The firespray and houndstooth can always shoot their primary weapons out of their primary or auxiliary arcs.

On the autothrusters card it states

When defending, if you are inside the attacker's firing arc beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to an evade result. You can equip this card only if you have the Boost action icon.

The rear arc is NOT a firing arc unless you have a torpedo or ghost/phantom title. Nowhere does it say anything about a printed firing in the new faq or the autothrusters card. It states the "attackers" firing arc meaning an arc it can shoot out of. Once you shoot off the torpedo, that arc is also no longer active.

I agree that thematically it sounds like this might be a good idea. But there are other thematic way of looking at it. Having a torpedo or not the ships may still have the guidance and sighting equipment in there to make the special arc always valid with a weapon, without a weapon or even after a spent weapon.

However we may want to discuss the thematic use of this. The rules do not state when the arc does not exist. The rules only say if it is printed on your card you have an arc and may do the following. Doing or not doing the following is not a prerequisite of having the arc.

i.e. The rules must state 'the arc does not exists if blah, blah, blah' and they do not say that.

The Dash example doesn't work anyway. Outrider allows the HLC to be used outside of arc but the arc is still there AND active due to HLC.

The firespray and houndstooth can always shoot their primary weapons out of their primary or auxiliary arcs.

On the autothrusters card it states

When defending, if you are inside the attacker's firing arc beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to an evade result. You can equip this card only if you have the Boost action icon.

The rear arc is NOT a firing arc unless you have a torpedo or ghost/phantom title. Nowhere does it say anything about a printed firing in the new faq or the autothrusters card. It states the "attackers" firing arc meaning an arc it can shoot out of. Once you shoot off the torpedo, that arc is also no longer active.

I agree that thematically it sounds like this might be a good idea. But there are other thematic way of looking at it. Having a torpedo or not the ships may still have the guidance and sighting equipment in there to make the special arc always valid with a weapon, without a weapon or even after a spent weapon.

However we may want to discuss the thematic use of this. The rules do not state when the arc does not exist. The rules only say if it is printed on your card you have an arc and may do the following. Doing or not doing the following is not a prerequisite of having the arc.

i.e. The rules must state 'the arc does not exists if blah, blah, blah' and they do not say that.

This is the first time this has happened and is causing confusion. They will most likely have to FAQ this.

[...]

This is the first time this has happened and is causing confusion. They will most likely have to FAQ this.

True this is a brand new arc. But until then we are reading more into the rules than are actually printed. Unless they FAQ it or the rules specifically say the arc does not exist upon a certain condition, then it is best to read the rules as they were written. Goodness did I just say that?

I've fired off a question to FFG about this and will post their response.

Sounds like a prudent move. Kudos.

While I understand your point of view, I'd like to elaborate on my reasoning, especially regarding TLT and Tactician:

TLTs do not require a firing arc. They have little or nothing to do with them. If you are at R2 and just barely inside my arc, and I have Tactician, firing at you twice will cause you to be double stressed. We know this because we've seen K-Wings do it. If you are just outside my arc, I may still fire the TLTs at you. The TLTs function completely independently of the firing arc, but Tactician does not.

Tactician works in arcs other than primary firing arcs. We know that if you fire at someone out of an auxiliary arc at R2 with a Firespray, they take a stress. There is no contention on that point. We now know that Tactician works out of non-primary firing arcs, and it also works with a TLT, despite the TLT not needing to actually use any firing arc to find its targets. Tactician works on an auxiliary firing arc, because like autothrusters, it makes absolutely no distinction about the type of firing arc or whether or not your weapon actually needs to use it.

Torpedoes may fire out of the special firing arc of the ghost anytime you have one loaded. The ghost can fire the primary weapon out of the auxiliary arc if it has a shuttle docked. There are limitations about what this arc may be used for and when. The arc is printed on the base card. There is nothing in any portion of the rules that indicates a time when this arc "does not exist". It is a printed arc, and while the uses of it are limited, it always exists. If this arc always exists, it is most logical to assume that firing a TLT out of this "special arc" functions just like a HWK firing a TLT inside its "primary arc" and triggering tactician. The arc and the TLT have nothing to do with each other, but because the arc exists, the requirements of tactician are met.

Some people do not think interaction makes sense, because they believe that the special arc "is not an arc unless torpedoes are being fired, or you have a shuttle docked". That is an understandable gut reaction, but it is contrary to the rules as written. It is not stated anywhere.

Just my two cents on the matter. Hope it clarifies my position.

