Hi all, if Ello Asty performs a talon roll, can he then acquire a target lock from the targeting astromech's ability even though he treats the maneuver as white? I put both abilities below, thanks for your help
Ello Asty: While not stressed you may treat your tallon roll maneuvers as white maneuvers
Targeting Astromech: After you execute a red maneuver, you may acquire a target lock
I would say you could do one or the other as the pilot ability states "may" and the targeting astromech triggers off a red manoeuvre. ie:-
1) Treat it as a red manoeuvre, get stressed and take a target lock; or
2) Treat it as a white manoeuvre, no stress, but no target lock from the droid though you may take a target lock action
If you're treating the move as white (from Ello), how exactly does it become red for the targeting astro? It's either red or white. It can't be both.
I can see the confusion. The t-roll is shown as a red maneuver on the dial but it's treated as white if Ello is unstressed. It's like the EPT Adrenaline Rush. Reveal a red maneuver but treat it as white. In both cases you have revealed a red maneuver but treating them as white maneuvers.
Whay eryst said is right.
Ello's ability says you "may" treat the Talon Roll as white. If you do then it's white. Targeting Astromech would not trigger. You could opt to treat it as red and then the mech would trigger but it doesn't really help because you just get a TL and a stress. Treat it as white akd you can just do the TL action and not take a streas.
Is there an official ruling from ffg
Holy Necro Post Batman!
On topic: Why would there be a ruling? It's quite clear. Ello can treat T-Rolls as white. If he does ; they're no longer red. Ergo, Targeting Astro doesn't trigger.
I have friend who is claiming just because he treats them as white it's still a red maneuver and he won't accept anything but an official ruling
Edited by Paladin1127Well, he's wrong. Maneuvers have three elements: speed, bearing, and difficulty (colour). When Ello uses his ability he, for all intents and purposes, changes the colour element of the maneuver from red to white. So it's no longer a red maneuver.
Your friend is rule lawyering to the nth degree.
Ya, unfortunately he's the type to argue until I have an official ruling or he gets his way
Submit the question by email to ffg here:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/
You'll probably get an email back pretty quickly for such a simple question.
4 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:Well, he's wrong. Maneuvers have three elements: speed, bearing, and difficulty (colour). When Ello uses his ability he, for all intents and purposes, changes the colour element of the maneuver from red to white. So it's no longer a red maneuver.
Your friend is rule lawyering to the nth degree.
He's arguing to a lame degree. This one is as different as black and white (or should that be red and white?).
4 hours ago, Paladin1127 said:Ya, unfortunately he's the type to argue until I have an official ruling or he gets his way
Is he the type that's going to accept an email ruling as official? Because this one is so basically simple, that it's not likely to be a frequently asked question and thus not about to appear in the FAQ.
What would be the point of Ello Asty's ability if the T-roll is still red? What would be the point at all? If Ello gets to treat a T-roll as a white manoeuvre, but it's still red, does he get a stress token performing it or not? If your friend says he does, then the ability is completely redundant, and that makes zero sense.
Get him to explain exactly how Ello's ability works. That should have him contradicting himself.
Edited by ParravonIt sounds to me like the guy who won't accept anything other than an official ruling is the one USING Ello Asty with the targeting astromech. It sounds like he wants to play in the following sequence.
1) Execute a red T-Roll in order to trigger targeting astromech to acquire a TL
2) Treat the T-Roll as a white maneuver in order to avoid stress.
3) Perform a regular action.
The argument is whether or not treating a red maneuver as a white maneuver 'changes' the color of the maneuver. It may or may not and FFG is the final authority to clarify this. Unless there is clearly defined wording from FFG to clear the matter up, it's a fair argument that the words 'treating' and 'changing' are NOT the same unless defined this way by FFG. Players simply assuming that the two words are the same does not make a rule official no matter what the majority of opinion is. This is exactly why FFG can OVERRULE the majority of the player base exploiting things like a stress bot with a TLT in order to deal 2 stress per turn instead of one. Prior to FFG's clarity, the majority of players accepted that this was legal, even though it was never the intention of FFG.
This is exactly the same type of exploit and requires an official FAQ for Ello Asty regarding the word 'treat' to mean CHANGE. Unfortunately, until you get an official ruling, your gaming with this particular friend will be at a stand still unless you come to some form of agreement. Such is life in X-Wing.
Edited by iamzoner
like Iamzoner states
The argument is whether or not treating a red maneuver as a white maneuver 'changes' the color of the maneuver. It may or may not. But unless there is clearly defined wording from FFG to clear the matter up, it's a fair argument that the words 'treating' and 'changing' are NOT the same unless defined this way by FFG. Players simply assuming that the two words are the same does not make an official ruling.
Treat, does not mean change.
As Eryst brought up the wording "May" as in " you may treat" this gives the connotation of a choice, you may not want to treat as as a white maneuver, as there are cards that are beneficial to not treat it as a white maneuver.
Edited by Anatak125 hours ago, iamzoner said:It sounds to me like the guy who won't accept anything other than an official ruling is the one USING Ello Asty with the targeting astromech. It sounds like he wants to play in the following sequence.
1) Execute a red T-Roll in order to trigger targeting astromech to acquire a TL
2) Treat the T-Roll as a white maneuver in order to avoid stress.
3) Perform a regular action.
The argument is whether or not treating a red maneuver as a white maneuver 'changes' the color of the maneuver. It may or may not and FFG is the final authority to clarify this. Unless there is clearly defined wording from FFG to clear the matter up, it's a fair argument that the words 'treating' and 'changing' are NOT the same unless defined this way by FFG. Players simply assuming that the two words are the same does not make a rule official no matter what the majority of opinion is. This is exactly why FFG can OVERRULE the majority of the player base exploiting things like a stress bot with a TLT in order to deal 2 stress per turn instead of one. Prior to FFG's clarity, the majority of players accepted that this was legal, even though it was never the intention of FFG.
