attitude is that he seems unwilling to acknowledge these things.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who hasn't stopped whining about the exact same thing over and over for what, two years now? Three? At some point you need to just accept that FFG isn't going to take turrets out of the game and move on with your life.

Year and a half about.

I've mostly stopped as complaining about turrets as they stopped being in 70% of lists.

I don't see how what I've said is incorrect. I've asked what do fat turret players get out of the game because turrets ignore everything that makes this game great besides for aesthetics and I've just been told to stop being rude and that I'm not owed an explanation and that my tastes are different.

No one has addressed my actual question and is just getting mad about me being rude. This just perpetuates what you guys don't like about me, because when the only criticisms I receive are about my tone or my use of hyperbole or some other irrelevant thing, I feel my arguments have been vindicated because you can't actually address them and instead have to complain about me being rude.

Yes, you've won Para. You won an argument about an issue this "help a new player" thread wasn't about. Congratulations.

you will bore yourself to death with Fat Han's archaic game design

the model is beautiful and Han is Han, but the primary turret was a pretty big mistake in a game dependent on maneuvering that'll devolve it into a bunch of dice rolling. That used to be an advantage for Han, but now so much tech exists that can shoot through his defenses (TLTs, crackshot, juke, ordnance etc.) that he's not even effective anymore

If I play him every game, sure. But then again Interceptors got boring after I played them enough, just like the TIE Advanced before them and the B-Wing before that. I'm just rejecting ParaGoomba's belief that turrets are a no skill option. Easier in some ways, sure. But there is a very obvious difference between a good player and a bad player even if they're both running a Fat Han. I'm tired of Para feeling the need to show up and rant about it every time someone starts a thread about turret primary ships. He reminds me of a drunk sports fan at a bar that won't stop yelling at anyone wearing a different jersey.

Points for being aware of how different the Outrider is from regular turreted ships. I've had people get into the donut hole and it's a pretty steep price to pay for whatever mistake allowed them to do that. As I mentioned earlier, I also think of Dengar as being different because his power is entirely dependent on his arc facing the right way. Part of my issue with ParaGoomba's attitude is that he seems unwilling to acknowledge these things.

Dengar's weird, being half-way between Han and Dash

you don't actually have to leverage your ability if you're not getting shot (though I guess you couldn't if you weren't) so you're free to PWT it up, but going against the amount of damage cancel present in the game that ability becomes more and more crucial

played against him a few times; pretty crazy the amount of options he has available. It is also pretty neat to have to gauge the difference between his left and right maneuverability

having those sharp differences in effectiveness (Arc v out; left v right) allow for varied engagements, whereas Han is just rolling dice and hoping you brought more/he doesn't get lucky

regardless of goomba's opinion, the yt-1300 is just an older ship (Wave 2) suffering from old (relatively poor) game design that thought it'd be a good idea to release the interceptor alongside its kryptonite. It's simply not as well designed as every other primary turret that came after (which is every other primary turret). Even the VT-49 can leverage bombs and the manly oicuun to vary things up; han has no such option (...one missile slot?)

Edit: disregard post

you will bore yourself to death with Fat Han's archaic game design

the model is beautiful and Han is Han, but the primary turret was a pretty big mistake in a game dependent on maneuvering that'll devolve it into a bunch of dice rolling. That used to be an advantage for Han, but now so much tech exists that can shoot through his defenses (TLTs, crackshot, juke, ordnance etc.) that he's not even effective anymore

If I play him every game, sure. But then again Interceptors got boring after I played them enough, just like the TIE Advanced before them and the B-Wing before that. I'm just rejecting ParaGoomba's belief that turrets are a no skill option. Easier in some ways, sure. But there is a very obvious difference between a good player and a bad player even if they're both running a Fat Han. I'm tired of Para feeling the need to show up and rant about it every time someone starts a thread about turret primary ships. He reminds me of a drunk sports fan at a bar that won't stop yelling at anyone wearing a different jersey.

Points for being aware of how different the Outrider is from regular turreted ships. I've had people get into the donut hole and it's a pretty steep price to pay for whatever mistake allowed them to do that. As I mentioned earlier, I also think of Dengar as being different because his power is entirely dependent on his arc facing the right way. Part of my issue with ParaGoomba's attitude is that he seems unwilling to acknowledge these things.

