He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

But shouldn't Dengar be removed immediately if he chooses not to use his counterattack on Soontir Fel? He had an opportunity to attack and chose not to use it.

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

But shouldn't Dengar be removed immediately if he chooses not to use his counterattack on Soontir Fel? He had an opportunity to attack and chose not to use it.

Actually, yes. Unfortunate interaction, in my opinion, but RAW, this appears to be how it works until an FAQ update clarifies it.

Dengar probably should've gone first but the Scum player chose to use Kath first instead. By the time it got to Dengar's opportunity to make an attack, there wasn't a valid target so he's removed then.

If there was another ship to attack, Dengar could have either gone first with his counter-attack on Soontir, or attacked the other ship, then get removed.

It's still down to player's choice as both Scum ships were PS9.

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

But shouldn't Dengar be removed immediately if he chooses not to use his counterattack on Soontir Fel? He had an opportunity to attack and chose not to use it.

Actually, yes. Unfortunate interaction, in my opinion, but RAW, this appears to be how it works until an FAQ update clarifies it.

Furthermore, there could be even trickier scenarios. Other player has PS 10, PS9, and initiative. PS 10 attacks Dengar and triggers ability, but without destroying ship. Dengar chooses not to counterattack, because he would rather counterattack another ship, but now he has technically had an opportunity to attack. Now, enemy PS 9 ship destroys Dengar, but as he has already had an opportunity to attack, he is immediately destroyed without resolving his ability. I think this is an unfortunate interpretation of the rules, while correct to the letter, I do not feel it is the intent. I am sure we will get an FAQ on this, and I am anticipating that it will be Dengar can retaliate whether or not he has been destroyed, and that he still gets his opportunity to attack during "combat activation" if he is destroyed by equal PS.

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

But shouldn't Dengar be removed immediately if he chooses not to use his counterattack on Soontir Fel? He had an opportunity to attack and chose not to use it.

Actually, yes. Unfortunate interaction, in my opinion, but RAW, this appears to be how it works until an FAQ update clarifies it.

Furthermore, there could be even trickier scenarios. Other player has PS 10, PS9, and initiative. PS 10 attacks Dengar and triggers ability, but without destroying ship. Dengar chooses not to counterattack, because he would rather counterattack another ship, but now he has technically had an opportunity to attack. Now, enemy PS 9 ship destroys Dengar, but as he has already had an opportunity to attack, he is immediately destroyed without resolving his ability. I think this is an unfortunate interpretation of the rules, while correct to the letter, I do not feel it is the intent. I am sure we will get an FAQ on this, and I am anticipating that it will be Dengar can retaliate whether or not he has been destroyed, and that he still gets his opportunity to attack during "combat activation" if he is destroyed by equal PS.

This situation I am not quite as clear on myself, but your interpretation makes a lot of sense. As written, this is likely the case.

He'd definitely get to perform an attack, just not both. He CAN choose to attack an out of arc target instead of his retaliation. SAR says perform an attack, does not mention opportunity to attack.

I think you need to read my example and the Simultaneous Attack Rule again. An "opportunity to attack" is a key phrase in the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and I'm not saying Dengar is denied his opportunity to attack. He still gets that. But in the order in which the scenario unfolded, the Scum player chose to use Kath instead of Dengar's ability first, and because Soontir was destroyed and had already attacked, Soontir was removed immediately after being destroyed by Kath. Keep in mind Soontir was the active ship at the beginning of the PS9 Combat and is not kept in play because of the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

This left Dengar still waiting for an opportunity to attack (via the Simultaneous Attack Rule) but now without a target. Even if the Scum player decided he wanted to use Dengar's ability, Soontir has been removed, and there are still no valid targets.

If by some weird interaction elsewhere on the play area, another ship comes into range of Dengar during the PS9 Combat, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule still being in effect for Dengar would allow him to attack before being removed.

@WWHSD: Kath is attacking before Dengar due to player's choice. Nothing else. I was thinking of a way to eliminate Soontir before Dengar had an attack. Dengar's ability does indeed trigger, but again that's also player's choice as to whether or not to use it. It's quite probable that a player would trigger Dengar's ability and attempt to destroy Soontir first. Maybe the attack from Kath's auxiliary arc looked more likely to destroy the pesky Baron and his annoying Autothrusters. Either way, Dengar is not being denied his opportunity to attack before being removed.

