Zuckuss (Crew) - what green dice can you ask for rerolls

By tangoraven, in X-Wing Rules Questions

Natural Green Dice from ship Agility, range 3, obstructed - Yes

Evade added by C3PO - Yes/No?

Evade added by Evade token - Yes/No?

Any other situation where green dice is added through means not listed above?

Zuckuss triggers after defense dice have been rolled but before the defender modifies them.

Zuckuss can force the evade added by C-3PO to be rerolled because it is added before Zuckuss triggers. The evade from an evade token can't be rerolled by Zuckuss because the token isn't spent until after Zuckuss' trigger has passed.

Edited by WWHSD

Natural Green Dice from ship Agility, range 3, obstructed - Yes

Evade added by C3PO - Yes/No?

Evade added by Evade token - Yes/No?

Any other situation where green dice is added through means not listed above?

Zuckuss: When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice.

So, they have to be dice. Spending an evade token adds a result (RR p5), not a die, so that is a clear 'no.' The same is true for C-3PO.

Edit: Unless the posters above know something that I do not about literally adding a die when you add a result?

Edited by Rapture

:ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

Natural Green Dice from ship Agility, range 3, obstructed - Yes


Correct

Evade added by C3PO - Yes/No?


Based on the C-3PO FAQ regarding Juke, I would say yes (it implies that the C-3PO result is added before the attacker modifies defense dice).

Evade added by Evade token - Yes/No?


No, this is added when the defender modifies defense dice.

Any other situation where green dice is added through means not listed above?


Not off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone else will think of one. Unless otherwise indicated, they'll be added (by the defender) when the defender modifies defense dice, so it will be too late for Zuckuss to re-roll them.

Edited by FireSpy

Zuckuss: When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice.

So, they have to be dice. Spending an evade token adds a result (RR p5), not a die, so that is a clear 'no.' The same is true for C-3PO.

Edit: Unless the posters above know something that I do not about literally adding a die when you add a result?

Yes, this is how adding results works. It's very rarely relevant, because usually they're only added by Evade tokens, which happens after the attacker can modify them anyway, so very few people bother, but strictly speaking any form of addition of results is done by physically picking up a die, setting it to the relevant face, and putting it into the pool of rolled dice.

Zuckuss: When attacking, you may receive any number of stress tokens to choose an equal number of defense dice. The defender must reroll those dice.

So, they have to be dice. Spending an evade token adds a result (RR p5), not a die, so that is a clear 'no.' The same is true for C-3PO.

Edit: Unless the posters above know something that I do not about literally adding a die when you add a result?

Yes, this is how adding results works. It's very rarely relevant, because usually they're only added by Evade tokens, which happens after the attacker can modify them anyway, so very few people bother, but strictly speaking any form of addition of results is done by physically picking up a die, setting it to the relevant face, and putting it into the pool of rolled dice.

Yep. From the Rules Reference, p. 13:

Add: To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice. A die added in this way is treated as a normal die for all purposes and can be modified and canceled.

So explain to me how his re-roll of 3-P0's die matters other than if you rolled an evade that you'd lose by getting a blank or focus?

I am about to roll a single evade die. I declare that I will use C-3P0, guessing I'll roll 1 evade. I do. 3P0 triggers and adds an evade result, then the Zuckuss player can tell me to reroll, when I blank out, I now only have one result, yes? His forcing me to re-roll shouldn't affect the fact that I correctly guessed the original result of the roll, right?

Because that's what the "Yes" response above would seem to imply. That I guess, roll, am correct, but Zuckuss' reroll and my now subsequent incorrect guess means I don't get the 3P0 result. Which seems completely not the case to me.

C-3PO has come and gone nu the time Zuckuss triggers.

If you guessed correctly you added a green die with an evade symbol showing.

This is just as valid a die to reroll as the others.

So explain to me how his re-roll of 3-P0's die matters other than if you rolled an evade that you'd lose by getting a blank or focus?

I am about to roll a single evade die. I declare that I will use C-3P0, guessing I'll roll 1 evade. I do. 3P0 triggers and adds an evade result, then the Zuckuss player can tell me to reroll, when I blank out, I now only have one result, yes? His forcing me to re-roll shouldn't affect the fact that I correctly guessed the original result of the roll, right?

