Evening all, from the UK,

I'm a guy who enjoys using elite pilots, and having them kitted out really well etc. I normally end up only fielding one Large ship and one small ship. So, I'm struggling on which of the compared lists will be most effective:

1) Super Dash + Corran Horn /w VI, R2-D2, FCS = 100pts or Fat Han + Corran Horn /w VI, FCS = 100pts

2) Super Dash + Miranda /w TLT, C-3PO, EU = 100pts or Fat Han + Miranda /w TLT, Jan Ors = 99pts

3) Super Dash + Poe /w PTL, R2-D2, WG (Weapons Guidance), Auto T = 100pts or Fat Han + Poe /w VI, R2-D2, Auto T = 100pts

Thanks for any help in advance,

Jack

P.S. My 'Fat Han' uses Gunner and not Luke.

Evening all, from the UK,

I'm a guy who enjoys using elite pilots, and having them kitted out really well etc. I normally end up only fielding one Large ship and one small ship. So, I'm struggling on which of the compared lists will be most effective:

1) Super Dash + Corran Horn /w VI, R2-D2, FCS = 100pts or Fat Han + Corran Horn /w VI, FCS = 100pts

2) Super Dash + Miranda /w TLT, C-3PO, EU = 100pts or Fat Han + Miranda /w TLT, Jan Ors = 99pts

3) Super Dash + Poe /w PTL, R2-D2, WG (Weapons Guidance), Auto T = 100pts or Fat Han + Poe /w VI, R2-D2, Auto T = 100pts

Thanks for any help in advance,

Jack

P.S. My 'Fat Han' uses Gunner and not Luke.

Why don't you play a real list sometime?

Ignore Para, quite a few around here do. Play what you enjoy not someone else's perception of, "real," X-Wing (something akin to a true Scotsman). I tend to prefer Dash over Han, but that may be because back in the WEG Star Wars Tabletop days I spent most of a campaign trying to get a YT-2400 for my smuggler character...

That said, I had great fun with a fat-ish Han last week against a friend's YV-666 & Firesprey list. Mess around and see what suits your play stole best.

Why don't you play a real list sometime?

Mean but true.

Screw Super Dash, Rainbow Dash (Kanan) is waaaay more fun.

You may have a little trouble getting much feedback on the Two Ship List archetype given how widely loathed it is. I'll try though.

If you want build advice you'll need to list the build in entirety. Fat Han and Super Dash aren't specific builds, especially Fat Han. I'm fairly sure you mean Dash Rendar (Engine Upgrade, Kyle Katarn, Push The Limit, Outrider, Heavy Laser Cannon) by Super Dash, but Fat Han describes a broad array of different Falcon setups with the common factor being Han, C-3PO and the Falcon title.

As for effectiveness, strength and weakness, you've got a Fat Turret and a Rebel Regenerator in each. They're not going to be that different. Dash Rendar's got higher firepower to punch through enemy mitigation but has his donut hole weakness and that's about the extent of the dissimilarity in the turrets. The regenerator part is again fairly similar in role and performance save for Miranda who's another turret.

The two ship list relied in the past on being able to "point fort", which is where you load a lot of points into a single ship and if it doesn't die it counts as unharmed. FFG introduced half points at half health, meaning two ship lists can no longer do this: they need to push for annihilation like squads with more ships in them.

When forced to do thus, the weaknesses of a two ship squad begin to stand out: low firepower means they don't have a very high damage output. Defensively they're also in trouble as the game has far more tools to deal with supermitigation now. A two ship list in a Wave 7 environment has to contend with TLT spam, and in Wave 8 the Ordnance Renaissance.

In brief, the two ship list isn't a particularly powerful strategy any more, so if you're looking for maximum power they're probably not going to perform. If you're playing them for the love of them, then play the one you enjoy the most.

Just to add to Blue Star's excellent post, Dengar probably outperforms both of them in the current environment and is (slightly) cheaper.

Yeah, Para has over 2500 posts and at least 2000 are kvetching about turrets (I kid, I kid, but seriously, para, you do cross the border into straight up mean towards brand new community members, maybe cool it a little?)

I personally am a huge fan of Super Dash plus Miranda. If your local community involves a lot of the current "meta" lists (meaning palp aces, TLT spam, trip U-boat), you are probably going to suffer, but the list can be a lot of fun. In my opinion, the list DOES get a little old after a while (the ghost came out just as I was getting really burnt out on "1 bank, remove stress, barrel roll, boost. Rinse, repeat.")

