This doesn't make sense. We were talking about a very specific scenario: the disadvantage of Mindlink when an outside source stresses one of your ships (and therefore stresses all Mindlinked ships). I compared the end result of that to what happens in the same situation to IG88s with push the limit or predator. And I demonstrated that the end result is the same whether you have Mindlink or PTL or pred.

So of course Mindlink is not there JUST to overcome its own weakness! Its there to give you better action economy on all the turns when you are not taking any stress (which is most of the time!). On the turns when you are taking stress, then its not any better or any worse than having advanced sensors + PTL or predator. I've already demonstrated that so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Your point about not being able to perform more than one red move per turn is valid though. Its a very real disadvantage of using Mindlink, no matter what ships you fly (turrets don't care as much though). If you either find that particular problem too limiting, or you simply do not want to figure out how to overcome it, then yes, Mindlink is not for you. However, I know from my own experience with Mindlink that its not crippling, and its no more of a disadvantage than certain other upgrades can have (such as PTL + advanced sensors).

The point is that, while, yes, you get some action economy there, PTL does the same or better in all scenarios. I think we are arguing the same point. Essentially mindlink with AS can function as PTL-lite that saves you some points. Right?

So far I've found mindlink on more than one jouster is not great to say the least. I have run it on brobots and on M3As and it's just bad all round, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages because jousters have to take reds sometimes and if more than one needs that, you run into big problems. Turrets don't suffer this problem as they have a lot more freedom of movement and especially one with a lot of greens like the jumpmaster, unhinged Y-wing or similar, getting stress from the other ship(s) is not a big deal.

Your 2nd point---compared to crackshot, its obvious that mindlink is a poor choice.

How exactly? Crackshot gives you a strong alpha strike allowing good damage during the early part of the game. Mindlink gives you better action economy which you can leverage all game long provided both of your IGs remain alive. Basically, crackshot is like a cheap, mini-predator; whereas Mindlink is like a cheap, mini-push the limit (but without the stress). So in that context, its not worse at all. In fact, Mindlink is much more versatile than crackshot. First turn of shooting, yes, crackshot will gaurantee one extra damage, but with mindlink, you have options. Your lead ship can have focus+evade to negate any damage incoming, or can take TL+focus to possibly erase a ship before it shoots. And you can keep this bonus action up as long as you have 2 IGs.

So yeah, I am not seeing how crackshot is 'obviously' better here and I think you are over-stating its value relative to Mindlink.

But crack shot doesn't come with the whopping stress downsides of mindlink. A well-placed crackshot can win games (and crackbots are a build you see for that reason). Sooner or later, mindlink restrictions on movement will lose you a game. But I'll concede your point, a free focus here or there is fairly equivalent and cheap for 1 point per ship if you can manage the stress.

Your 3rd point---Mindlink is better on anything but dual IGs (even Manaroo + IG is better).

You're welcome to have that opinion, but it is not a fact. I see no reason why dual IGs cannot fair as well (if not better) than IG + Manaroo. To me, the important thing is how does a particular build stack up against other popular meta builds out there? Double IGs have always struggled against high PS aces but are quite strong against other large-based ships and swarms. Having Mindlink & Feedback doesn't weaken any of the matchups IGs were already good at and helps against high PS aces (a little bit). Manaroo + IG88 does weaken the list against swarms, since Manaroo is not as hardy or as hard-hitting as a 2nd IG88, and it doesn't really provide a good answer against high PS aces unless you build Manaroo as a bumpmaster (but then you are sacrificing damage output even more).

I think you are being unfair. Did I say it was fact? I said "I think" 4 times in the post you quoted. I think you are reading something into my words that isn't there.

That said, jouster + turret both with mindlink is arguably better than 2x jouster. Most turrets nearly never need to make a red maneuver, so you can be safe with the jouster making a k or s move while the other can handle the stress. With 2+ jousters circumstances may well dictate that both wish to make a red maneuver. Purely in terms of getting mindlink to work, I feel it's pretty objective that jouster+turret is better. Now, sure, there may be other factors in terms of how you wish to build your list and the meta (being good against swarms etc), but that's moving the goalposts.