Because that's what the "Yes" response above would seem to imply. That I guess, roll, am correct, but Zuckuss' reroll and my now subsequent incorrect guess means I don't get the 3P0 result. Which seems completely not the case to me.

Not quite. An added result is added to the dice pool. So in your case, you guess 1, get it, 3P0 triggers and you now have 2 evades.

Zuckuss can now trigger and ask you to re-roll BOTH of them if he wishes, and you could potentially end with 0-1-2 results.

So explain to me how his re-roll of 3-P0's die matters other than if you rolled an evade that you'd lose by getting a blank or focus?

I am about to roll a single evade die. I declare that I will use C-3P0, guessing I'll roll 1 evade. I do. 3P0 triggers and adds an evade result, then the Zuckuss player can tell me to reroll, when I blank out, I now only have one result, yes? His forcing me to re-roll shouldn't affect the fact that I correctly guessed the original result of the roll, right?

Because that's what the "Yes" response above would seem to imply. That I guess, roll, am correct, but Zuckuss' reroll and my now subsequent incorrect guess means I don't get the 3P0 result. Which seems completely not the case to me.

Not quite. An added result is added to the dice pool. So in your case, you guess 1, get it, 3P0 triggers and you now have 2 evades.

Zuckuss can now trigger and ask you to re-roll BOTH of them if he wishes, and you could potentially end with 0-1-2 results.

Indeed. C3PO happens outside the normal sequence of modification steps - like HLC changing crits to hits - and adds a die to the normal pool which is then available for the attacker to modify however they can, such as this, such as Juke, etc.

Just trying to wrap my head around the timing here:

Attacker attacks

Defender modifies attack dice, attacker modifies attack dice.

Defender used C-3PO

Defender rolls defense dice, is correct, adds an evade result (dice)

Attacker modifies defense dice (using Zuckuss, for instance), defender modifies defense dice

Compare dice

Resolve damage.

Example,

4-Lom attacks with Crackshot and Zuckuss crew, rolling three dice and getting 2 hits and a blank

Defender has nothing to modify the attack dice, the attacker doesn't modify the attack dice.

Defender uses C-3PO, guessing 1. Rolls defense dice, getting 1 evade. Adds 1 evade result (dice)

Attacker uses Zuckus, takes 2 stress to force the defender to reroll both evade dice. One is blank, the other is a focus.

Defender uses a focus token to change the focus to an evade.

In the compare damage step, the attacker uses Crackshot to remove the evade. The defender resolves 2 damage.

Just trying to wrap my head around the timing here:

Attacker attacks

Defender modifies attack dice, attacker modifies attack dice.

Defender used C-3PO

Defender rolls defense dice, is correct, adds an evade result (dice)

Attacker modifies defense dice (using Zuckuss, for instance), defender modifies defense dice

Compare dice

Resolve damage.

Example,

4-Lom attacks with Crackshot and Zuckuss crew, rolling three dice and getting 2 hits and a blank

Defender has nothing to modify the attack dice, the attacker doesn't modify the attack dice.

Defender uses C-3PO, guessing 1. Rolls defense dice, getting 1 evade. Adds 1 evade result (dice)

Attacker uses Zuckus, takes 2 stress to force the defender to reroll both evade dice. One is blank, the other is a focus.

Defender uses a focus token to change the focus to an evade.

In the compare damage step, the attacker uses Crackshot to remove the evade. The defender resolves 2 damage.

Correct

Okay, so apparently I've never noticed that section of the rules reference where adding results requires that you take a die and add it to the pool, whic can then be modified as normal. That just seems ridiculous to me.

Let's say I only own three dice. I roll all three, using C-3P0. I correctly guess the result. Now, I'm instructed to add a die with his evade to the pool. But I don't have a 4th die. And with Zuckuss, I can be made to reroll the whole result, including the die "added" by 3p0. But I don't have 4 dice to roll.

Adding results by placing extra dice onto the correct face and into the pool "now treating them as if they had been there all along and to be treated as actual dice" has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've come across in terms of the way things work in X-wing.

Let's say I only own three dice. I roll all three, using C-3P0. I correctly guess the result. Now, I'm instructed to add a die with his evade to the pool. But I don't have a 4th die. And with Zuckuss, I can be made to reroll the whole result, including the die "added" by 3p0. But I don't have 4 dice to roll.