To echo para's sentiment in a less harsh way, playing turrets can turn into a vicious cycle if you are new to the game. Turrets are far more forgiving than position dependent ships, and so relying on them can result in you feeling frustrated if you move to arced ships, which pushes you back to turrets. For that reason I would say, first and foremost, play what you like. If you can though, supplement your turret ship with a non-turret ship to get used to that style of play as well. Also, there are still players out there that are overly hostile to turrets. There are plenty of anti-turret tools in the game now, so I don't really get it, but it is what it is. Luckily in my local community the anti-turret crowd is very small and largely ignored (they are the players who are just...well...bad, and find something in EVERY list that beats them to complain about and call op). However, not all communities are the same, and depending on your local scene, you may want a non-turret list in your back pocket. Normally I wouldn't condone not playing the ships you like because someone has a stick up their rear, but if it means the difference between getting games in and not. Well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Evening all, from the UK,

I'm a guy who enjoys using elite pilots, and having them kitted out really well etc. I normally end up only fielding one Large ship and one small ship. So, I'm struggling on which of the compared lists will be most effective:

1) Super Dash + Corran Horn /w VI, R2-D2, FCS = 100pts or Fat Han + Corran Horn /w VI, FCS = 100pts

2) Super Dash + Miranda /w TLT, C-3PO, EU = 100pts or Fat Han + Miranda /w TLT, Jan Ors = 99pts

3) Super Dash + Poe /w PTL, R2-D2, WG (Weapons Guidance), Auto T = 100pts or Fat Han + Poe /w VI, R2-D2, Auto T = 100pts

Thanks for any help in advance,

Jack

P.S. My 'Fat Han' uses Gunner and not Luke.

Why don't you play a real list sometime?

Pull your head in Para, the whining has gotten real old, and new members don't need your rudeness.

Yeah, Para has over 2500 posts and at least 2000 are kvetching about turrets (I kid, I kid, but seriously, para, you do cross the border into straight up mean towards brand new community members, maybe cool it a little?)

I personally am a huge fan of Super Dash plus Miranda. If your local community involves a lot of the current "meta" lists (meaning palp aces, TLT spam, trip U-boat), you are probably going to suffer, but the list can be a lot of fun. In my opinion, the list DOES get a little old after a while (the ghost came out just as I was getting really burnt out on "1 bank, remove stress, barrel roll, boost. Rinse, repeat.")

To echo para's sentiment in a less harsh way, playing turrets can turn into a vicious cycle if you are new to the game. Turrets are far more forgiving than position dependent ships, and so relying on them can result in you feeling frustrated if you move to arced ships, which pushes you back to turrets. For that reason I would say, first and foremost, play what you like. If you can though, supplement your turret ship with a non-turret ship to get used to that style of play as well. Also, there are still players out there that are overly hostile to turrets. There are plenty of anti-turret tools in the game now, so I don't really get it, but it is what it is. Luckily in my local community the anti-turret crowd is very small and largely ignored (they are the players who are just...well...bad, and find something in EVERY list that beats them to complain about and call op). However, not all communities are the same, and depending on your local scene, you may want a non-turret list in your back pocket. Normally I wouldn't condone not playing the ships you like because someone has a stick up their rear, but if it means the difference between getting games in and not. Well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Spot on. Also agree with a previous post recommending Kanan over Kyle on Dash, which makes him less predictable AND more fun to play, IMO - helps mitigate some of the "1 bank, remove stress, barrel roll, boost. Rinse, repeat." Also want to suggest another wingman possibility that I've had a lot of success with lately:

Major Tom, on 28 Mar 2016 - 6:20 PM, said:Major Tom, on 28 Mar 2016 - 6:20 PM, said:

I tend to prefer Dash over Han, but that may be because back in the WEG Star Wars Tabletop days I spent most of a campaign trying to get a YT-2400 for my smuggler character...

That said, I had great fun with a fat-ish Han last week against a friend's YV-666 & Firesprey list. Mess around and see what suits your play stole best.

2nd WEG. As a smuggler/Merc/Scout it was the 2400... a fighter pilot the E-wing. No brainer what to run for me.

I would go Kanan Dash and Corran.

Or add a Lothal + IA + Leebo + FCS

The other tricky part with giving advice about what will be "the most effective" is that, put plainly, nobody on the internet can tell you that. There's no magic bullet list that everyone will play well against all comers (and something would be very wrong with the game if there was). Right?

So put together a list or two that you like, and play it. Which minis do you like the look of? Find the ones that make you want to touch-up the paint job, which ones make you want to crack open a Star Wars novel, which ones make you want to make little starship noises while you move them (hell, I played Corran all through last year's tournaments because I'd just told Michael Stackpole I was going to, and he signed my card for me at GenCon).

Make up lists. See which you prefer. See which performs better against your own community's little local meta. See which one you beat your buddy Dave with, versus which one Kevin always stomps, versus which one gets a real nail-biter against Andrew. Play the game. Fly a list you like, sling dice, and have fun learning which one you like, instead of trying to find the perfect list ahead of time.

Ignore Para, quite a few around here do. Play what you enjoy not someone else's perception of, "real," X-Wing (something akin to a true Scotsman). I tend to prefer Dash over Han, but that may be because back in the WEG Star Wars Tabletop days I spent most of a campaign trying to get a YT-2400 for my smuggler character...

That said, I had great fun with a fat-ish Han last week against a friend's YV-666 & Firesprey list. Mess around and see what suits your play stole best.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

The Problem with Han and Dash is they're not Dengar.

You slimy slimy pond scum. =P

Why not both?

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

Because we don't wanna be elitist jerkbags and instead want to encourage everyone and have a polite, friendly community.

I like Super Dash and Miranda personally. Both can move around the board a whole lot and you can keep em together or have them both just go crazy.