Dengar's weird, being half-way between Han and Dash

you don't actually have to leverage your ability if you're not getting shot (though I guess you couldn't if you weren't) so you're free to PWT it up, but going against the amount of damage cancel present in the game that ability becomes more and more crucial

played against him a few times; pretty crazy the amount of options he has available. It is also pretty neat to have to gauge the difference between his left and right maneuverability

having those sharp differences in effectiveness (Arc v out; left v right) allow for varied engagements, whereas Han is just rolling dice and hoping you brought more/he doesn't get lucky

regardless of goomba's opinion, the yt-1300 is just an older ship (Wave 2) suffering from old (relatively poor) game design that thought it'd be a good idea to release the interceptor alongside its kryptonite. It's simply not as well designed as every other primary turret that came after (which is every other primary turret). Even the VT-49 can leverage bombs and the manly oicuun to vary things up; han has no such option (...one missile slot?)

I can agree that the Falcon is the least interesting of turrets. It'd be nice to something that would encourage a unique playstyle for the YT-1300, though I don't see them releasing a "lol take this ParaGoombaSlayer Aces" pack any time soon. I'd lean towards encouraging the Falcon to move at high speed since it's a very fast ship. Something like getting a pseudo-focus if you move at speed 3+, maybe? I don't know, I just want it to have a gimmick like the other big turrets do.

I actually don't consider Dengar a PWT. I fly him like I have a primary arc only. If I can't get someone in it, oh well here's the 270 degree auxiliary arc.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who hasn't stopped whining about the exact same thing over and over for what, two years now? Three? At some point you need to just accept that FFG isn't going to take turrets out of the game and move on with your life.

Year and a half about.

I've mostly stopped as complaining about turrets as they stopped being in 70% of lists.

I don't see how what I've said is incorrect. I've asked what do fat turret players get out of the game because turrets ignore everything that makes this game great besides for aesthetics and I've just been told to stop being rude and that I'm not owed an explanation and that my tastes are different.

No one has addressed my actual question and is just getting mad about me being rude. This just perpetuates what you guys don't like about me, because when the only criticisms I receive are about my tone or my use of hyperbole or some other irrelevant thing, I feel my arguments have been vindicated because you can't actually address them and instead have to complain about me being rude.

Yes, you've won Para. You won an argument about an issue this "help a new player" thread wasn't about. Congratulations.

Feels good to be right.

One of Alan Ruck's lines from Ferris Bueller's day off (the part where he's impersonating Mr. Peterson) would be so appropriate right now...

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

Or someone can't stand a pile of "2nd and 19th alphabet letter put together".

p.s. Interesting that you responded only to guys that said you'r rude and blah blah. Why no response to arguments that in fact were countering yours?

you will bore yourself to death with Fat Han's archaic game design

the model is beautiful and Han is Han, but the primary turret was a pretty big mistake in a game dependent on maneuvering that'll devolve it into a bunch of dice rolling. That used to be an advantage for Han, but now so much tech exists that can shoot through his defenses (TLTs, crackshot, juke, ordnance etc.) that he's not even effective anymore

If I play him every game, sure. But then again Interceptors got boring after I played them enough, just like the TIE Advanced before them and the B-Wing before that. I'm just rejecting ParaGoomba's belief that turrets are a no skill option. Easier in some ways, sure. But there is a very obvious difference between a good player and a bad player even if they're both running a Fat Han. I'm tired of Para feeling the need to show up and rant about it every time someone starts a thread about turret primary ships. He reminds me of a drunk sports fan at a bar that won't stop yelling at anyone wearing a different jersey.

Points for being aware of how different the Outrider is from regular turreted ships. I've had people get into the donut hole and it's a pretty steep price to pay for whatever mistake allowed them to do that. As I mentioned earlier, I also think of Dengar as being different because his power is entirely dependent on his arc facing the right way. Part of my issue with ParaGoomba's attitude is that he seems unwilling to acknowledge these things.

Dengar's weird, being half-way between Han and Dash

you don't actually have to leverage your ability if you're not getting shot (though I guess you couldn't if you weren't) so you're free to PWT it up, but going against the amount of damage cancel present in the game that ability becomes more and more crucial

played against him a few times; pretty crazy the amount of options he has available. It is also pretty neat to have to gauge the difference between his left and right maneuverability

having those sharp differences in effectiveness (Arc v out; left v right) allow for varied engagements, whereas Han is just rolling dice and hoping you brought more/he doesn't get lucky

regardless of goomba's opinion, the yt-1300 is just an older ship (Wave 2) suffering from old (relatively poor) game design that thought it'd be a good idea to release the interceptor alongside its kryptonite. It's simply not as well designed as every other primary turret that came after (which is every other primary turret). Even the VT-49 can leverage bombs and the manly oicuun to vary things up; han has no such option (...one missile slot?)

