Except a double arc from a Raider I with Screed/OE/ACM does on average 5 damage +2 unbraceable, then 4 damage + 2 unbraceable.

Don't get me wrong, I love Raiders, but I think counting on a Raider double-arcing something (at least the way I've been using them, anyways) is probably unwise. It's got a good solid front arc, though, and there's nothing wrong with slapping an ordnance upgrade on there to up the damage if you like (Expanded Launchers being probably the most reliable but definitely the most expensive).

If I'm relying on double-arcing, I'm using Gladiators. Engine Techs set up double-arcs very well and a large quantity of black dice on the sides make the crit-dependent upgrades a lot more reliable.

While I'm not disputing that the Raider CAN be effective in that role, that is not the role I have had the most success with, as I discussed above. Also, unless I sorely misunderstand the term "double arc", how on Earth is the second shot 4 damage?

Yeah, I'm a little hung up on those damage estimates as well.

From where I'm sitting, Raider OE front arc (2blue/2black) with OE averages 4dmg, + ~70% chance of 2 ACM damage (generous estimate, assuming aggressive rerolls on the blacks which will drive your average base damage back down to the 3.5-3.75 region).

Then the side arc is 2 or 3 + ACM (burn the blue to Screed if you don't roll a natural crit).

Probably a ConFire for the second shot?

On both arcs, and assuming OE gets you the crit on both arcs?

I think you he underoverestimates their chances.

Note: I don't fly Imperials, and when I do, I don't fly Raiders. So I don't actually know their Weapon Loadout

The Raider 1 has 2blue 2black out the front, the Raider 2 has 3blue 1black out the front, both have 1blue 1black out the sides

I'll just leave this here in case we need a reference later .

I'll just point out, if I'm using a Raider 1 and looking for a crit from both arcs; I'll most likely have Screed. I'd attack from the front, and ConFire a black so with 3 rerollable I usually get a natural hit-crit, then I shoot out the side and use the blue to screed, unless I get lucky and get a natural hit-crit. This makes for a very reliable chance that your ordnance goes off on both shots. If I'm not running Screed, my raider isn't really in the fleet to be a damage dealer, and might not even have an ordnance upgrade.

2 blue dice + 2 black dice ( blue dice 75% chance of 1 damage / Black dice 75% chance of 1 hit, of which 25% gets you a hit/crit)

1 blue dice + 2 black dice

I have used this fleet for months, the average damage with (Concentrate fire) Ordnance Experts and Screed has been as stated, getting 1 hit, 1 hit, 1 hit/crit on, the side arc is not some amazing roll of the gods fluke, in around 10 games with this build, they averagely do 5 damage on the front, 4 damage on the side with a Conc fire, I'd consider myself unlucky not to get this output from them.

You can reroll with OE, you can spend a blue dice with an Accuracy to turn a black dice into a Hit/Crit.

So no you don't need to roll a crit on both arcs, you need to roll one crit on one arc.

Except a double arc from a Raider I with Screed/OE/ACM does on average 5 damage +2 unbraceable, then 4 damage + 2 unbraceable.

Don't get me wrong, I love Raiders, but I think counting on a Raider double-arcing something (at least the way I've been using them, anyways) is probably unwise. It's got a good solid front arc, though, and there's nothing wrong with slapping an ordnance upgrade on there to up the damage if you like (Expanded Launchers being probably the most reliable but definitely the most expensive).

If I'm relying on double-arcing, I'm using Gladiators. Engine Techs set up double-arcs very well and a large quantity of black dice on the sides make the crit-dependent upgrades a lot more reliable.

I play 2 Glad I, 3 Raider I,

Unless you expect your fleet to do nothing while 2 Gladiators deal with all of the opposing ships, you have to use your raiders as damage dealing platforms, and OE/ACM allow a Raider I to be a real menace, this is not theory crafting, I have used this for a good while now.

Last Tournament I had 2 raider I's destroy a full health, full shield MC80 in 2 rounds double arc'ing it.

I mean I dunno what you want more from them, they have the same dice total as Gladiator out the front, and have 1 dice less out the side with a Conc Fire, they move faster, are more maneuverable at speed 2, they can do virtually the same job as a non Demolisher Gladiator for a **** sight less cost.

