Greetings forumites,

While at a store championship last week a couple players at an adjacent table ended up with a rules quandary. Bossk rolled hit-hit-hit-crit against Biggs (with R4-D6 equipped), who rolled one evade.

Boss's card states: "When you perform an attack that hits, before dealing damage, you may cancel 1 of your <kaboom> results to add 2 <boom> results."

R4-D6's card states: "When you are hit by an attack and there are at least 3 uncanceled <boom> results, you may choose to cancel those results until there are 2 remaining. For each result canceled this way, receive 1 stress token."

Both cards should activate simultaneously, after canceling hits with evade dice but before actually dealing damage, but the crux of it is who has the opportunity to modify the results first and the difference in results is quite drastic. If the defender modifies first then he'll receive 4 hits as R4-D6 can't do anything against the hit-hit-crit, but if the attacker modifies first then R4-D6 can reduce the 4 hits to 2. I think that the players agreed not to change anything (no Bossk and no R4-D6) and left the hit-hit-crit result, and after the match we discussed it and most of us agreed that in this case the defender should modify the uncanceled attack dice first (following the general order of sensor jammer/juke that your opponent gets to modify your dice first). Of course this interaction renders the droid's ability useless, which I find to be quite extreme.

Thoughts?

The defender actually gets to modify attack dice before the attacker, and vice versa with modifying the defender's defense dice by the attacker.

Modify Attack Dice: The defender can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his attack dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible.

Taken from the Phases / Order of Gameplay page on the wiki.

Edit:

Oh yeah - if it's determined that there's a hit, the modify steps are already over. Whoops.

Looks like both effect has the same timing window. In this case the player with initiative triggers his card first.

The sensor jammer and juke are not good for precedent, because the modifying attack and defense dice has an established order in the rulebook: defender modifies the attack roll first, and the attacker modifies the defense roll first. No such regulation exists for the compare result/deal damage steps, so you should use initiative to decide the activation order.

I'd still argue that Bossk would still have the later trigger, as he'd still be waiting to the actual moment he's dealing the damage to activate but initiative seems like the most sensible way to resolve that interaction.

Looks like both effect has the same timing window. In this case the player with initiative triggers his card first.

The sensor jammer and juke are not good for precedent, because the modifying attack and defense dice has an established order in the rulebook: defender modifies the attack roll first, and the attacker modifies the defense roll first. No such regulation exists for the compare result/deal damage steps, so you should use initiative to decide the activation order.

While I agree that it's not the same timing window as juke and sensor jammer, those cards are precedent for when players may modify their opponent's dice. Crackshot also comes to mind but that's specifically said to be at the end of it all.

As for using initiative, I would claim that Bossk being a PS7 would go first and then Biggs second, only using player initiative in the event both ships having equal pilot skill. Edit: I just realized that's exactly what you said X(.

An attack that hits is not determined until after the Compare Results step:

Now the abilities of Boosk and R4 come into play and are resolved according to initiative. Yet, in this case, one hit has already been cancelled, so R4's ability would not be able to be triggered, so only Boosk's ability would have the opportunity to trigger.

But if Bossk uses his ability to cancel the crit and add two hits to the result for four hits, R4 can now take effect against the four uncanceled hits.

Now the abilities of Boosk and R4 come into play and are resolved according to initiative. Yet, in this case, one hit has already been cancelled, so R4's ability would not be able to be triggered, so only Boosk's ability would have the opportunity to trigger.

But if Bossk uses his ability to cancel the crit and add two hits to the result for four hits, R4 can now take effect against the four uncanceled hits.

Don't confuse me with the facts. ;-)

In this case, Boosk(PS7) would trigger first and if triggered, then R4 on Biggs (PS5) could be triggered, since there would be at least three uncancelled hits when the

time came for R4's ability to trigger.

But the question comes into play is if R4 is on a higher PS pilot than Boosk or and equal PS piiot with Initiative. I would say in that case, R4 would have to test first and then miss its opportunity to trigger, since abilities that trigger at the same time happen in Initiative order.

Now the abilities of Boosk and R4 come into play and are resolved according to initiative. Yet, in this case, one hit has already been cancelled, so R4's ability would not be able to be triggered, so only Boosk's ability would have the opportunity to trigger.

But if Bossk uses his ability to cancel the crit and add two hits to the result for four hits, R4 can now take effect against the four uncanceled hits.

Don't confuse me with the facts. ;-)

In this case, Boosk(PS7) would trigger first and if triggered, then R4 on Biggs (PS5) could be triggered, since there would be at least three uncancelled hits when the

time came for R4's ability to trigger.

