The 1st player should be equally affected by the 'cannot' on the gunnery teams, meaning it should not be able to target the same ship twice, despite the objective.

But has this been confirmed? The FAQ only addresses the 2nd player.

I don't think it has been explicitly confirmed, but I agree with you that there seems to be no reason that it shouldn't apply equally to first player.

Rules Reference Guide, page one, "The Golden Rule" Line 3

"If a card effect uses the word 'cannot,' that effect is absolute"

Rules Reference Guide, page one, "The Golden Rule" Line 3

"If a card effect uses the word 'cannot,' that effect is absolute"

Doesn't help really - that was the case before the latest FAQ, which unfortunately only specifies the 2nd player, so my bet is someone, somewhere will take that to mean only the 2nd player has been nerfed.

As far as I know all rules apply equally to player one, and player two.

I think the wording specified player two, as most people completely forget you can shoot the same ship twice as player one with this objective. The wording is about the, cannot shoot the same ship twice on the GT card, so that being said, if player one has a GT on his objective ship, then the cannot comes into play, you cannot use AG & GT on the same ship to fire a second time at a ship you just fired upon.

Which is what the errata/faq brought into prominence Gunnery Teams do not allow double shots onto one target, overriding Advanced Gunnery's shoot the same ship twice.

As far as I know all rules apply equally to player one, and player two.

I think the wording specified player two, as most people completely forget you can shoot the same ship twice as player one with this objective. The wording is about the, cannot shoot the same ship twice on the GT card, so that being said, if player one has a GT on his objective ship, then the cannot comes into play, you cannot use AG & GT on the same ship to fire a second time at a ship you just fired upon.

Which is what the errata/faq brought into prominence Gunnery Teams do not allow double shots onto one target, overriding Advanced Gunnery's shoot the same ship twice.

^This

I have this nagging suspicion that FFG forgot that 1st player can shoot at the same ship (albeit at 2 different zones) and therefore picked a rather clumsy working in the FAQ.

But I cannot be 100% sure, because sometimes FFG makes rulings that make less than 100% sense.

Heres an analogy that might help.

The road rules say you cannot go over the speed limit. A faq on the road rules say cars cannot go over the speed limit. This does not mean trucks can go over limit because only cars are made the example.

Relating back to Advanced Gunnery:

Road Rules = Golden Rules

Cars = Second player

Trucks = First player

I think FFG needs to clearly state that card, was their intention to give Player 1 gunnery team upgrade only or allow Player 1 to shoot the same ship twice but target different hull zones on that ship. i assume the latter, which if is the case i think Green Knight is right, someone didn't remember that Player 1 can shoot the same ship twice. BOTH should be nerfed.

To me it seems like:

Player one: Can shoot twice from same hull zone and can fire at the same ship twice as long as it targets different hull zones

Player two: Can shoot twice from the same hull zone and can target the same hull zone on the target ship with both attacks

Seems to me it`s one the cards that help balance the benefit of initiative.

To me it seems like:

Player one: Can shoot twice from same hull zone and can fire at the same ship twice as long as it targets different hull zones

Player two: Can shoot twice from the same hull zone and can target the same hull zone on the target ship with both attacks

Seems to me it`s one the cards that help balance the benefit of initiative.

Yes. But it was the FAQ entry re. Gunnery Teams that was the question.

To me it seems like:

Player one: Can shoot twice from same hull zone and can fire at the same ship twice as long as it targets different hull zones

Player two: Can shoot twice from the same hull zone and can target the same hull zone on the target ship with both attacks

Seems to me it`s one the cards that help balance the benefit of initiative.

Yes. But it was the FAQ entry re. Gunnery Teams that was the question.

Well

"Advanced Gunnery" is a ruleset that sets the frame within which the game unfolds.

Clearly that supersedes any upgrades a ship might carry.

Means bringing Gunnery Team to an "Advanced Gunnery" game is pointless, as the game mode rule set nullifies the ship upgrade

Don`t bring "Adavanced Gunnery" if you plan on going second and want a gunnery team as an upgarde..

This is actually the way I set up my deck

My deck has

Minefield, Advanced Gunnery and Hyperspace Assault since I intend to be "second player"

"Advanced Gunnery" is a ruleset that sets the frame within which the game unfolds.

Clearly that supersedes any upgrades a ship might carry.

Means bringing Gunnery Team to an "Advanced Gunnery" game is pointless, as the game mode rule set nullifies the ship upgrade

Don`t bring "Adavanced Gunnery" if you plan on going second and want a gunnery team as an upgarde..

However, it then breaks the "Golden Rule" as presented in the Rulebook, which is the fact that an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

Which is the other way of looking at it.

"Advanced Gunnery" is a ruleset that sets the frame within which the game unfolds.

Clearly that supersedes any upgrades a ship might carry.

Means bringing Gunnery Team to an "Advanced Gunnery" game is pointless, as the game mode rule set nullifies the ship upgrade

Don`t bring "Adavanced Gunnery" if you plan on going second and want a gunnery team as an upgarde..

However, it then breaks the "Golden Rule" as presented in the Rulebook, which is the fact that an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

Which is the other way of looking at it.