2 blue dice + 2 black dice ( blue dice 75% chance of 1 damage / Black dice 75% chance of 1 hit, of which 25% gets you a hit/crit)

1 blue dice + 2 black dice

I have used this fleet for months, the average damage with (Concentrate fire) Ordnance Experts and Screed has been as stated, getting 1 hit, 1 hit, 1 hit/crit on, the side arc is not some amazing roll of the gods fluke, in around 10 games with this build, they averagely do 5 damage on the front, 4 damage on the side with a Conc fire, I'd consider myself unlucky not to get this output from them.

You can reroll with OE, you can spend a blue dice with an Accuracy to turn a black dice into a Hit/Crit.

So no you don't need to roll a crit on both arcs, you need to roll one crit on one arc.

Just to be clear, you're using the Concentrate Fire on the side arc to increase the black dice available, since without Rapid Reload, it's just one each of blue and black?

2 blue dice + 2 black dice ( blue dice 75% chance of 1 damage / Black dice 75% chance of 1 hit, of which 25% gets you a hit/crit)

1 blue dice + 2 black dice

I have used this fleet for months, the average damage with (Concentrate fire) Ordnance Experts and Screed has been as stated, getting 1 hit, 1 hit, 1 hit/crit on, the side arc is not some amazing roll of the gods fluke, in around 10 games with this build, they averagely do 5 damage on the front, 4 damage on the side with a Conc fire, I'd consider myself unlucky not to get this output from them.

You can reroll with OE, you can spend a blue dice with an Accuracy to turn a black dice into a Hit/Crit.

So no you don't need to roll a crit on both arcs, you need to roll one crit on one arc.

Just to be clear, you're using the Concentrate Fire on the side arc to increase the black dice available, since without Rapid Reload, it's just one each of blue and black?

I thought it was abundantly clear, the only possible way to get an extra dice when you already have an Ordnance upgrade is with Concentrate Fire.

I think APT's in general as often when my Raiders are engaging its either to clean up a big ship that has already faced fire from a Gladiator or an ISD1 so I would rather have the guaranteed extra hull damage. APT's are perfect for taking out corvettes as you pretty much get yourself 2 hull damage. All you need to do is get 2 more damage to the hull not counting the option to ram as Raiders are maneuverable little buggers at speed 1 and 2. I love to park them just outside close setting up a double arc for the next turn. Generally if you keep them out of the big arcs of big ships they will survive in time to do around 7-9 damage plus APT's.

I play 2 Glad I, 3 Raider I,

Unless you expect your fleet to do nothing while 2 Gladiators deal with all of the opposing ships, you have to use your raiders as damage dealing platforms, and OE/ACM allow a Raider I to be a real menace, this is not theory crafting, I have used this for a good while now.

Last Tournament I had 2 raider I's destroy a full health, full shield MC80 in 2 rounds double arc'ing it.

I mean I dunno what you want more from them, they have the same dice total as Gladiator out the front, and have 1 dice less out the side with a Conc Fire, they move faster, are more maneuverable at speed 2, they can do virtually the same job as a non Demolisher Gladiator for a **** sight less cost.

This topic arose from the grave and I realized I hadn't responsed. Sorry.

I agree that the Raider's front arc battery is better, if slightly - blue dice are definitely better than red for our purposes here, but it's not a substantial difference. The main benefit is the improved odds of generating Accuracy icons and more reliable results overall, as both blue and red dice otherwise average 0.75 damage apiece but red dice are swingier due to the blank sides. I will note that occasionally the 2 red dice from a Gladiator are useful for early/late game harassment but yes, the blue dice are better overall here and they're on a cheaper ship. I'll also grant that the Raider has a slightly easier time of it setting up a Concentrate Fire at the appropriate moment, although I haven't had too many misfires timing a Gladiator's Concentrate Fire - it's usually pretty easy to tell if on the current turn (Navigate command) the Gladiator will be able to set up for an attack run and then you can issue a Concentrate Fire for the subsequent turn if you feel it would be necessary against the intended target.