So I get you don't like Mindlink on double IG88s, and that's fine, you don't have to run it. But your arguments are not very compelling other than not being able to do more than one red move per turn and I agree that's a legitimate issue. But I would like to try it out for myself to see whether its a 'strong build', rather than just dismissing the build outright based on some feelings...

Heh, I'm not saying don't try it. But that leaves us not very much to talk about here, does it? The OP says it's a "very good" build, I disagree and we discuss the relative merits or lack thereof. By all means, I encourage you to try it. I've tried maybe half a dozen mindlink variations (mostly on vassal). I tried brobots, as I've said before I think the downsides were pretty crippling to the build for a saving of a few points. It does let you get two HLCs quite comfortably in the list but I feel movement is key with brobots and any limitation at all is not worth it (and mindlink is often pretty painful). Brobots suffer from stress lists already, this makes it worse.

I've also tried 4x M3-As with cannons and mindlink with utterly spectacularly bad results (I got one stress by hitting chopper and the whole squad couldn't turn around, it was comical). It did a very nice initial pass and then just couldn't sort itself out. I think there are definitely some nice applications of mindlink but I think a max of one jouster with it unless you have stress mitigation in some form.

I see no reason why dual IGs cannot fair as well (if not better) than IG + Manaroo.

"...cannot fare* as well..."

Other than that miniscule bit of pedantry, that was an excellent post. Kudos!

Thanks, and fixed!

(stuff)

Yeah, I am certainly not totally in disagreement with you. I agree that having turrets w/ mindlink is easier to manage. I don't think multiple jousters w/ mindlink are unplayable though. I have used mindlink successfully with (all on VASSAL):

2 scyks + Palob: one turret + 2 jousters. I had no troubles with red moves when using this list. Due to the way I approach enemies, I almost always get my scyks on two different 'lines' (meaning they aren't facing the same direction) fairly early in the match so that they cannot be both blocked and have greater arc coverage.

2 scyks + Guri: also no trouble with red moves. I only very rarely use red moves with Guri, so again, the Scyks can get turned around without too much difficulty. Ultimately, this list is not good though. Targeting priority is too easy for the opponent (kill the scyks first!).

2 khiraxz (Blacksun Aces) + Guri: again, this is not the most competitive list, but its fun. I keep all ships spread out and fly them more like arc-dodgers than jousters (the khiraxz have engine upgrade). K-turns are not needed often so again, red moves are not an issue.

I personally think 3 ships is ideal to get the most out of Attanni Mindlink, but that could be because of my playstyle. I think its too early to discount 2 or 4 ship builds though. I agree with you though that to make 4 ships work, I think you'd need at least one turret (maybe even 2). But I haven't tried 2 IGs w/ Mindlink yet, so I can't say for certain how it stacks up....

... But a Brobot squad that relies on PtL/Predator and Advanced Sensors is even more screwed by weaponized stress. Then you're just not getting any actions at all.

With Mindlink the stressed one can be just handed a focus.

If a ship with Mindlink is at risk of getting a stress from Debris or a ship or something, just move the other one first. I'm not defending quad Mindlink M3-A, I'm just talking about Brobots.

And I'm not comparing Mindlink with advanced sensors to predator with advanced sensors. I'm comparing Mindlink with FCS to predator with advanced sensors. That's very important because you benefit from FCS while getting an advanced sensors sort of effect by being able to hand a focus token to a ship that has slooped. It's not just Mindlink's effect in a vacuum, it's the rest of the build in general also.

I think there needs to be a Vassal duel. Not necessarily to settle the issue but to highlight the advantages and disadvantages of both valid approaches.

PTL / Adv sensors and Mindlink / FCS should perhaps face Paul's world's list in to see how stress mechanics both internal and external affect play.

IMHO neither of the principal participants in discussion above will concede that the other build is better. Nor should they. It is nice to see such discussion because it underscores that there is more than one viable build.

@blade_mercurial.