There is no conflict though.

"Cannot" refers to player 1, whereas the thing about Gunnery team refers to player 2

There is no conflict though.

"Cannot" refers to player 1, whereas the thing about Gunnery team refers to player 2

So Lets Break all the Cannot 's down, then, shall we:

Advanced Gunnery, Player One:

The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. It cannot target the same hull zone or squadron more than once each round with that hull zone.

Advanced Gunnery, Player Two:

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone, and it may do so against the same target.

Gunnery Team:

You can attack from the same hull zone more than once per activation. That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation.

So, let us throw the Rules all Together .

The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. That hull zone cannot target the same ship, Hull zone or Squadron more than once during that activation.

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone , and it may do so against the same target . That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation.

Even if you have a rule that says you can target the same Hull Zone, or even the same ship . Its overruled by Gunnery Team's cannot .

There is a Definite conflict in Both... its just a direct conflict in Player 2, where it says you Can, and says you can't do the same thing .

Player One's conflict is in the fact that when you mash the entire rule together, you get no benefit out of Advanced Gunnery. Only out of Gunnery Teams, as all of the cannots line up.

I'm all for it conflicting equally. In the end, it means that the cannot of the Gunnery Team overrides any positive benefit of Advanced Gunnery , as it means, overall for me, that I am encouraged to take something other than Gunnery Team on my ships if I want to have Advanced Gunnery, and having more choices be legitimate ones rather than "you'd be stupid not to take" ones....

I like Ruthless Strategists... I like Flight Controllers... I really really like being incentivised to take them instead

There is no conflict though.

"Cannot" refers to player 1, whereas the thing about Gunnery team refers to player 2

So Lets Break all the Cannot 's down, then, shall we:

Advanced Gunnery, Player One:

The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. It cannot target the same hull zone or squadron more than once each round with that hull zone.

Advanced Gunnery, Player Two:

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone, and it may do so against the same target.

Gunnery Team:

You can attack from the same hull zone more than once per activation. That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation.

So, let us throw the Rules all Together .

The first player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone. That hull zone cannot target the same ship, Hull zone or Squadron more than once during that activation.

The Second player's objective ship may perform each of its attacks from the same hull zone , and it may do so against the same target . That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation.

Even if you have a rule that says you can target the same Hull Zone, or even the same ship . Its overruled by Gunnery Team's cannot .

There is a Definite conflict in Both... its just a direct conflict in Player 2, where it says you Can, and says you can't do the same thing .

Player One's conflict is in the fact that when you mash the entire rule together, you get no benefit out of Advanced Gunnery. Only out of Gunnery Teams, as all of the cannots line up.

I'm all for it conflicting equally. In the end, it means that the cannot of the Gunnery Team overrides any positive benefit of Advanced Gunnery , as it means, overall for me, that I am encouraged to take something other than Gunnery Team on my ships if I want to have Advanced Gunnery, and having more choices be legitimate ones rather than "you'd be stupid not to take" ones....

I like Ruthless Strategists... I like Flight Controllers... I really really like being incentivised to take them instead

I don`t agree. The interpretation jumps far too freely between abstraction levels.

The rules for the game, clearly supersede the upgrade. The game mode rules define the parameters for the game.

Here is my take on what is going on:

Player 1 makes a deck where he decides to bid for initiative. Player 2 decide to go the opposite route decks out for going second.

After deciding on whether to go initiative or not, they need to pick the game modes that support their deck. Since player 2 is actively trying to go second, he picks game modes that will support him as the second player.

So player 1 wins initiative and he picks "Advanced Gunnery" from player 2s selection of cards.

Advanced Gunnery provides

player 1 with a free "Gunnery Team" 1.5 (edited)

player 2 with a free "Gunnery Team 2.0"

But here comes the trick:

Now both players have to pick an objective ship. Player 1 picks his "home one" and adds his free "gunnery team" (not the card of course, only the ability as outlined under "special rules".

Edited:

Player 2 has an ISD with "gunnery team" and a Gladiator without. If he selects his ISD as objective ship, he effectively looses the benefit of the free gunnery team 2.0 due to the "gunnery team" nullifying the free "gunnery team 2.0"

He can choose the Gladiator as objective ship, but this has far less hit points and it`s death can cause player 2 to loose the match. Player 2 needs to consider the ships he`s facing and decide whether to waste a powerfull ability or spread the abilities.

Player 1 needs to make a similar choice, but doesn`t get the version.

Not fitting "gunnery team" when your deck relies on it, because you hope for "advanced gunnery", is a major gamble. The FAQ intrpduces a balance where the player not wanting initiative stacks the game modes in his favour, but player 1 can review the ship setups and reverse the table.

FFG are clearly attempting to introduce a strategic mini-game leading up to the tactical skirmish of the actual ship combat.

• bid for initiative or not
• select supporting game modes
• player selecting game mode tries to turn the game mode against the player holding them
• analyze ship composition and upgrades before selecting game mode

will be interesting to see how they expand on it.

Clearly the game modes are an integral way of balancing the overall game experience.

