Hi folks,

we are all creating pcs for an upcoming RT game. Have a rules issue. I thought this was clear - but maybe it isn't.

after going through the pc gen process: background, intro career skills, talents, etc, you have 500xps to spend to bring your pc up to the equivalent rank 5 DH pc. Got that bit.

It looks like you can spend all/ some/ none of your 500 xps from the Character advances table and / or the Rank 1 table for your career.

QUESTION: IF you choose a skill you already have, as it says on p30, can you thus improve that skill, gaining a +10 bonus to that skill? Is this legal in pc creation? Or do I have to wait until I gain more xps?

I think I can.

The GM has gotten the idea from some other fourm boards that this isn't possible. Is there some errata I am missing here - or is it as simple as I think it is, and that other folks have misinterpreted what seems evidently clear?

Thanks if anyone is any the wiser!

Maximillius XVIII

those skills are listed there merely for completeness sake, they did the same thing with DH in one of the erratta. You can only buy +10 or +20 to a skill if it says +10 or +20 next to the skill

gotcha! Thanks - that was not at all clear (in the book)!!!! lol! But a quick look and that makes sense now. Thanks.

Yes, thank you! I'm the GM in question, and it's nice to get a civil reply. Thanks again!

gotcha! Thanks - that was not at all clear (in the book)!!!! lol! But a quick look and that makes sense now. Thanks.

As a matter of fact, it's perfectly clear. The general rule is that you get what you buy. The exception to that rule is that when you get a skill in the Origin Path section that you already have, you get the next level. That's it. Nowhere else, unless the other place also says so.

The reason for talents and skills being listed again is that later books will have alternate starting packages for the base careers. If you don't get say move silent you can get move silent +10. This allows players to pick up anything they might have missed, and not gimp their characters further advancement.

Read the small box in the lower left hand corner of page 15 titled "Skills and Talents Redux" where it states if you already have a skill you get skill matery for that skill or +10 mod and if you get a talent you already had you get Talented (chose one" talent. Just FYI for all.

Dragoneye9 said:

That only applies to skills and talents gained from "different sources". Starting skills and talents come from the first rank of a characters career and anything they then spend XP on will likely come from their career as well and, as such, do not come from "different sources" and so that box dose not apply. It is only, at this time, applicable to skills and talents gained on the origin path and as elite advances.

Graver said:

That's true.

However, what's the case with skills on the careerpath later on?

I mean, if we take the Scrutiny skill for example. Some careerpaths only permit that skill to be taken on rank 2. So let's say that I made a character who was press-ganged in his origin path and I take scrutiny as the skill (Press-ganged permits you to take any skill as long as it doesn't have any prerequisites, and also one common lore skill, or improve one common lore skill that you already have).

Would paying the xp for Scrutiny later on give that character Scrutiny +10 instead? If so, what happens when you buy the "real" Scrutiny +10, will the skill increase to +20 instead? Or will the "real" Scrutiny +10 be "capped" from before, so you have to wait until you can buy Scrutiny +20 later on?

I like the "Skills and Talents the Sequel" black box, but some parts of it's use still seem a bit foggy.

Varnias Tybalt said:

From what I have read, your interpretation would be correct as there's nothing in the text that counters such an assertion. However, if you were my player, I would give you a firm "hell no" to being able to bump Scrutiny (or any skill/talent) in such a manner.

The reason for the box and the rule it contains seems to be insuring that all PC's end the origin path and their career choice with roughly the same amount or value of stuff. This is, I believe, to make sure there is no "optimal" path and no "gimped" path, that all choices are, to a sane degree, numerically valid so you don't end up with everyone fallowing the same path because anything else would lead to less stuff in the end. However, as that is what I feel is the reason for the box and rule, such ends when character generation ends. Once you're on your career path and playing the game, it's all been leveled out, you started with the same amount of stuff no matter the path you chose and now can continue receiving a fair amount of stuff as determined by XP and what is available for purchase (as there will always be enough stuff to purchase per rank). Being able to prematurely boost certain skills and talents would only offset the initial leveling of the field that the rule tried to initiate and open up what it tried to prevent, optimal paths and gimped paths (though I'm not saying those don't exist, but they're currently not as obvious or clear cut as they would be if skill and talent stacking continued beyond character generation).

The above is, of course, just my interpretation of things and is, in no way that I'm aware of, actually supported expliciltly in the text.

Graver said:

Okay, im just trying to establish the RAW before doing house rules for it.

To be honest, I might be inclined to let players do it like that, but once they can buy skill +20, they will instead receive the Talented, talent for that skill (sort of like how it gets when you get the same talent twice), because there's no such thing as skill +30.

Also, im not sure doing this would gimp or optimize the career path. To be honest, I find the careerpaths in Rogue Trader to be rather limited. In Dark Heresy all careerpaths had ranks that included A LOT more choices between skills and talents than the career paths of Rogue Trader do. (for instance, if I want a Seneschal who can pilot spacecraft, I pretty much have to try and find it as an elite advance)

Sure, while the DH careerpaths did bar certain skills and talents for certain characters, you still had more choices and potential for diversity during any given careerpath.

Rogue Trader seems to have done it the other way around. In Rogue Trader you have a very wide selection of configurations for your character's background with the Origin Path (where Dark Heresy was pretty limited at first, until IH came out), but once the careerpath is chosen, it seems to be more of a "race towards optimizing your skills and characteristics" rather than being able to take different venues with your PC's progression. Not only because of the limited amount of talents and skills to choose from, but also the complete lack of "forkings" in the careerpath like DH had.

Cifer said:

I suspect you and I have a very different definition of "perfectly clear"- it doesn't mention Origin Paths at any point in that paragraph. I don't disagree with your interpretation, but it's not clear- just like in DH, anything involving Skill Masteries is completely contradictory toward how gaining Skills actually works.