Yeah, it's hard to get a handle on these lists because, well, it's more or less list of the less optimal ships in the scum fleet. I tried the quad M3A and I think it isn't going to be rocking anyone's world, perhaps with some careful play it may work, but I'm not sure the quad M3A is that viable to begin with. All of these lists are a lot harder to play for sure. I've definitely been thinking about mindlink on Talonbane as an interesting alternative to PTL. But I think mindlink can really be used to farm a lot more tokens.

Here's one I was thinking about:

Manaroo (mindlink, chips, recspec, plasma torps/x-munitions, R4 agro)

IG88C (mindlink, autothrusters, FCS, tractor beam)

Kaa'to (Mindlink, cluster missiles, chips)

So manaroo goes first, double focus. Other two get a mindlink focus. Kaa'to moves, TL. IG88 moves, boost/evade. Manaroo can transfer tokens to IG88 or Kaa'to, Manaroo gets a token. Kaa'to steals the focus from either IG-88 or Manaroo and they gain another focus.

Net result, seven tokens between the three ships. They have a focus on manaroo, an evade and 2 focus on IG, a TL and 2 focuses on Kaa'to. Depending on requirements, you can shift the evade to Kaa'to or two focuses on manaroo, or TL with manaroo and gain back the focus if firing torps. Try and keep their fire on IG-88, because he can take a hell of a beating with two focus and an evade.

I've also seen a list used against me that actually used the stress part of mindlink to good effect - he had mindlink on a HWK with Zuckuss. 4-LOM also had mindlink so zuckuss would make you re-roll a dice, give a stress to the HWK, pass a stress to 4-LOM and then 4-LOM would then pass the stress onto an enemy ship at range 1.

@ParaGoomba Slayer

Yes, it does allow you to give a stressed ship a focus. The downside is the weaponised stress is also passed. It's going to be situational whether that's a net gain or not, if that second ship was about to sloop, that could be very bad. Whereas with predator, hey, you get those re-rolls stressed or not, rain or shine.

@Rhoaran.

Sounds like as good a reason for some vassalage as any other

The return really is not huge. The max output, in a two ship list, is one extra focus token per turn. I am not sure that it is worth what can be severe restrictions on movement and the punishment that Rebel Captive or debris tokens would cause.

Crackshot is probably a much better investment.

The return really is not huge. The max output, in a two ship list, is one extra focus token per turn. I am not sure that it is worth what can be severe restrictions on movement and the punishment that Rebel Captive or debris tokens would cause.

Crackshot is probably a much better investment.

Movement restrictions, not that severe. I've played it a few times now, further testing will happen tomorrow.

Why would Rebel Captive punish it? If anything Mindlink is some nice anti-Rebel Captive because when stress starts to get stacked all I need is /one/ green manuever to hand the stress stacked on a focus token.

Debris, perhaps. Then again, I have FCS and Cannon Gunner so I'm pretty stress resilient. Again, I can sloop a Brobot through Debris for 2 stress tokens (and probably a third when it has to fly back through the debris cloud) and with /one/ green manuever from the other hand it a focus token. It's now turned around, has a focus token, and FCS Cannon Gunner. And next turn? Hand it a focus token again.

Can't do that with PtL Advanced Sensors. Once that gets a stress it's tied to green manuevers for actions, and when it gets more than one stress it's ****** until they all clear. Not with Mindlink.

Mindlink, at least on Brobots, is an anti-stress card. I can be less restricted by using IG-B and D. When I focus with one Brobot to hand the other a focus token, I'm not making use of C's ability. Perhaps even A.

Crackshot is nice but I'd rather be able to sloop a Brobot and have it fire off a focused and FCS gunner HLC perpetually. Crackshot doesn't help you against stuff like Ghosts and Decimators, would rather have the perpetual freebie focus effect going all game long than one extra damage. At a certain point those extra focuses are going to end up converting more eyeballs to hits/evades than Crackshot would take away. Crackshot would help against Palp Aces, but that's what Feedback Array is for and with HLC FCS Mindlink Gunner I'm already pretty good at cracking aces.

The max output, in a two ship list, is one extra focus token per turn.

