I will also point this out (Emphasis Mine):

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

Note: It does not say Upgrade Card . Simply, Card Effect .

Objectives are Cards

Upgrades are Cards

Ergo, an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute.

An Objective Card that says Cannot Is Absolute.

In no way are Objective cards superseding Upgrade cards in the Cannot department.

Because they are Cards.

And Any Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

The "Rules of the Game" are superseded by Upgrade Cards .

Your argument is sound, but you are not actually commenting on my argument.

Advanced gunnery is also a card. It is however a card that defines special rules for the match being set up.

As such, the text in Advanced Gunnery supersede any text on upgrade cards.

Advanced Gunnery clearly state

Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice as long as he targets different sections

Player 2 can shoot the same ship twice, from the same section and targeting the same section with both attacks

FAQ reins in this powerfull ability given to player 2 by introducing a qualifier. "Player 2 only gets that ability as long as his objective ship does not have "gunnery team" fitted". Player 1 is unaffected.

It makes for an interesting strategy game when prepping for the match.

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

I will also point this out (Emphasis Mine):

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

Note: It does not say Upgrade Card. Simply, Card Effect .

Objectives are Cards

Upgrades are Cards

Ergo, an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute.

An Objective Card that says Cannot Is Absolute.

In no way are Objective cards superseding Upgrade cards in the Cannot department.

Because they are Cards.

And Any Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

The "Rules of the Game" are superseded by Upgrade Cards .

Your argument is sound, but you are not actually commenting on my argument.

Advanced gunnery is also a card. It is however a card that defines special rules for the match being set up.

As such, the text in Advanced Gunnery supersede any text on upgrade cards.

Advanced Gunnery clearly state

Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice as long as he targets different sections

Player 2 can shoot the same ship twice, from the same section and targeting the same section with both attacks

FAQ reins in this powerfull ability given to player 2 by introducing a qualifier. "Player 2 only gets that ability as long as his objective ship does not have "gunnery team" fitted". Player 1 is unaffected.

It makes for an interesting strategy game when prepping for the match.

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

This is neither obvious or correct.

Cannot is king, trumping any text on all game compared.

I will also point this out (Emphasis Mine):

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

Note: It does not say Upgrade Card. Simply, Card Effect .

Objectives are Cards

Upgrades are Cards

Ergo, an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute.

An Objective Card that says Cannot Is Absolute.

In no way are Objective cards superseding Upgrade cards in the Cannot department.

Because they are Cards.

And Any Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

The "Rules of the Game" are superseded by Upgrade Cards .

Your argument is sound, but you are not actually commenting on my argument.

Advanced gunnery is also a card. It is however a card that defines special rules for the match being set up.

As such, the text in Advanced Gunnery supersede any text on upgrade cards.

Advanced Gunnery clearly state

Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice as long as he targets different sections

Player 2 can shoot the same ship twice, from the same section and targeting the same section with both attacks

FAQ reins in this powerfull ability given to player 2 by introducing a qualifier. "Player 2 only gets that ability as long as his objective ship does not have "gunnery team" fitted". Player 1 is unaffected.

It makes for an interesting strategy game when prepping for the match.

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

This is neither obvious or correct.

Cannot is king, trumping any text on all game compared.

What you are saying doesn't contradict what I wrote.

This seems like a case of stimulus overselectivity.

"Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table."

^This - is just not true, especially when the golden rule of "cannot" is invoked.

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

If it is Obvious ... Then I must be missing it...

Please point out, in the Rules, with associated Rules Text, where this is the case..?

Baudolino can you at least accept the two bolded sections below cannot exist simultaneously?

Gunnery Team:
You can attack from the same hull zone more than once per activation. That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation.

Advanced Gunnery, Player One:
The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. It cannot target the same hull zone or squadron more than once each round with that hull zone.

Heres an analogy that might help.

The road rules say you cannot go over the speed limit. A faq on the road rules say cars cannot go over the speed limit. This does not mean trucks can go over limit because only cars are made the example.

Relating back to Advanced Gunnery:
Road Rules = Golden Rules
Cars = Second player
Trucks = First player

Yeah but what about motorbikes? They can go faster right?

African or European swallows?

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

No they act at the same time, consider two dice add effects, Most Wanted and Extra Armaments. Are you now suggesting that Most Wanted supersedes my Extra Armaments and I wouldn't add two dice?

