They're the same character. The point isn't that he's called Hutch. The point is that Hutch and Dutch are the same person, and therefore Hutch doesn't warrant a pilot card.

I think that giving them access to Elite abilities (possibly via a title rather than a modification) would be a quick way to open up a great many options.

New pilots might be nice - but we don't necessarily have to stick to the movie. We have one movie pilot (Vander) and one EU pilot (Salm) - maybe if they get another two pilots, it can continue as 1 movie 1 EU?

(Or, if we want to reuse existing characters, taking a leaf out of Imperial Veterans's book - a Y-Wing version of Keyan Farlander could be created. )

You going to keep telling me (and others) we're wrong when starwars.com itself says otherwise?

Yes, when there is a coflict between the film and some secondary source describing something from the film, I think it should be obvious what should take priority. I think Starwars.com describes canon, while the stories define it.

It wouldn't be the first time a movie name got retconned.

"General Taggi" (ANH credits) is now, canonically, General Tagge.

I can see why authors would go back to the name in the script and how the name of Dutch was just copied by everyone. But if we define canon as a set of stories (with some chronological order) then we can only assume the character in the film is called Hutch. I don't see why not.

I can see why authors would go back to the name in the script and how the name of Dutch was just copied by everyone. But if we define canon as a set of stories (with some chronological order) then we can only assume the character in the film is called Hutch. I don't see why not.

Like I said:

And since all those newcanon reference works use Dutch - we've got an "official" answer, if "official" matters to us.

This is identifiably false, because the movie - which defines canon - calls him Hutch, assuming we're talking about the same character here.

Sources that describe canon are not the ding an sich. For example, if a PEZ dispenser is issued of Rey, that does not mean that canonically, she can shoot candy from her throat, even if it is clearly labelled 'Rey'. And the Millennium Falcon is not covered in studs, even if Lego has produced a model. These are not retcons, because they are just depictions of the characters, they do not form the story. In the same vein, if there is a conflict between the actual canon stories and the sources that describe them, the former is right and the latter is wrong, or simply one point of view. There is really no way to check if Pops mispronounced the name, but it is unlikely because such a mistake is not significant to the story.

So maybe there is some novel or comic that talks about Dutch Vander dying at the battle of Yavin. To settle the matter, it would have to be clear that he was in that attack run. Maybe it is telling that nobody has produced such a piece of evidence. I wouldn't know about it - the number of 'new canon' books etc. I've read is small.

TL;DR

Suggestion for the HWK:

I don't know if this was suggested elsewhere - but this could happen in a possible E-Wing / HWK Rebel Veterans Pack:

Weapons Refit

(turret slot, HWK only)

"Your primary weapon value is increased by 1"

- 2 points

You could turn it into a heavier Z with a crappier dial.

But more important: the support pilots would get a lot cheaper, since you don't need to equip a turret.

Would this be a solution for the HWK?

And since all those newcanon reference works use Dutch - we've got an "official" answer, if "official" matters to us.

This is identifiably false, because the movie - which defines canon - calls him Hutch, assuming we're talking about the same character here.

Sources that describe canon are not the ding an sich. For example, if a PEZ dispenser is issued of Rey, that does not mean that canonically, she can shoot candy from her throat, even if it is clearly labelled 'Rey'. And the Millennium Falcon is not covered in studs, even if Lego has produced a model. These are not retcons, because they are just depictions of the characters, they do not form the story. In the same vein, if there is a conflict between the actual canon stories and the sources that describe them, the former is right and the latter is wrong, or simply one point of view. There is really no way to check if Pops mispronounced the name, but it is unlikely because such a mistake is not significant to the story.

So maybe there is some novel or comic that talks about Dutch Vander dying at the battle of Yavin. To settle the matter, it would have to be clear that he was in that attack run. Maybe it is telling that nobody has produced such a piece of evidence. I wouldn't know about it - the number of 'new canon' books etc. I've read is small.

Starwars.com calls him Dutch Vander. The point isn't whether or not he is Dutch or Hutch, the point is that they are in fact, the same person, therefore a pilot card for him isn't warranted.

TL;DR

Suggestion for the HWK:

I don't know if this was suggested elsewhere - but this could happen in a possible E-Wing / HWK Rebel Veterans Pack:

Weapons Refit

(turret slot, HWK only)

"Your primary weapon value is increased by 1"

- 2 points

You could turn it into a heavier Z with a crappier dial.

But more important: the support pilots would get a lot cheaper, since you don't need to equip a turret.

Would this be a solution for the HWK?

ner, dial still too crappy for arc (no k-turn) and 2-dice won't accomplish much of anything

that said, the HWK isn't even in a terrible place right now. Use of turrets, especially TLT on rebel hwks, + powerful support abilities make them viable. Sure, they're not AAA palp ace material, but they more than have their uses

This is identifiably false, because the movie - which defines canon - calls him Hutch, assuming we're talking about the same character here.

Pops calls him Hutch. Not quite the same thing. Characters can mispronounce.

This is identifiably false, because the movie - which defines canon - calls him Hutch, assuming we're talking about the same character here.