But shouldn't Dengar be removed immediately if he chooses not to use his counterattack on Soontir Fel? He had an opportunity to attack and chose not to use it.

Actually, yes. Unfortunate interaction, in my opinion, but RAW, this appears to be how it works until an FAQ update clarifies it.

Furthermore, there could be even trickier scenarios. Other player has PS 10, PS9, and initiative. PS 10 attacks Dengar and triggers ability, but without destroying ship. Dengar chooses not to counterattack, because he would rather counterattack another ship, but now he has technically had an opportunity to attack. Now, enemy PS 9 ship destroys Dengar, but as he has already had an opportunity to attack, he is immediately destroyed without resolving his ability. I think this is an unfortunate interpretation of the rules, while correct to the letter, I do not feel it is the intent. I am sure we will get an FAQ on this, and I am anticipating that it will be Dengar can retaliate whether or not he has been destroyed, and that he still gets his opportunity to attack during "combat activation" if he is destroyed by equal PS.

In the case you mention, I think Dengar would get a shot under the simultaneous attack rule. I also think there's some precedent for using his ability after being destroyed if not used previously in the round. Look at Fel's Wrath. He sticks around to the end of the round when destroyed. I think this is one of those abilities that overrides the rules mentioned in the Golden Rule, second paragraph. I think that pilot abilities are exempt unless critical damage was taken that specifically affects the pilot.

The debate rages on after several weeks and threads, and I hope we get an FAQ soon. I also emailed Frank on this too and hope FFG is at Adepticon where I can ask in person otherwise.

I would lobby that the pilot ability is separate from the normal and historic meaning of opportunity to attack. Dengar is setting new precedent in pilot abilities, and I don't think it should be taken away just because his ability involves red dice. All other pilots get to use their ability in such a simultaneous attack situation. Thus Dengar should get to as well, with both his payback and the traditional opportunity to attack.

But there isn't a definitive answer either way right now. Good arguments on both sides, but eagerly awaiting an official answer...

To make a parallel to current rules, I think that Dengar should not be allowed to use his skill when destroyed by a lower PS ship, because it is in line with other effects such as IG-A:

"If IG-88A destroys a ship at his pilot skill, he does not recover the shield until that ship has had an opportunity to attack with the Simultaneous Attack Rule."

so IG-A can be destroyed before he has an opportunity to recover that shield.

Destroyed ships stick around just to represent the fact that all PS at the same level shoot at the same time. If they survive the simultaneous attack moment, they get to use their abilities. However if Dengar has already shot, he's destroyed immediately, just like IG-A is destroyed immediately after having an opportunity to attack simultaneously, and IG-A's ability does not activate because he's dead. Since Dengar is dead, his ability cannot activate. If it was Dengar's PS moment, then he attacks once, but then he dies because he did his simultaneous attack. Dengar does not have time to activate his 2nd attack ability because he's now dead.

To make a parallel to current rules, I think that Dengar should not be allowed to use his skill when destroyed by a lower PS ship, because it is in line with other effects such as IG-A:

"If IG-88A destroys a ship at his pilot skill, he does not recover the shield until that ship has had an opportunity to attack with the Simultaneous Attack Rule."

so IG-A can be destroyed before he has an opportunity to recover that shield.

Destroyed ships stick around just to represent the fact that all PS at the same level shoot at the same time. If they survive the simultaneous attack moment, they get to use their abilities. However if Dengar has already shot, he's destroyed immediately, just like IG-A is destroyed immediately after having an opportunity to attack simultaneously, and IG-A's ability does not activate because he's dead. Since Dengar is dead, his ability cannot activate. If it was Dengar's PS moment, then he attacks once, but then he dies because he did his simultaneous attack. Dengar does not have time to activate his 2nd attack ability because he's now dead.

I don't really see much similarity between Dengar and IG88A.

IG88A triggers on the destruction of an enemy ship. The FAQ entry that you quoted establishes that it isn't the irreversible final damage card that marks the destruction of the ship, or even the conclusion of the attack in which that damage card was dealt, but the act of removing the ship from play that is the trigger. In a simultaneous attack scenario where IG88A was destroyed, it doesn't matter if he regenerates a shield when he is attacked because shields don't keep your ship from being destroyed.

I don't think that there is much disagreement on whether or not Dengar can use his ability when destroyed by a ship of a different PS than his. Ship destruction occurs during the attack so "after attacking" or "after defending" effects wouldn't trigger until after a ship has been destroyed.

