I am sure it has been answered before, I just can't find it. I need a quick run down of using the Force.

Say for example:

PC Force Rating 2

Force Powers:

- Influence Basic Power

- Magnetude (Influence)

So; say he want to say "These are not the droids you are looking for"; How do we proceed?

1 - Roll the Force pool (2 White Dice because his rating is 2) Say the result is 2 White, 1 Black

2 - Use a White force point to influence the stormtrooper to trust him (positive emotion)

3 - Use a regular Charm roll, with a Boost die (or reduce the difficulty from Hard to Average) because the Stormtrooper trust the PC?

Would that be a good interpretation of the use of the Force?

The basic Influence power only allows you to spend 1 Force point to inflict 1 Strain on a target you are Engaged with.

Magnitude increases the amount of targets, meaning you could hit 2 Engaged targets with 1 Strain each.

In order to Jedi Mind Trick, you need either of the Control upgrades (but more likely the 2nd). With the 10 xp Control, you roll Discipline vs Discipline to make them believe something untrue... or the 15 xp to make Force enhanced Charisma type rolls. The 10 xp version is more about emotions, which is where that initial blurb comes in talking about Light points invoking positive emotions, or Dark points invoking negative emotions. For a straight up "these aren't the droids you're looking for", you want the 15 xp version.

Thanks that answers my question.

The basic Influence power only allows you to spend 1 Force point to inflict 1 Strain on a target you are Engaged with.

Magnitude increases the amount of targets, meaning you could hit 2 Engaged targets with 1 Strain each.

In order to Jedi Mind Trick, you need either of the Control upgrades (but more likely the 2nd). With the 10 xp Control, you roll Discipline vs Discipline to make them believe something untrue... or the 15 xp to make Force enhanced Charisma type rolls. The 10 xp version is more about emotions, which is where that initial blurb comes in talking about Light points invoking positive emotions, or Dark points invoking negative emotions. For a straight up "these aren't the droids you're looking for", you want the 15 xp version.

Actually that's not correct. It states in the basic power the Special Rule for Influence. Depending on what type of force pip you get on your roll, you can influence different emotions. It clearly indicates confusion as one of the emotional states you can inflict on your target, if you roll either type of pips. I would rule the Jedi Mind Trick is a confusion state, thus you can do it with the base power.

Actually that's not correct. It states in the basic power the Special Rule for Influence. Depending on what type of force pip you get on your roll, you can influence different emotions. It clearly indicates confusion as one of the emotional states you can inflict on your target, if you roll either type of pips. I would rule the Jedi Mind Trick is a confusion state, thus you can do it with the base power.

Completely disagree. Your ruling would allow anyone who spent a mere 10XP for the base power to circumvent an entire encounter using a passive (i.e. no difficulty) die roll.

Actually that's not correct. It states in the basic power the Special Rule for Influence. Depending on what type of force pip you get on your roll, you can influence different emotions. It clearly indicates confusion as one of the emotional states you can inflict on your target, if you roll either type of pips. I would rule the Jedi Mind Trick is a confusion state, thus you can do it with the base power.

Completely disagree. Your ruling would allow anyone who spent a mere 10XP for the base power to circumvent an entire encounter using a passive (i.e. no difficulty) die roll.

*shrugs* Ok, then don't run it that way. And looking at the power again, I can see that rationale just fine. But my point is that you can use it, as just the base power, to effect a target's emotions. It flat out says it in the power description in the book. So you can have one person use the power to muddle their emotions, and a teammate can then make the social roll to trick them. I've had my players do this very thing and it worked fine.

*shrugs* Ok, then don't run it that way. And looking at the power again, I can see that rationale just fine. But my point is that you can use it, as just the base power, to effect a target's emotions. It flat out says it in the power description in the book. So you can have one person use the power to muddle their emotions, and a teammate can then make the social roll to trick them. I've had my players do this very thing and it worked fine.

I'm afraid the base power does not do that. The text on p. 294 of F&D (appears to be unaltered from EotE, p. 281) indicates: "The most basic form of Influence does not allow the Force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others." (emphasis mine)

The ability to effect emotions is stated in the Control Upgrade (F&D, p. 295): "To gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged..." In EotE, the text is: "The Force user gains the ability..." (emphasis mine)

So the text makes it pretty clear that your player would have needed to use the Tier 1 Control Upgrade to confuse the target in order for the second player's social roll to benefit.

And if they want to do the trademark Jedi Mind Trick themselves, they'll need that Tier 2 Control Upgrade. (This was bkoran's explanation.)