The Gladiator's side batteries (4 black dice on a Gladiator-I) are vastly superior to the Raider's (1 black + 1 blue) and also easier to align due to their differing fire arcs (Gladiator is more of an even X, Raider is more of an offset X favoring the front arc with smaller side arcs, similar to a VSD). With Ordnance Experts in particular this is a substantial difference. Beyond that, the Gladiator can pack the amazing Engine Techs which offer some substantial benefits for positioning to get the double-arc as well as numerous other applications. It's not that you can't get double-arcs with Raiders, mind you, it's just that doing so is more difficult and (in my experience) less reliable, especially against smaller ships which are less generous targets.

The total Gladiator-I + Engine Techs package ends up being 20 points more expensive than an identically-outfitted Raider-I, but I've found that the Gladiator can be used aggressively a lot more capably due to the vastly superior broadsides, maneuverably superior Engine Techs, +1 hull point, Redirect token, arcs that are better for double-arcing, and better front shields (at the expense of one rear shield, which is in my opinion a slightly better setup).

Assuming you can get a double-arc with both a Raider and a Gladiator, the Gladiator is still going to have better odds of double-critting. The idea being that you can always count on Screed for your weaker attack (front from the Gladiator, side from the Raider) and focus on generating a crit from your stronger attack.

Example:

4 rerollable black dice from a Gladiator, assuming you reroll everything that's not a crit, have a 90% chance of generating a crit (68% chance of initial crit + (32% chance of not critting, forcing the reroll*68% chance of a crit coming up the second time)).

2 rerollable black dice from a Raider/front arc of a Gladiator, with the same assumptions, have a 69% chance of generating a crit (44% chance of initial crit + (56% chance of none, reroll*44% chance of reroll having 1+ crits))

With Concentrate Fire involved we get to...

3 rerollable black dice from a CF Raider/front arc of a Gladiator have an 82% chance of generating a crit (58% initial chance + ( 42%*58%))

5 rerollable black dice from a CF Gladiator broadside have a 94% chance of generating a crit (76% initial chance + (24%*76%)).

The odds get much better for the Raider with the Concentrate Fire, to be sure.

I guess what I'm getting at is:

I agree that Raiders can do a surprising amount of damage.

I agree that Raiders are worth using and it seems the forum in general is coming around on that as well, which I assume you also appreciate.

I agree that with Screed you can use them to get some crits in, sometimes getting double-crits, which is extremely strong.

I don't agree that Raiders are effectively equivalent to the Gladiator as assault craft. My own experience has been that Raiders seem to do best for me when I try to take advantage of their wide front arcs by activating them later on, as they can often "catch" other ships that blunder into range of their generous best arc. They can double-arc, but have a harder time of it than Gladiators and for a worse pay-off. They can't handle serious firepower as well as Gladiators can, either (and Gladiators aren't exactly super-durable, themselves).

When playing above 400 points there are often more ships so I always like ACM if I have the points because another ship will fly by that will benefit from the missing shields on the sides via less effective redirects. However, APT are also really cool to when you pull that nasty crit that doesn't allow one to ready their defense token for example. To add so flavor I have been thinking about make ACM imperial only and APT rebel only to add some personal touch to the sides.

I would like to have seen just a couple more upgrades that were rebel or imperial only. Maybe expanded hangers only for rebels and boosted coms for imperials for example. Just a thought.

I play 2 Glad I, 3 Raider I,

Unless you expect your fleet to do nothing while 2 Gladiators deal with all of the opposing ships, you have to use your raiders as damage dealing platforms, and OE/ACM allow a Raider I to be a real menace, this is not theory crafting, I have used this for a good while now.

Last Tournament I had 2 raider I's destroy a full health, full shield MC80 in 2 rounds double arc'ing it.

I mean I dunno what you want more from them, they have the same dice total as Gladiator out the front, and have 1 dice less out the side with a Conc Fire, they move faster, are more maneuverable at speed 2, they can do virtually the same job as a non Demolisher Gladiator for a **** sight less cost.

This topic arose from the grave and I realized I hadn't responsed. Sorry.