Baudolino, don't take this the wrong way, but if you had read the FAQ, you would see that your entire argument falls apart.

Baudolino, actually the Adv Gunnery Objective, gives player 1 and Adv Gunnery, so player 1 gets a "better than the regular gunnery team upgrade" because Player 1 will be able to shoot "the same ship" twice, you can't do that with normal gunnery team, yes it has to be different hull zones, but the regular gunnery team doesn't allow this.\

HENCE the reason for MY argument FFG !!!!! , why are you nerfing player 2 from being able to shoot the same ship twice if player 2 ship has the "normal" gunnery team upgrade, BUT you are not nerf'ing player 1 from being able to shoot the same ship twice if player 1 has the "normal" gunnery team upgrade.

That's why i'm upset and i agree with Green Knight, nobody as explained WHY did FFG nerf player 2 but not nerf player 1, they same should apply to player 1, if player 1 has a gunnery team upgrade and selects that ship to be their objective ship , then they get nerf just like player 2.

Baudolino, don't take this the wrong way, but if you had read the FAQ, you would see that your entire argument falls apart.

I read the FAQ earlier and i got the info, but when i went for a walk with my baby, thinking about this post- i somehow forgot that player 1 actually gets a gunnery team 1.5

player 2 still gets a gunnery team 2.0, he just shouldn`t pick a ship with gunnery team as his objective ship. It`s a balancing move since the free gunnery team 2.0 is so **** powerfull.

edited my original text:

Edit:

Player 2 has an ISD with "gunnery team" and a Gladiator without. If he selects his ISD as objective ship, he effectively looses the benefit of the free gunnery team 2.0 due to the "gunnery team" nullifying the free "gunnery team 2.0"

He can choose the Gladiator as objective ship, but this has far less hit points and it`s death can cause player 2 to loose the match. Player 2 needs to consider the ships he`s facing and decide whether to waste a powerfull ability or spread the abilities.

Player 1 needs to make a similar choice, but doesn`t get the version.

Not fitting "gunnery team" when your deck relies on it, because you hope for "advanced gunnery", is a major gamble. The FAQ introduces a balance where the player not wanting initiative stacks the game modes in his favour, but player 1 can review the ship setups and reverse the table.

End edit

i don't see as a balance, i didn't see anything wrong with adv gunnery. it's giving player 2 his advantage then it's also giving player 1 an advantage as most of the RED objective cards do that. they are just not "equally" balancing it. it should read that player 1 also loses it's ability of ADV gunnery if it has gunnery team upgrade on it's objective ship.

i don't see as a balance, i didn't see anything wrong with adv gunnery. it's giving player 2 his advantage then it's also giving player 1 an advantage as most of the RED objective cards do that. they are just not "equally" balancing it. it should read that player 1 also loses it's ability of ADV gunnery if it has gunnery team upgrade on it's objective ship.

I`m thinking giving player 2 that ability with no caveats, gives too much upside for not having initiative. You can plan around it, by not relying on gunnery team for your preferred objective ship.

I think this dynamic makes the stage before the match, far more interesting. Wish they did this for X-wing as well. Making initiative bidding only a small part of the setup is genius.

Probably for this Simple Reason:

FAQs are Frequently Asked Questions.

They Ruled it on Player 2, as it was most commonly Player 2 that was Asked about.

No-one asked the Question on Player 1.

Ergo, it was not Frequently Asked...

I will also point this out (Emphasis Mine):

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets.

In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

Note: It does not say Upgrade Card . Simply, Card Effect .

Objectives are Cards

Upgrades are Cards

Ergo, an Upgrade Card that says Cannot is Absolute.

An Objective Card that says Cannot Is Absolute.

In no way are Objective cards superseding Upgrade cards in the Cannot department.

Because they are Cards.

And Any Card that says Cannot is Absolute .

The "Rules of the Game" are superseded by Upgrade Cards .

so that means player 1 cannot shoot the same ship twice in ADV gunnery

so that means player 1 cannot shoot the same ship twice in ADV gunnery

Only if they have a Gunnery Team/Slaved Turrets on their Objective ship. Otherwise yes they can shoot the same target twice, just different hull zones.

Honestly I do not understand the confusion, Dras has explained it in depth several times.

Advanced Gunnery allows player one to shoot a target from the same hull zone, targeting different hull zones, player two can shoot the same hull zone, from the same hull zone.

This only changes if either player one or player two has Gunnery Team / Slaved Turrets on their objective ship, then neither can shoot the same target twice, as GT does not allow you to target the same ship, and Slaved Turrets do not allow you to shoot twice.

End of discussion. The rule applies to both players equally.

LOL LOL. sorry. you need to go back and read Green Knight's original comment, then read the ONLY text in RED in the FAQ it states:

Again on my other post, if FFG intended for Player 1 to always have a free regular "Gunnery Team" upgrade from ADV Gunnery, then nobody has been playing it that way from the beginning as the text implies that player 1 can shoot the same ship twice as part of ADV Gunnery, which is not the same as the regular "Gunnery Team" upgrade. Right now the new ruling DOE NOT apply equally to both players.