For two points. I used it in a Bossk and Dengar list, it did quite well.

I really think you guys are getting hung up on the fairly narrow downside to mindlink. I've literally been playing nothing but since Wave 8 came out, including a SC, and in many different combinations. It is a very powerful upgrade, especially because Scum have so many ways of playing around with focus. More than Rebels do, really. I routinely can get 5 focus tokens across a three ship list. I can easily get three focus tokens on Guri with it, which is something even Soontir can't do. Even better, there's no range restriction on it. If it didn't have the stress downside it would be broken at three points a pop.

Now Brobots don't have a lot of the things that make mindlink good that other Scum ships do. I'll be trying it out this Sunday personally.

@blade_mercurial.

Yeah, it's hard to get a handle on these lists because, well, it's more or less list of the less optimal ships in the scum fleet. I tried the quad M3A and I think it isn't going to be rocking anyone's world, perhaps with some careful play it may work, but I'm not sure the quad M3A is that viable to begin with. All of these lists are a lot harder to play for sure. I've definitely been thinking about mindlink on Talonbane as an interesting alternative to PTL. But I think mindlink can really be used to farm a lot more tokens.

Off-topic, but to do Mindlink Talonbane, I would go with:

Guri w/ mindlink, virago, sensor jammer & thrusters = 38

Talonbane w/ mindlink & engine = 33

Manaroo w/ mindlink & intel agent = 29

100

Guri is your turret/u-boat hunter. Talonbane erases a high PS ace provided Manaroo gets the block (not that hard, honestly). IG88s is probably the worst matchup, since talonbane will die quickly and Guri's PS is not the best for dealing with them...

Why would Rebel Captive punish it? If anything Mindlink is some nice anti-Rebel Captive because when stress starts to get stacked all I need is /one/ green manuever to hand the stress stacked on a focus token.

Because Rebel Captive means that both of your ships start the round with a stress token every turn that follows a turn where Rebel Captive was shot at. Meaning no red moves and one of your ships being required to do a green and focus as its action every turn.

Why would Rebel Captive punish it? If anything Mindlink is some nice anti-Rebel Captive because when stress starts to get stacked all I need is /one/ green manuever to hand the stress stacked on a focus token.

Because Rebel Captive means that both of your ships start the round with a stress token every turn that follows a turn where Rebel Captive was shot at. Meaning no red moves and one of your ships being required to do a green and focus as its action every turn.

Yes, one of them. The other one is free to do whatever. The one that didn't do a green still has a focus token and and FCS lock, and it got to do something fancy like a hard 1 instead of a green.

Or just both do white maneuvers, I still have FCS.

Again, this isn't really any worse than having to rely on PtL for action economy.

So I flew this some more today. Did well against 2 U-Boats and a Bumpmaster, I began the game with a fortress for 2-3 turns, then when the U-Boats were about to close to range one I popped Inertial Dampeners and was able to stay back. Eventually won. Against full one triple U-Boat might have been a bit different.

Lost to a Biggs and lothal rebel and Vrill squad. Could have flown a little better, nothing in this list really hard countered mine.

Then I faced the Palp Aces 2.0 squad with Palpmobile, Adaptability, V1 title, Autothrusters, and Prockets with Wampa and Juke Comm Relay Omega Leader. Started with another fortress until he was committed, and pretty much stayed put. Blew away Wampa, then blew away the Inquisitor. Got to use Tractor Beam to great effect in this game, my opponent's Omega Leader had Brobot #1 target locked, but brobot #2 was out of range. So I double tapped tractor beam at him and the second shot hit, so I pulled him into range of Brobot #2 which OL didn't have target locked and killed it, haha.

I did make some of those boneheaded mistakes in my games. No major ones like setting red manuevers with both, but stuff like doing a green with one first and then stressing both of them, or going for a white manuever that I knew probably was going to get blocked instead of a green one that was going to get blocked anyways but clear stress. Also some general piloting errors. Easily avoided mistakes though.

I settled on IG-D. Really helped me against U-Boats, was a little harder to block.