Edited to get back on topic.

To the OP, I would lean towards Dash & Miranda out of those lists. While I don't really fly Rebels, that combination has been extremely effective every time I've gone up against it.

With that said, you will do best with a list that you know very well rather than simply the "strongest" list.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who hasn't stopped whining about the exact same thing over and over for what, two years now? Three? At some point you need to just accept that FFG isn't going to take turrets out of the game and move on with your life.

If you're going to play turret based lists constantly, why even play the game? A significant part of the game is about maneuvering and predicting your opponent's maneuvers well. If you're just going to run away the whole game and orbit things with your HLC turret, what are you getting out of the game?

Aesthetically the 2400 is pretty cool looking, has that 90's Nintendo Virtual Boy stink on it, but otherwise why?

I can understand the appeal of having all of your points into a super ship or two, I get that. But I don't understand how fat turret players enjoy(ed) the game. I genuinely do not. Numerous times I've almost pulled out quad Warden, quad Autoblaster Turret or double Decimator and then disgusted with myself, put it away in favor of something fun.

Phantom was broken as **** but at least it was fun to fly itself, and there was a certain novelty in running 2 of the named ones with a 14 point initiative bid before the nerf.

Luckily, nobody else needs your understanding (much less permission) to play the game. You don't have to understand how they enjoy the game, it'd just be cool if you'd back off and let them do so.

I don't see why we should respect the views of someone who just wants to pointlessly maneuver their ships around the board as if they won't have a shot with their turret and mindlessly throw dice around. Play a real list and /actually/ enjoy the game.

Or don't and just feed my 5 Alphas with Autothrusters easy wins. Go ahead, continually do 1 banks around the map with Determination Leebo and fat Chewy like a child, sure takes some skill.

It's almost as if he is talking about something that isn't a game. Except that it is. A game. It's a game.

PGS, we get you don't like flying turrets or playing against them. You've also made it abundantly clear that you don't consider it 'truly' maneuvering. Try to remember that your definition of fun differs from many here and a lot of us don't play competitively. We enjoy the game, we meet new people, most of which are really nice, and win or lose we consider it time well spent.

You come along and rain brown sludge over some guy who asked a legitimate question. A player, like me, that expects a legitimate response. I don't even mind a snarky response if it's imbedded in a good answer but your continued bashing of players that field PWTs has grown tiresom. You never heard the old expression, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"?

Please ease up on the anti turret tirades. It does nothing but hurt the game, this community and in the long run, you

Ahem. To bring this thread back on topic...

You may have a little trouble getting much feedback on the Two Ship List archetype given how widely loathed it is. I'll try though.

If you want build advice you'll need to list the build in entirety. Fat Han and Super Dash aren't specific builds, especially Fat Han. I'm fairly sure you mean Dash Rendar (Engine Upgrade, Kyle Katarn, Push The Limit, Outrider, Heavy Laser Cannon) by Super Dash, but Fat Han describes a broad array of different Falcon setups with the common factor being Han, C-3PO and the Falcon title.

As for effectiveness, strength and weakness, you've got a Fat Turret and a Rebel Regenerator in each. They're not going to be that different. Dash Rendar's got higher firepower to punch through enemy mitigation but has his donut hole weakness and that's about the extent of the dissimilarity in the turrets. The regenerator part is again fairly similar in role and performance save for Miranda who's another turret.

The two ship list relied in the past on being able to "point fort", which is where you load a lot of points into a single ship and if it doesn't die it counts as unharmed. FFG introduced half points at half health, meaning two ship lists can no longer do this: they need to push for annihilation like squads with more ships in them.

When forced to do thus, the weaknesses of a two ship squad begin to stand out: low firepower means they don't have a very high damage output. Defensively they're also in trouble as the game has far more tools to deal with supermitigation now. A two ship list in a Wave 7 environment has to contend with TLT spam, and in Wave 8 the Ordnance Renaissance.

In brief, the two ship list isn't a particularly powerful strategy any more, so if you're looking for maximum power they're probably not going to perform. If you're playing them for the love of them, then play the one you enjoy the most.

It's exactly this. Big turrets still aren't bad, but they need to play differently - rather than focusing on refusing to die all game, they have to focus on killing targets - while still staying alive, of course, bit in terms of banking points in a tournament, a large+small ship now gives up points at a rate similar to a 3-ship list, even if it doesn't actually lose anything.

The real trick is ordinance and TLTs, both of whom outgun the defense of the fat ships of today. Super dash should do well at dodging hostile ordinance by arc dodging, but will struggle to fight TLTs - who have exactly the same fire pattern as he does, so it'll come down to minimized fire rather than avoiding it entirely.

That said, a rebel regen that can avoid ordinance should still hold up pretty well - so a pairing that can hold up against both kinds of threats, while still swatting the imperial ace of the day, should do well.

The idea of a lothal rebel escorting dash is an interesting example, for instance.

You know, Para, if you want Super Dash and stuff to go away, you should probably support Rebel small ship buffs, as the only reason Super Dash is used as much as he is, is because it's one of the few good Rebel squads you can build anymore.