Fortunately, the Rules Reference already has you covered. Near the end of the "Attack" entry on page 5, there's this little dot point:

If players would roll more dice than the maximum number that they have available, keep track of the rolled results and reroll the dice necessary to equal the total number of dice the player would have rolled all at once. Note that these dice are not considered rerolled for the purposes of modifying dice.

This would, of course, get rather clunky in this specific situation where you could be 2-3 dice above what you have, but it will work.

Okay, so apparently I've never noticed that section of the rules reference where adding results requires that you take a die and add it to the pool, whic can then be modified as normal. That just seems ridiculous to me.

Let's say I only own three dice. I roll all three, using C-3P0. I correctly guess the result. Now, I'm instructed to add a die with his evade to the pool. But I don't have a 4th die. And with Zuckuss, I can be made to reroll the whole result, including the die "added" by 3p0. But I don't have 4 dice to roll.

Adding results by placing extra dice onto the correct face and into the pool "now treating them as if they had been there all along and to be treated as actual dice" has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've come across in terms of the way things work in X-wing.

Edited by nigeltastic

Zuckuss triggers after defense dice have been rolled but before the defender modifies them.

Zuckuss can force the evade added by C-3PO to be rerolled because it is added before Zuckuss triggers. The evade from an evade token can't be rerolled by Zuckuss because the token isn't spent until after Zuckuss' trigger has passed.

Why do we assume that C3PO triggers before Zuckuss triggers? If the only support for this is the Juke/C3PO FAQ, is it possible that Juke was ruled an exception? I think that we have to play C3PO as the rules are written until we are told otherwise. You add results at step 5ii which occurs after Zuckuss triggers. Zuckuss can make you reroll the actual green dice but not the evade that C3PO adds because that die is not on the table at the time Zuckuss triggers.

Zuckuss triggers after defense dice have been rolled but before the defender modifies them.

Zuckuss can force the evade added by C-3PO to be rerolled because it is added before Zuckuss triggers. The evade from an evade token can't be rerolled by Zuckuss because the token isn't spent until after Zuckuss' trigger has passed.

Why do we assume that C3PO triggers before Zuckuss triggers? If the only support for this is the Juke/C3PO FAQ, is it possible that Juke was ruled an exception? I think that we have to play C3PO as the rules are written until we are told otherwise. You add results at step 5ii which occurs after Zuckuss triggers. Zuckuss can make you reroll the actual green dice but not the evade that C3PO adds because that die is not on the table at the time Zuckuss triggers.

Why assume it's an exception?

Zuckuss triggers after defense dice have been rolled but before the defender modifies them.

Zuckuss can force the evade added by C-3PO to be rerolled because it is added before Zuckuss triggers. The evade from an evade token can't be rerolled by Zuckuss because the token isn't spent until after Zuckuss' trigger has passed.

Why do we assume that C3PO triggers before Zuckuss triggers? If the only support for this is the Juke/C3PO FAQ, is it possible that Juke was ruled an exception? I think that we have to play C3PO as the rules are written until we are told otherwise. You add results at step 5ii which occurs after Zuckuss triggers. Zuckuss can make you reroll the actual green dice but not the evade that C3PO adds because that die is not on the table at the time Zuckuss triggers.

Because of specifically when the card says it triggers.

Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.

C-3PO specifically says it occurs before modifying dice. Zuckuss is in the modifying dice step.
Edited by Zefirus

Zuckuss can also make you refill the evade granted by Latts Crew when spending the attackers stress token.

Zefirus, the before modifying dice refers to guessing the result (so you cannot guess 1, roll 0, then re-roll with Lone Wolf and get the one to collect the C3-PO additional result).

Anyway, the card does not specify any other timing, hence it is resolved immediately as any other effect in the game. As the whole guessing and rolling happens before dice modification, you cannot do much about that and yes, this evade result can be affected by Zuckuss.

Zuckuss can also make you refill the evade granted by Latts Crew when spending the attackers stress token.

No, he can't. That is added in the Defender Modifies Defence Dice step, Zuckuss acts before that in the Attacker Modifies Defence Dice step.

C3PO is the exception, not the rule.