The basic Influence power only allows you to spend 1 Force point to inflict 1 Strain on a target you are Engaged with.

Magnitude increases the amount of targets, meaning you could hit 2 Engaged targets with 1 Strain each.

In order to Jedi Mind Trick, you need either of the Control upgrades (but more likely the 2nd). With the 10 xp Control, you roll Discipline vs Discipline to make them believe something untrue... or the 15 xp to make Force enhanced Charisma type rolls. The 10 xp version is more about emotions, which is where that initial blurb comes in talking about Light points invoking positive emotions, or Dark points invoking negative emotions. For a straight up "these aren't the droids you're looking for", you want the 15 xp version.

*shrugs* Ok, then don't run it that way. And looking at the power again, I can see that rationale just fine. But my point is that you can use it, as just the base power, to effect a target's emotions. It flat out says it in the power description in the book. So you can have one person use the power to muddle their emotions, and a teammate can then make the social roll to trick them. I've had my players do this very thing and it worked fine.

I'm afraid the base power does not do that. The text on p. 294 of F&D (appears to be unaltered from EotE, p. 281) indicates: "The most basic form of Influence does not allow the Force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others." (emphasis mine)

The ability to effect emotions is stated in the Control Upgrade (F&D, p. 295): "To gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged..." In EotE, the text is: "The Force user gains the ability..." (emphasis mine)

So the text makes it pretty clear that your player would have needed to use the Tier 1 Control Upgrade to confuse the target in order for the second player's social roll to benefit.

And if they want to do the trademark Jedi Mind Trick themselves, they'll need that Tier 2 Control Upgrade. (This was bkoran's explanation.)

So the "Special Rule" section that is clearly written in the Basic Power description (and not in the Control upgrade description), is referring to something outside the basic power's use? Well that's just a messy way to do a power layout. Because in the book I looked in last night, the description of the Special Rule, was very clearly found in the Basic Power box, not down in the Control box. Which to me, would imply it's something you can do with the basic power.

You have to read the power descriptions, just as you have to read the Talent descriptions and not just the tree descriptions. You don't get the full scope of them unless you do, and even then there is 'confusion' at times.

The basic power lets you inflict Strain and it can be activated multiple times.

That's interesting! I didn't know that I would be opening a pandora's box!

Here is now my take on those Influence:

1 - Basic power : Can provide strain by affecting the target's emotion

2 - Control (10xp) make the tarket trusting towards the PC, then the PC can use charm, coerce or deception check with a boost die ("hey my friend, I'm telling you this is not the droid you are looking for" - Adding a boost, to the roll to indicate that the target trust the PC)

3 - Control (15xp) Allow the PC to add successes (or advantages) to a Charm/Coerce/Deception check ("Those are not the droids you are looking for")

We've ran a Jedi game session (PCs were playing Jedi of an old time, this was meant as a single game). This raised a lot more questions:

Influence:

- How do we influence Force sensitive? Can we? (a NPC?, a PC?)

Move:

- Throwing a Lightsaber to an opponent (as an attack) should it requires Control 10xp or 15xp)? I can see a case for both situations, on the second one, this would be a regular attack, but at a distance? I'm tempted to choose that one.

- Immobilizing an opponent; This would requires Move with at least a Strength upgrade (for a Silouette size 1); However, I feel this would be powerfull at this point, does it makes sense? How about throwing the opponent to the wall? What if the target is a Force Sensitive? Should this affect anything?

- Move used as a Force Jump power, affecting only the PC, requiring a Discipline check?

*points towards something distracting behind you*

That's interesting! I didn't know that I would be opening a pandora's box!

Here is now my take on those Influence:

1 - Basic power : Can provide strain by affecting the target's emotion

2 - Control (10xp) make the tarket trusting towards the PC, then the PC can use charm, coerce or deception check with a boost die ("hey my friend, I'm telling you this is not the droid you are looking for" - Adding a boost, to the roll to indicate that the target trust the PC)

3 - Control (15xp) Allow the PC to add successes (or advantages) to a Charm/Coerce/Deception check ("Those are not the droids you are looking for")

We've ran a Jedi game session (PCs were playing Jedi of an old time, this was meant as a single game). This raised a lot more questions:

Influence:

- How do we influence Force sensitive? Can we? (a NPC?, a PC?)

Move:

- Throwing a Lightsaber to an opponent (as an attack) should it requires Control 10xp or 15xp)? I can see a case for both situations, on the second one, this would be a regular attack, but at a distance? I'm tempted to choose that one.