This is exactly the same type of exploit and requires an official FAQ for Ello Asty regarding the word 'treat' to mean CHANGE. Unfortunately, until you get an official ruling, your gaming with this particular friend will be at a stand still unless you come to some form of agreement. Such is life in X-Wing.
Of course it changes the colour of the manoeuvre! There are plenty of precedents where treating a particular game effect as something else is effectively changing it.
I think it's pretty well defined by FFG already and clear that treating a red manoeuvre as a white manoeuvre changes the color of the manoeuvre. Period. When something says to treat a game effect as somethng else, it changes it! There's no need for a FAQ entry to define "treat" and "change".
An unstressed Ello Asty will be able to execute white T-rolls. And the Targeting Astromech only triggers after executing a red manoeuvre, not revealing a red then changing it to white. The only way for Ello to trigger the droid, is to ignore the pilot ability and take the stress. Targeting Astromech and Ello Asty are a bad combination. When Ello has no stress, there's only the K-turn that will trigger the droid. Not very useful at all.
And as for R3-A2, the droid triggers when declaring a target, which you only do once with TLT or Cluster Missiles. That "majority" of players that were dealing 2 stress tokens were simply playing it incorrectly.
Parravon, site the sources, from what I read on more than a few of the cards you mentioned they did not say change they stated the word clearly as "treat" not "change"
you can treat s sports card like an off road four wheel drive but this does not change the fact that it is a sports car. Words have meaning and treat does not mean change.
But if you have sources from FF that state it does then of course for this game the question will be resolved.
Adrenaline Rush: "When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the Activation phase."
FAQ v4.3.1, page 6, Revealing Red Maneuvers: "When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.). After resolving these effects, if the ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [straight 2] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed."
Adrenaline Rush says "treat", the FAQ specifically names it as an effect that "changes" the maneuver.
28 minutes ago, FireSpy said:Adrenaline Rush: "When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the Activation phase."
FAQ v4.3.1, page 6, Revealing Red Maneuvers: "When a player reveals a red maneuver for a stressed ship, the only card effects he may resolve are those that change the maneuver to a different one (Adrenaline Rush, Navigator, etc.). After resolving these effects, if the ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [straight 2] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed."
Adrenaline Rush says "treat", the FAQ specifically names it as an effect that "changes" the maneuver.
I'd say this settles things pretty conclusively. It's a white. No Astromech trigger.
Which frankly was obvious but rules lawyers gotta rules lawyer.
Like I said, treat doesn't mean change UNLESS FFG states that it does. I don't really give a crap about your opinions on the issue. Unless, of course, you're an FFG authority answering the issue.
And for the record, lawyers exist entirely based on words and interpretation. FAQ 4.3.1 is a good start toward an answer to the issue, but it is not a clear answer.
Edited by iamzoner
They don't give you a scope in which you're supposed to treat the maneuver as white. It doesn't say "treat your [troll left] and [troll right] maneuvers as white during the Check Pilot Stress step" or "...for the purposes of determining whether you take stress". So, when Ello Asty's pilot ability is active, that Tallon Roll might as well be white for all intents and purposes. You are instructed to treat it that way.
Granted, the fact that the ability is optional leaves some ambiguity about when exactly you can decide which color the Tallon Roll is and how long you have to keep it that way before you can choose again. If Ello Asty does wind up getting to have his Target Lock and action too, it'll be because he's changing his mind about what color the troll is, not because "change" and "treat" are spelled and pronounced differently.
I think this is hugely unlikely, by the way, but I've been surprised by rulings before.
If we're really lucky, we'll get some kind of FAQ language that clears up this situation while future proofing other similar interactions, like: "Effects that change the color of a maneuver can only be resolved before the ship is moved, and once the maneuver begins the color cannot change."
Edited by digitalbusker6 hours ago, iamzoner said:Like I said, treat doesn't mean change UNLESS FFG states that it does. I don't really give a crap about your opinions on the issue. Unless, of course, you're an FFG authority answering the issue.
And for the record, lawyers exist entirely based on words and interpretation. FAQ 4.3.1 is a good start toward an answer to the issue, but it is not a clear answer.
There actually aren't any cards that "change" a component of a maneuver. Every effect that alters a maneuver "treats". You're looking for a keyword that doesn't exist. The wording is consistent across Adrenaline Rush, Countess Ryad, Ello Asty, Leia Organa, Light Scyk Interceptor, Nien Nunb, R2 Astromech, Stay On Target, Tetran Cowall, Twin Ion Engine Mk. II, and Unhinged Astromech.
Edited by kraedin12 hours ago, iamzoner said:Like I said, treat doesn't mean change UNLESS FFG states that it does. I don't really give a crap about your opinions on the issue. Unless, of course, you're an FFG authority answering the issue.
And for the record, lawyers exist entirely based on words and interpretation. FAQ 4.3.1 is a good start toward an answer to the issue, but it is not a clear answer.
You are wrong.
Some people just can't be told. It must be a real hoot to play with that guy. 
im send this question 6-1-2016..
n response to your rules question:
Rules Question:
Hello, Have a question over the pilot T70 Ello Asty make combo with Targetng astromech, if you make talonroll with Ello red maneuver,but the pilot skill say treat yout talon roll white, if have targeting astromech to target lock with make redmaneuver... The question is Ello Asty can target lock with droid if talonroll is white maneuver for him? thx.