There is absolutely nothing in the rule about Game Mode cards (My Rules Reference and Learn to Play doesn't find the term "game mode" so I am fairly confident of this), you are making this up! Now, let's be very clear here, this is the rule forum and you shouldn't pollute a response to a query with stuff that is made up. All you are going to do is upset people who are trying to explain the rules and will no doubt have rule pages and quotes to back up their position.

i think we are getting off track here. the original post by Green Knight was very very simple.

WHY DOES PLAYER 1 IN THE NEW ADVANCED GUNNERY RULING NOT GET NERF'ED JUST AS PLAYER 2 DOES, WHEN THEY "BOTH" ARE ABLE TO SHOOT THE SAME SHIP TWICE?

we think FFG forgot that the Advance Gunnery card states that Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice, so why are they still allowing that to occur based on the wording of the new card.

ORIGINAL CARD:

Special Rule: The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. It cannot target the same hull zone or squadron more than once each round with that hull zone.

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone, and it may do so against the same target.

New Ruling states:

I have emailed FFG directly waiting on a response today. to be absolutely fare player 1 needs the same nerf. I know personally my local gaming group for months when Armada first came out didn't even read the Adv Gunnery card properly and we were just giving Player 1 a "normal" gunnery team upgrade. Maybe the folks at FFG that wrote the FAQ didn't realize what they were reading and writing as well ..

i think we are getting off track here. the original post by Green Knight was very very simple.

WHY DOES PLAYER 1 IN THE NEW ADVANCED GUNNERY RULING NOT GET NERF'ED JUST AS PLAYER 2 DOES, WHEN THEY "BOTH" ARE ABLE TO SHOOT THE SAME SHIP TWICE?

we think FFG forgot that the Advance Gunnery card states that Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice, so why are they still allowing that to occur based on the wording of the new card.

ORIGINAL CARD:

Special Rule: The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. It cannot target the same hull zone or squadron more than once each round with that hull zone.

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone, and it may do so against the same target.

New Ruling states:

Advanced Gunnery

If the second player’s objective ship

is equipped with Gunnery Team or

Slaved Turrets, that ship cannot target

the same ship or squadron more than

once during its activation.

I have emailed FFG directly waiting on a response today. to be absolutely fare player 1 needs the same nerf. I know personally my local gaming group for months when Armada first came out didn't even read the Adv Gunnery card properly and we were just giving Player 1 a "normal" gunnery team upgrade. Maybe the folks at FFG that wrote the FAQ didn't realize what they were reading and writing as well ..

I fully admit, rather than just looking at the FFG Ruling, I took my time to look at the reasons why - rather than keeping it simply at "FFG Said so"

Just because it doesn't mention the 1st Player, I don't feel that deliberately excludes first play from the ruling... Simply that it doesn't mention it as it wasn't part of the asked question

You have an upgrade card called Gunnery Teams that says you cannot attack the same ship twice.

The rules say 'cannot' is absolute.

I don't see why anything else matters.

You have an upgrade card called Gunnery Teams that says you cannot attack the same ship twice.

The rules say 'cannot' is absolute.

I don't see why anything else matters.

At the moment. its because "FFG said so..."

Or, more correctly:

"Because FFG has Failed to Say So..."

thanks Irokenics and Drasnighta, i agree , the real issue is too many people taking to heart what is written in the FAQ hence we need FFG to intervene here. everyone is using it as a way to bend the rules so that player 1 is not affected. but yes Adv gunnery the "card" would override player 1 and 2

thanks Irokenics and Drasnighta, i agree , the real issue is too many people taking to heart what is written in the FAQ hence we need FFG to intervene here. everyone is using it as a way to bend the rules so that player 1 is not affected. but yes Adv gunnery the "card" would override player 1 and 2

^This is indeed my original stance.

I brought the question up because sooner or later someone WILL point to the FAQ and use that as an argument that 1st player + GT can shoot the same ship twice. They would be wrong - but it will happen. That's why I think the FAQ entry is poorly worded - maybe no one asked about 1st player, but still, these things give room of disagreement (just look at this thread).

thanks Irokenics and Drasnighta, i agree , the real issue is too many people taking to heart what is written in the FAQ hence we need FFG to intervene here. everyone is using it as a way to bend the rules so that player 1 is not affected. but yes Adv gunnery the "card" would override player 1 and 2

^This is indeed my original stance.

I brought the question up because sooner or later someone WILL point to the FAQ and use that as an argument that 1st player + GT can shoot the same ship twice. They would be wrong - but it will happen. That's why I think the FAQ entry is poorly worded - maybe no one asked about 1st player, but still, these things give room of disagreement (just look at this thread).