I can agree that the Falcon is the least interesting of turrets. It'd be nice to something that would encourage a unique playstyle for the YT-1300, though I don't see them releasing a "lol take this ParaGoombaSlayer Aces" pack any time soon. I'd lean towards encouraging the Falcon to move at high speed since it's a very fast ship. Something like getting a pseudo-focus if you move at speed 3+, maybe? I don't know, I just want it to have a gimmick like the other big turrets do.

Old C3PO+Luke Falcon was boring as hell, true. But when you start to experiment with new crew members it starts to be young again.

If someone isn't playing this game to enjoy predicting opponent's maneuvers or maneuvering his own ships well, then why is he playing?

Because it's Star Wars? Honestly, if this were a tabletop Battlestar Galactica, I wouldn't be anywhere near it.

But since I can fly a list with Chewbacca and Wedge in it, I'm here. I LIKE that the Falcon has a turret. Because in the movies, THE FALCON HAS TURRETS AND FLYING IT FEELS LIKE THE MOVIES.

Not everyone is playing this for the same reasons.

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

You really are constitutionally incapable of even considering the idea you might be in the wrong, aren't you? That's amazing. The game developers keep adding turrets, you keep arguing turrets have no place in the game. The community asks you to not be a jerk to a new poster, you just keep going. The forum moderators give you a warning for your behavior, you just triple down and keep going.

You really are a piece of work.

, especially if you're dumb enough to go without EU

Fixed that for you, as protest against using man as synonym for stupid.

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

No, you got it for being rude to a new player and a new member of the forums. Learn some manners, and it might not happen again.

But then, that would entail you having the ability to see past your own blinkered idea of what the game should be like and how people should play it.

Looks like you haven't learnt your lesson.

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

No, you got it for being rude to a new player and a new member of the forums. Learn some manners, and it might not happen again.

But then, that would entail you having the ability to see past your own blinkered idea of what the game should be like and how people should play it.

Looks like you haven't learnt your lesson.

I've learned my lesson to not destroy the hug box. I'm not going to get myself banned. I submit to the hug box I suppose, I really have no choice if I want to stay here.

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

No, you got it for being rude to a new player and a new member of the forums. Learn some manners, and it might not happen again.

But then, that would entail you having the ability to see past your own blinkered idea of what the game should be like and how people should play it.

Looks like you haven't learnt your lesson.

I don't see why manners are relevant as long as I'm right...

You must be a real delight to deal with in person, what with an attitude like that...

I don't see why manners are relevant as long as I'm right.

That's a big "as long as," and one that -- as has been shown again and again -- isn't the case. The community has repeatedly told you that you just hold an opinion (not a fact), the direction of the game has shown you that you just hold an opinion (not a fact), as such the game developers disagree with that opinion (not fact) or they'd stop making the ships and upgrades they are, and now the moderators have just shown you that you're stating your opinion (not fact) in a disruptive way...and yet here we are. You just can't let it go.

So I got a warning for my first post in this thread. Looks like someone can't stand the truth.

No, you got it for being rude to a new player and a new member of the forums. Learn some manners, and it might not happen again.

But then, that would entail you having the ability to see past your own blinkered idea of what the game should be like and how people should play it.

Looks like you haven't learnt your lesson.

I don't see why manners are relevant as long as I'm right. Beethoven is better than Nickelback, just like X-Wing where the ships have to get each other in arc is better than when the ships don't care where they move and don't care what they have in arc. The Star Wars Holiday Special is just as good as Empire Strikes Back, it's all subjective and you just have a blinkered idea of what Star Wars should be like, right?

I've learned my lesson to not destroy the hug box. I'm not going to get myself banned. I submit to the hug box I suppose, I really have no choice if I want to stay here.

Exactly. You have 'no choice', because manners develop to stop people like me punching people like you in the face, which translates in the internet to swing the ban hammer. This is a simple social mechanic to keep communities together, healthy and beneficial to its members. And the best part about it is that you indeed do not need to understand it, it enough that you follow up.

All that said, usually if everyone is telling you that you are wrong then you are wrong. It's not a 100% fool-proofed system, but it makes it worth at least to honestly reconsider. Besides that, your opinion seems to be based on wrong facts in the first place, might be because your local group is especially bad or because people don't need to 'fly gud' against you. Whatever the reasons are, I can assure you a lot more people fly their turrets with positioning in mind than you seem to assume. Maybe you run in one to many outriders where positioning indeed means to fly away and don't get blocked. Whatever the case, you made plenty of simply wrong statements about how those turrets get and should get played, which makes you opinion invalid as the facts don't line up that way. Heavers list and how he flies them were already mentioned and it's not like he is a unique unicorn, he is just outstanding good at flying and turn zero.