To make a parallel to current rules, I think that Dengar should not be allowed to use his skill when destroyed by a lower PS ship, because it is in line with other effects such as IG-A:

"If IG-88A destroys a ship at his pilot skill, he does not recover the shield until that ship has had an opportunity to attack with the Simultaneous Attack Rule."

so IG-A can be destroyed before he has an opportunity to recover that shield.

Destroyed ships stick around just to represent the fact that all PS at the same level shoot at the same time. If they survive the simultaneous attack moment, they get to use their abilities. However if Dengar has already shot, he's destroyed immediately, just like IG-A is destroyed immediately after having an opportunity to attack simultaneously, and IG-A's ability does not activate because he's dead. Since Dengar is dead, his ability cannot activate. If it was Dengar's PS moment, then he attacks once, but then he dies because he did his simultaneous attack. Dengar does not have time to activate his 2nd attack ability because he's now dead.

I don't think that IG-88A is a good comparison. I mentioned Fel's Wrath earlier. He's a PS-5 and when killed he gets to stick around till the end of the round. There's precedence for the arguments on both sides but being S&V it would fit he would go down swinging.

88As ability is spelled out as is R2-D2s as far when shields can be restored. The only two restrictions on Dengar are in arc and after defending. The "yes he can shoot" side maintains his ability is triggered after defending even if he's destroyed very much like the simultaneous attack but not requiring an equal PS.

Furthermore, there could be even trickier scenarios. Other player has PS 10, PS9, and initiative. PS 10 attacks Dengar and triggers ability, but without destroying ship. Dengar chooses not to counterattack, because he would rather counterattack another ship, but now he has technically had an opportunity to attack. Now, enemy PS 9 ship destroys Dengar, but as he has already had an opportunity to attack, he is immediately destroyed without resolving his ability. I think this is an unfortunate interpretation of the rules, while correct to the letter, I do not feel it is the intent. I am sure we will get an FAQ on this, and I am anticipating that it will be Dengar can retaliate whether or not he has been destroyed, and that he still gets his opportunity to attack during "combat activation" if he is destroyed by equal PS.

No it doesn't work quite like that. After a PS10 opponent attacks Dengar, if he chooses not to use his counter-attack, that does not remove his opportunity to attack that's granted by the Simultaneous Attack Rule. What he has had, and not used, is the chance to trigger his ability. The "opportunity to attack" is only granted by the Simultaneous Attack Rule when he is destroyed by an opponent of the same PS and has not had his attack at that PS, and that's only likely to happen when he doesn't have the initiative. The opportunity to attack mentioned in the Simultaneous Attack Rule does not cover the entire Combat phase.

In your example, Dengar could have triggered his ability and counter-attacked the PS10 ship, and that still would not have removed or used his opportunity to attack when he was destroyed by the PS9 ship. He would still get his PS9 opportunity to attack before being removed because he hasn't had that yet.

The Simultaneous Attack Rule is a tricky little rule, but you must remember that it only applies to a ship that has just been destroyed by another ship of the same PS. Every other attack is just a regular attack. What you think may be "an unfortunate interpretation of the rules" is actually not applying the rule correctly. His normal attack sequence comes at PS9, and that's the opportunity that's normally referred to in the Simultaneous Attack Rule. Now whether he uses his ability counter-attack or his regular attack while under the Simultaneous Attack Rule (at PS9), is entirely up to the player. But either way he does get an opportunity to make an attack before being removed as destroyed.

just FAQ word "Immediately" in and no questions will arise.

just FAQ word "Immediately" in and no questions will arise.

That solves one small issue that not many people are having, but doesn't solve the question of whether Dengar's pilot ability counts as his opportunity to attack for the purposes of Simultaneous Attack Rule, and if it does, whether it counts even if he chooses not to trigger it when he has the option.

just FAQ word "Immediately" in and no questions will arise.

That solves one small issue that not many people are having, but doesn't solve the question of whether Dengar's pilot ability counts as his opportunity to attack for the purposes of Simultaneous Attack Rule, and if it does, whether it counts even if he chooses not to trigger it when he has the option.

It solves all the order shenanigans and PS questions.

Second half yes, is still unsolved.

The debate rages on after several weeks and threads, and I hope we get an FAQ soon. I also emailed Frank on this too and hope FFG is at Adepticon where I can ask in person otherwise.