This is why it is important to discuss the why behind them... Unfortunately, the direct-line we have with FFG in the rules matter ends up being somewhat of a nebulous black hole for questions sometimes... (I'm still waiting on a November Hyperspace Assault question at the moment)...

But with the Why established, we can start a general education of the community to look for answers before they are submitted to FAQs... FAQs should come from questions that are otherwise unanswerable with the Rules...

This one, I certainly feel, is answerable with Rules.

absence of a rule isn't a rule in itself.

I was surprised they even had to FAQ it. Too many people looking for tweaks to exploit.

People need to keep in mind that the ship upgrade cards and the game mode cards exist on different levels and work on different things. Ship upgrade cards affect the ships abilities. Game mode cards affect the rules governing how the match will run. Obviously the game mode cards supersede any ship, upgrade or modification card present on the table.

No they act at the same time, consider two dice add effects, Most Wanted and Extra Armaments. Are you now suggesting that Most Wanted supersedes my Extra Armaments and I wouldn't add two dice?

There is absolutely nothing in the rule about Game Mode cards (My Rules Reference and Learn to Play doesn't find the term "game mode" so I am fairly confident of this), you are making this up! Now, let's be very clear here, this is the rule forum and you shouldn't pollute a response to a query with stuff that is made up. All you are going to do is upset people who are trying to explain the rules and will no doubt have rule pages and quotes to back up their position.

Now you`re just being obtuse..

The Rulebook describes the cards in question as "objective" cards. They introduce objectives on the map that can be occupied or claimed or they turn ships into objectives themselves. The objectives are introduced to produce a specific kind of gameplay. The basic categories of gameplay FFG wants to promote are "Assault", "Defense" and "Navigation". Sub-categories provide flavour within each basic category. The natural naming of the superordinate category will in this regard be "Game mode" rather than "objective" as the specific objectives are tools intended to generate the gameplay FFG wants to motivate. I will admit however, that the term "objective" flows more easily.

As far as enforcing those game modes/objectives, FFG employs special rules that overarches and sets the upcoming match in a specific frame and narrative. The rulebook states regarding "objectives": " They also may include special rules that must be used when playing with that objective (bolding by me)." Cannot on the card "gunnery team" might define the specific limitations of that partiular ship upgrade, but FFG are free to define "special rules" that create specific interpretations and/or exceptions that are limited to a particular match- for the purposes needed to enforcce the objective/game mode "gameplay" they wish to motivate. In those circumstances they may most certainly supersede how upgrades, ships and abilities are generally interpreted when playing WITHOUT said objective/game mode cards.

To say that i`m making this up is both approaching the issue debilitatingly littoral AND quite offensive.

But you specifically ignore the fact that, in the exact same document , indeed, on the first page of said document , there is this:

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

So, what do we take from that?

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

But you specifically ignore the fact that, in the exact same document , indeed, on the first page of said document , there is this:

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

So, what do we take from that?

I`m not saying you`re wrong. You might very well be correct.

In so far as matches NOT featuring objective/game mode cards- you`re definitely correct.

In my defence though..

Your perspective is bottom-up, whereas mine is top-down.

If you`re correct, then the rules are broken or at the very least wrong.

If I`m correct in my appreciation of what appears to be a coherent system, then FFG are implementing a strategic layer on top of the matches. A layer that incorporates the bidding for initiative and a number of other considerations that greatly affect the possibilities inherent every match by balancing and countering emerging metas without the need for new units or new upgrades. It`s a mini-strategy game that sets the frame for every match in such a way as to preclude single focus builds that can only be beaten by specific counter builds. Even though it might still be in it`s early stages.

If you`re correct, then the game is broken and what i`m talking about is pure accidental.

If I`m correct, then FFG have learned quite a bit from X-Wing and has made a strong move in terms of increasing longevity through increasing unpredictability and promoting flexible decks.

I don`t know whether you or I are correct in our interpretations.

Though I do know that what I`ve written and stated is the most coherent understanding so far- even if I`m wrong and FFG have not been thinking along those lines at all

Well, this was passed on to me via Facebook from someone else. (My name is not Michael, just FYI )

hey dras saw the forum post and i got this yesterday and didnt pass it on was too busy.

Deleted because I was going no where fast.

If you`re correct, then the rules are broken or at the very least wrong.

Now you are just making that up.