Pops calls him Hutch. Not quite the same thing. Characters can mispronounce.

One could also argue ad infitum that the Death Star is mostly made out of green cheese, but that doesn't make it true. As I said; there is no real reason in the story or even the scene why Pops would pronounce the name wrong, so it stands to reason he didn't.

Starwars.com calls him Dutch Vander. The point isn't whether or not he is Dutch or Hutch, the point is that they are in fact, the same person, therefore a pilot card for him isn't warranted.

In that case, Pops did not mispronounce the name, Dutch is just the alternative (mistaken) name for the character. Fair enough, but there is no necessity to consider them the same, other than to prevent fan confusion.

Dutch is just the alternative (mistaken) name for the character.

I don't know why the people running the franchise decided to make "Hutch" the mistake - the point is, they did. That's the kind of thing they're able to do.

His actual name is Jon Vander, now. Not much point arguing over which of his nicknames is the "correct" one.

He wouldn't be the only X-wing movie character whose name comes from the EU. Look at Garven Dreis. The novelization has him as "Dave". Yet his EU name is the one the X-wing game uses.

I don't know why the people running the franchise decided to make "Hutch" the mistake

They didn't. This part of the movie wasn't edited. The Greedo and Han scene was edited, Anakin's force ghost was, but to my knowledge this part was not. Pops says Hutch (compare it with Piett's line "We don't need their scum," - it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that is what he says, for better or worse).

This part of the movie wasn't edited. The Greedo and Han scene was edited, Anakin's force ghost was, but to my knowledge this part was not. Pops says Hutch (compare it with Piett's line "We don't need their scum," - it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that is what he says, for better or worse).

That's not how the newcanon system works though.

This is getting way off topic lol regardless of which name is correct the character in question already has a pilot card in game. Anyway if there was a one point non unique mod that gave Ys an EPT slot what impact do you think that would have?

This is getting way off topic lol regardless of which name is correct the character in question already has a pilot card in game. Anyway if there was a one point non unique mod that gave Ys an EPT slot what impact do you think that would have?

I'd approve. Personally though I'd say X-wings are in even more need of it though, being more overcosted than Y-wings.

This is getting way off topic lol regardless of which name is correct the character in question already has a pilot card in game. Anyway if there was a one point non unique mod that gave Ys an EPT slot what impact do you think that would have?

I'd approve. Personally though I'd say X-wings are in even more need of it though, being more overcosted than Y-wings.

I considered that because there are a number of X pilots that are just a ept/Astromech combo away from greatness (Hobbie with TA and Say On Target comes to mind) but it would complete with IA which is an issue.

I considered that because there are a number of X pilots that are just a ept/Astromech combo away from greatness (Hobbie with TA and Say On Target comes to mind) but it would complete with IA which is an issue.

Making it a Title rather than a Modification would solve that issue (IA is a Modification).

I don't know why poeple are calling for a hawk fix. I don't see them mopping up interceptors and defenders. I see them as a support role. The fact that they can carry crew and have some pretty awesome turrests puts them right where they need to be.

This part of the movie wasn't edited. The Greedo and Han scene was edited, Anakin's force ghost was, but to my knowledge this part was not. Pops says Hutch (compare it with Piett's line "We don't need their scum," - it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that is what he says, for better or worse).

That's not how the newcanon system works though.

And non-story sources are implicitly not part of canon, although they can certainly describe canon. Otherwise, any pez dispenser and lego set would be canon in all its glory, which would be absurd.

I don't know why poeple are calling for a hawk fix. I don't see them mopping up interceptors and defenders. I see them as a support role. The fact that they can carry crew and have some pretty awesome turrests puts them right where they need to be.

I agree completely but to some people if a ship doesn't alter the meta by existing it isn't a good ship.

I considered that because there are a number of X pilots that are just a ept/Astromech combo away from greatness (Hobbie with TA and Say On Target comes to mind) but it would complete with IA which is an issue.

Making it a Title rather than a Modification would solve that issue (IA is a Modification).

Hrm...

So like:

Veteran if Yavin: Non T-70 X-Wing and Rebel Y-Wing only. If your upgrade bar does not already have the [ept] icon it gains it, if it already has the [ept] symbol instead increase your pilot skill by 1.

The restrictions are really cumbersome to word though...

Books like Ultimate Star Wars, Star Wars In 100 Scenes, etc are a bit different from Lego sets.

Books like Ultimate Star Wars, Star Wars In 100 Scenes, etc are a bit different from Lego sets.

They're certainly more accurate.

So like:

Veteran if Yavin: Non T-70 X-Wing and Rebel Y-Wing only. If your upgrade bar does not already have the [ept] icon it gains it, if it already has the [ept] symbol instead increase your pilot skill by 1.

The restrictions are really cumbersome to word though...

Does it need the restrictions?

1 point- Civil War Veteran: Xwing only, PS4+

Increase your PS by 1. If you do not aready have an EPT, gain one.

I dont think Red ace and Blue Ace would be broken by adding an EPT.