I agree that the Raider's front arc battery is better, if slightly - blue dice are definitely better than red for our purposes here, but it's not a substantial difference. The main benefit is the improved odds of generating Accuracy icons and more reliable results overall, as both blue and red dice otherwise average 0.75 damage apiece but red dice are swingier due to the blank sides. I will note that occasionally the 2 red dice from a Gladiator are useful for early/late game harassment but yes, the blue dice are better overall here and they're on a cheaper ship. I'll also grant that the Raider has a slightly easier time of it setting up a Concentrate Fire at the appropriate moment, although I haven't had too many misfires timing a Gladiator's Concentrate Fire - it's usually pretty easy to tell if on the current turn (Navigate command) the Gladiator will be able to set up for an attack run and then you can issue a Concentrate Fire for the subsequent turn if you feel it would be necessary against the intended target.

The Gladiator's side batteries (4 black dice on a Gladiator-I) are vastly superior to the Raider's (1 black + 1 blue) and also easier to align due to their differing fire arcs (Gladiator is more of an even X, Raider is more of an offset X favoring the front arc with smaller side arcs, similar to a VSD). With Ordnance Experts in particular this is a substantial difference. Beyond that, the Gladiator can pack the amazing Engine Techs which offer some substantial benefits for positioning to get the double-arc as well as numerous other applications. It's not that you can't get double-arcs with Raiders, mind you, it's just that doing so is more difficult and (in my experience) less reliable, especially against smaller ships which are less generous targets.

The total Gladiator-I + Engine Techs package ends up being 20 points more expensive than an identically-outfitted Raider-I, but I've found that the Gladiator can be used aggressively a lot more capably due to the vastly superior broadsides, maneuverably superior Engine Techs, +1 hull point, Redirect token, arcs that are better for double-arcing, and better front shields (at the expense of one rear shield, which is in my opinion a slightly better setup).

Assuming you can get a double-arc with both a Raider and a Gladiator, the Gladiator is still going to have better odds of double-critting. The idea being that you can always count on Screed for your weaker attack (front from the Gladiator, side from the Raider) and focus on generating a crit from your stronger attack.

Example:

4 rerollable black dice from a Gladiator, assuming you reroll everything that's not a crit, have a 90% chance of generating a crit (68% chance of initial crit + (32% chance of not critting, forcing the reroll*68% chance of a crit coming up the second time)).

2 rerollable black dice from a Raider/front arc of a Gladiator, with the same assumptions, have a 69% chance of generating a crit (44% chance of initial crit + (56% chance of none, reroll*44% chance of reroll having 1+ crits))

With Concentrate Fire involved we get to...

3 rerollable black dice from a CF Raider/front arc of a Gladiator have an 82% chance of generating a crit (58% initial chance + ( 42%*58%))

5 rerollable black dice from a CF Gladiator broadside have a 94% chance of generating a crit (76% initial chance + (24%*76%)).

The odds get much better for the Raider with the Concentrate Fire, to be sure.

I guess what I'm getting at is:

I agree that Raiders can do a surprising amount of damage.

I agree that Raiders are worth using and it seems the forum in general is coming around on that as well, which I assume you also appreciate.

I agree that with Screed you can use them to get some crits in, sometimes getting double-crits, which is extremely strong.

I don't agree that Raiders are effectively equivalent to the Gladiator as assault craft. My own experience has been that Raiders seem to do best for me when I try to take advantage of their wide front arcs by activating them later on, as they can often "catch" other ships that blunder into range of their generous best arc. They can double-arc, but have a harder time of it than Gladiators and for a worse pay-off. They can't handle serious firepower as well as Gladiators can, either (and Gladiators aren't exactly super-durable, themselves).

Well said,

My own games have shown me its not much difference between the two, yes of course they are less durable, but then again when ever possible I am not leaving them in positions for a return shot from a strong arc, does that make them less forgiving than a Gladiator? certainly. And yes they can be deadly positioned for things blundering into their front arcs.

I guess all I wanted to clarify is, they are around 20/25pts cheaper than a Non Demolisher Gladiator, of course they aren't the same, but they can come **** close to pumping out similar amounts of damage, which means instead of your opponent having to worry about 1/2/3 Gladiators, he/she now has to worry about your entire fleet, not just fixating on a few threats, everything is a big threat, and that advantage outweighs them being slightly less effective than a Gladiator.