But the question comes into play is if R4 is on a higher PS pilot than Boosk or and equal PS piiot with Initiative. I would say in that case, R4 would have to test first and then miss its opportunity to trigger, since abilities that trigger at the same time happen in Initiative order.

No, not on pilot skill.

When two effects with the same timing trigger trigger simultaneously, it is initiative which decides the tie. Pilot skill has nothing to do with it.

Actually I think that in the above scenario R4D6 would only trigger if Bossk uses his ability.

Because R4D6 trigger is not the same as Bossk:

R4-D6's card states: "When you are hit by an attack and there are at least 3 uncanceled <boom> results, you may choose to cancel those results until there are 2 remaining. For each result canceled this way, receive 1 stress token."

R4D6 trigger also includes a condition on 3 uncanceled <boom> results; so does not trigger until Bossk uses his ability. The triggers are not simultaneous.

It would only be simultaneous on a <boom><boom><boom><kaboom> no evade scenario and even then, if R4D6 has initiative it would get to trigger a second time after bossk usage as the trigger would be fulfilled a second time.

I would argue after you change the dice it wouldnt trigger again. You are only 'hit' by the attack once. Using Bossk doesnt make you 'hit' again.

I would argue after you change the dice it wouldnt trigger again. You are only 'hit' by the attack once. Using Bossk doesnt make you 'hit' again.

This is the only thorny part of the issue. (Otherwise, it would simply be resolved by initiative.) If the R4-D6 player has initiative and passes on the timing window, is there another opportunity after the Bossk player modifies? I'd argue there isn't.

Looks like both effect has the same timing window. In this case the player with initiative triggers his card first.

The sensor jammer and juke are not good for precedent, because the modifying attack and defense dice has an established order in the rulebook: defender modifies the attack roll first, and the attacker modifies the defense roll first. No such regulation exists for the compare result/deal damage steps, so you should use initiative to decide the activation order.

While I agree that it's not the same timing window as juke and sensor jammer, those cards are precedent for when players may modify their opponent's dice. Crackshot also comes to mind but that's specifically said to be at the end of it all.

As for using initiative, I would claim that Bossk being a PS7 would go first and then Biggs second, only using player initiative in the event both ships having equal pilot skill. Edit: I just realized that's exactly what you said X(.

Nope, juke and sensor jammer are not precedents. The defender modifies the attacker dice before the attacker does, because these two events happen in two different timing windows, by the rules. Bossk's and R4-D6 triggers in the same timing window. Apples and oranges.

Pilot Skill does not matter in the activation order of card abilities. The player with the initiative activates first, even if he has lower PS.

Actually I think that in the above scenario R4D6 would only trigger if Bossk uses his ability.

Because R4D6 trigger is not the same as Bossk:

R4-D6's card states: "When you are hit by an attack and there are at least 3 uncanceled <boom> results, you may choose to cancel those results until there are 2 remaining. For each result canceled this way, receive 1 stress token."

R4D6 trigger also includes a condition on 3 uncanceled <boom> results; so does not trigger until Bossk uses his ability. The triggers are not simultaneous.

It would only be simultaneous on a <boom><boom><boom><kaboom> no evade scenario and even then, if R4D6 has initiative it would get to trigger a second time after bossk usage as the trigger would be fulfilled a second time.

The timing window is "when you hit by an attack'. The 3 uncancelled <boom> result is just a condition of triggering R4-D6, not a timing window.

The real question is, is it the same timing window.

R4-D6 triggers 'When you are hit by an attack and there are at least 3 uncancelled Hit results.'

Bossk triggers 'when you perform at attack that hits, before dealing damage.'

Does this mean that Bossk happens at the beginning of the 7. Deal Damange step, as opposed to in the 6. Compare results step.

Based on the Bossk FAQ, that clarifies that it happens before 2 other effects that happen in step 7, you could argue that R4-D6 always happen first, and then Bossk. But if Bossk happens in step 6, then it is determined by Initiative.

I am partial to Bossk happening in Step 7, but I am be no mans 100% sure that is the correct call.

Let's see if I can make a sensible answer this time.

Once step 6 of the Attack sequence is done you know if the attack is a hit.

It is at this point that Bossk and R4 can trigger. And they are resolved in Initiative order.

If R4 goes first and there are not at least 3 uncancelled hits, then R4 can not trigger and now Bossk gets his chance to cancel the crit.

If Bossk goes first, and decides to make use of his ability, then when R4 gets his chance then there are now at least 3 uncancelled hits on the table, so he can trigger his ability. I don't think the game state remembers the dice that where there before Bossk used his ability; it's what is on the table now that counts.

I would say It is implied with these cards, that you have to tally up a new number of uncancelled hits before moving on to step 7 to deal damage.

I agree. Same time - initiative rules.