I would lobby that the pilot ability is separate from the normal and historic meaning of opportunity to attack. Dengar is setting new precedent in pilot abilities, and I don't think it should be taken away just because his ability involves red dice. All other pilots get to use their ability in such a simultaneous attack situation. Thus Dengar should get to as well, with both his payback and the traditional opportunity to attack.

But there isn't a definitive answer either way right now. Good arguments on both sides, but eagerly awaiting an official answer...

So I am at the Hoth open and asked the FFG judge team (all 3 of them) before the tourney started. The answer was no double tap, but the reason was not the opportunity to attack. They said that the ability was not active prior to being destoyed. So that is fascinating. Not what I would have thought, but we have an answer and they reported that it will be in the next FAQ. Solved!

Hmmm.

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

Duplicate post, sorry.

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

The thing I find interesting about the Hoth "ruling" is that under the SAR, they consider his ability to be no longer applicable. It seems he's been destroyed so he no longer has an "after defending" trigger point. It's only his regular attack that is allowed under the SAR.

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

Absolutely he does.

The thing I find interesting about the Hoth "ruling" is that under the SAR, they consider his ability to be no longer applicable. It seems he's been destroyed so he no longer has an "after defending" trigger point. It's only his regular attack that is allowed under the SAR.

That really doesn't make much sense but since They designed the game, They make the rules. Maybe playtesters came up with a situation that we have yet to run into after this was sent to print. Or the ruling could've been "an audible" until all the designers could get together to hash it out. The FAQ will be interesting.

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

Absolutely he does.

The thing I find interesting about the Hoth "ruling" is that under the SAR, they consider his ability to be no longer applicable. It seems he's been destroyed so he no longer has an "after defending" trigger point. It's only his regular attack that is allowed under the SAR.

That really doesn't make much sense but since They designed the game, They make the rules. Maybe playtesters came up with a situation that we have yet to run into after this was sent to print. Or the ruling could've been "an audible" until all the designers could get together to hash it out. The FAQ will be interesting.

I can see their logic, although it can be slightly confusing. I'm wondering how many points may have been made when the question was asked, and how long before they gave their answer.

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

Absolutely he does.

The thing I find interesting about the Hoth "ruling" is that under the SAR, they consider his ability to be no longer applicable. It seems he's been destroyed so he no longer has an "after defending" trigger point. It's only his regular attack that is allowed under the SAR.

That really doesn't make much sense but since They designed the game, They make the rules. Maybe playtesters came up with a situation that we have yet to run into after this was sent to print. Or the ruling could've been "an audible" until all the designers could get together to hash it out. The FAQ will be interesting.

I can see their logic, although it can be slightly confusing. I'm wondering how many points may have been made when the question was asked, and how long before they gave their answer.

They gave the answer right away as if it had been thoroughly debated before the event. They were confident in their answer and also did a great job judging throughout the event, so my hats off to them for being prepared. I did email Frank a week before the event and said I'd ask there; and they were prepared. So thank you FFG even though I was hoping for a special case. Hoth was a blast!

Ok, question. At PS9 Dengar is attacked by 2 PS9s with initiative. The first attack leavss Dengar with 1 hp. He uses his pilot ability to counter attack. The second PS9 attacks destroying Dengar. Dengar returns fire under the SAR. Is this correct?

Edited for spelling.

Absolutely he does.

The thing I find interesting about the Hoth "ruling" is that under the SAR, they consider his ability to be no longer applicable. It seems he's been destroyed so he no longer has an "after defending" trigger point. It's only his regular attack that is allowed under the SAR.

Y

That really doesn't make much sense but since They designed the game, They make the rules. Maybe playtesters came up with a situation that we have yet to run into after this was sent to print. Or the ruling could've been "an audible" until all the designers could get together to hash it out. The FAQ will be interesting.

I can see their logic, although it can be slightly confusing. I'm wondering how many points may have been made when the question was asked, and how long before they gave their answer.

They gave the answer right away as if it had been thoroughly debated before the event. They were confident in their answer and also did a great job judging throughout the event, so my hats off to them for being prepared. I did email Frank a week before the event and said I'd ask there; and they were prepared. So thank you FFG even though I was hoping for a special case. Hoth was a blast!

It's possible that will bd THE answer when the FAQ is released. It might also be something they came up with as an interim answer until they can fully understand all the repercussions.