- Immobilizing an opponent; This would requires Move with at least a Strength upgrade (for a Silouette size 1); However, I feel this would be powerfull at this point, does it makes sense? How about throwing the opponent to the wall? What if the target is a Force Sensitive? Should this affect anything?

- Move used as a Force Jump power, affecting only the PC, requiring a Discipline check?

Throwing a Lightsaber is a specific Talent, not a Force power.

Immobilizing is covered by Bind.

Force leap is part of Enhance, not Move.

I was under the impression that the classic "Jedi Mind Trick" was the second-tier, 10 xp Control upgrade, while the third-tier, 15 xp control upgrade is Palapatine-esque subtle manipulation, using the Force to make yourself more convincing without outright attacking someone's mind, allowing you to circumvent the "only affects the weak-minded" limitation.

That limitation, in fact, seems to be what the opposed Discipline roll in the 10 xp upgrade is meant to suggest. And it says if you succeed you can make then believe something untrue. "These aren't the droids you're looking for," was certainly untrue, as was, "Credits will do fine," and a fairly easy case can be made for, "You will take me to Jabba now." To me, it's fairly clear that the trick where you tell people something and they repeat it back to you in a monotone voice and do what you say is clearly meant to be that first upgrade.

force the target to adopt an emotional state such as fear, friendliness, or hatred, or to believe something untrue ("these are not the droids you are looking for”).

So it is... I keep forgetting they tacked on that "believe something" part when the majority of it is written for emotional influence.

So yeah, the 10 xp is the traditional hand wave. Still requires a bit more investment than the basic 5 xp though. =)

Well, 10 xp without a mentor, but yes .

Trust is an emotional state. But Trust alone isn't enough to overcome "This friend of mine has two droids matching the description of droids missing from the ship's manifest."

But note also, Ben has the whole bloody tree, and uses a bunch of it. He's mind-tricking the sergeant and at least three more stormtroopers. 4 targets.

And then he's adding the 15 point control upgrade...

Cost 1 base.

+3 targets means either 2 ranks of magnitude and 2 FP, or 3 ranks and 1 point. Given Ben's age, and experience, and prior uses, it's probably 3 ranks.

And then 1 for the control upgrade to convince them rather than just make them trust him.

If he'd failed, the result would have been, "We're still going to check them, You've nothing to worry about."

And they tie sufficiently close that you may as well roll the deception check with the force dice. First 2 go to making them trust, and then the rest to additional successes...

Except you're missing the point I was making: the 10 xp, second-tier Control upgrade specifically says you can use it to induce an emotional state OR make the target believe something untrue. Old Ben looks the stormtrooper Sergeant in the eye, waves his hand and says, "These aren't the droids you're looking for." And the Sergeant believes it with absolutely no reason to.

The description given in that first Control upgrade perfectly matches with what we know of the Jedi Mind Trick: it makes someone who fails a Discipline check (a.k.a. someone who is "weak-minded") believe anything you tell them regardless of how ridiculous it is for an extended period of time. Why would you think the additional Control upgrade would be necessary?

Except you're missing the point I was making: the 10 xp, second-tier Control upgrade specifically says you can use it to induce an emotional state OR make the target believe something untrue. Old Ben looks the stormtrooper Sergeant in the eye, waves his hand and says, "These aren't the droids you're looking for." And the Sergeant believes it with absolutely no reason to.

The description given in that first Control upgrade perfectly matches with what we know of the Jedi Mind Trick: it makes someone who fails a Discipline check (a.k.a. someone who is "weak-minded") believe anything you tell them regardless of how ridiculous it is for an extended period of time. Why would you think the additional Control upgrade would be necessary?

Just because it's a command doesn't mean that it's not using the same skill. As I mentioned before, I think any time a Force-user says something and expects the person listening to mindlessly repeat it and do what they said unthinkingly, they're using the Jedi Mind Trick, which is that first upgrade.

The second upgrade is supposed to be Chancellor Palpatine telling a Senate full of politicians, "Hey, I'mma take all the power now, kthxby." And they all stand and applaud. They are legitimately convinced that this was the right way to go, and two hours passing is not going to change that.

The first Control upgrade is the Mind Trick, making weak-minded people act like puppets for a short time. Once it wears off, the person no longer feels or believes what you told turn to, and they might even realize that you controlled their mind directly. The second is a subtle, insidious weaving of the Force into your words and actions to make you more legitimately convincing, and anyone convinced is going to believe you indefinitely, until someone else comes along and convinces them otherwise.

I see no use of the second in the scene worth either Old Ben and the Stormtrooper or Luke and Jabba.