The firespray and houndstooth can always shoot their primary weapons out of their primary or auxiliary arcs.

On the autothrusters card it states

When defending, if you are inside the attacker's firing arc beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to an evade result. You can equip this card only if you have the Boost action icon.

The rear arc is NOT a firing arc unless you have a torpedo or ghost/phantom title. Nowhere does it say anything about a printed firing in the new faq or the autothrusters card. It states the "attackers" firing arc meaning an arc it can shoot out of. Once you shoot off the torpedo, that arc is also no longer active.

I agree that thematically it sounds like this might be a good idea. But there are other thematic way of looking at it. Having a torpedo or not the ships may still have the guidance and sighting equipment in there to make the special arc always valid with a weapon, without a weapon or even after a spent weapon.

However we may want to discuss the thematic use of this. The rules do not state when the arc does not exist. The rules only say if it is printed on your card you have an arc and may do the following. Doing or not doing the following is not a prerequisite of having the arc.

i.e. The rules must state 'the arc does not exists if blah, blah, blah' and they do not say that.

This is the first time this has happened and is causing confusion. They will most likely have to FAQ this.

The only thing causing confusion is people refusing to acknowledge what the FAQ already clearly says about firing arcs.

I've fired off a question to FFG about this and will post their response.

Sounds like a prudent move. Kudos.

While I understand your point of view, I'd like to elaborate on my reasoning, especially regarding TLT and Tactician:

TLTs do not require a firing arc. They have little or nothing to do with them. If you are at R2 and just barely inside my arc, and I have Tactician, firing at you twice will cause you to be double stressed. We know this because we've seen K-Wings do it. If you are just outside my arc, I may still fire the TLTs at you. The TLTs function completely independently of the firing arc, but Tactician does not.

Tactician works in arcs other than primary firing arcs. We know that if you fire at someone out of an auxiliary arc at R2 with a Firespray, they take a stress. There is no contention on that point. We now know that Tactician works out of non-primary firing arcs, and it also works with a TLT, despite the TLT not needing to actually use any firing arc to find its targets. Tactician works on an auxiliary firing arc, because like autothrusters, it makes absolutely no distinction about the type of firing arc or whether or not your weapon actually needs to use it.

Torpedoes may fire out of the special firing arc of the ghost anytime you have one loaded. The ghost can fire the primary weapon out of the auxiliary arc if it has a shuttle docked. There are limitations about what this arc may be used for and when. The arc is printed on the base card. There is nothing in any portion of the rules that indicates a time when this arc "does not exist". It is a printed arc, and while the uses of it are limited, it always exists. If this arc always exists, it is most logical to assume that firing a TLT out of this "special arc" functions just like a HWK firing a TLT inside its "primary arc" and triggering tactician. The arc and the TLT have nothing to do with each other, but because the arc exists, the requirements of tactician are met.

Some people do not think interaction makes sense, because they believe that the special arc "is not an arc unless torpedoes are being fired, or you have a shuttle docked". That is an understandable gut reaction, but it is contrary to the rules as written. It is not stated anywhere.

Just my two cents on the matter. Hope it clarifies my position.

It isn't just a primary arc. It is the arc for secondary weapons too. Some weapons allow you fire "out of arc" such as primary weapon turrets and secondary weapon turrets but the arcs are still in play as is evident by the tactician ruling.

In the case of a torpedo, it would be fired out of the arc that the defender would be in so there is no confusion. ALL secondary weapons can be fired out of the primary firing arc. Some can be fired out of auxiliary firing arcs or out of arc but the arcs are still there.

This is the only case where the arc has nothing to do with the weapon in question.

[...] ALL secondary weapons can be fired out of the primary firing arc. Some can be fired out of auxiliary firing arcs or out of arc but the arcs are still there.

This is the only case where the arc has nothing to do with the weapon in question.

Umm nope. There are secondary weapons that can only fire in the primary firing arc such as cannons and torpedoes unless otherwise specified.

So this conclusion is faulty. Sorry

There is no confusion, there is just obstinate intuition. That's not the same thing.

X-Wing current rules are established for PRINTED FIRING ARCS.

There are no rules that single out SPECIAL FIRING ARCS not being considered PRINTED FIRING ARCS.

We don't read rules/FAQ/whatever that aren't printed.

Therefore, the SPECIAL FIRING ARC = a PRINTED FIRING ARC. Always. At all times.


Do I think this is RAI? Absolutely not. Does RAW care about intention? Absolutely not.

So, until an errata/FAQ is published stating otherwise, the special firing arc works as a printed firing arc.

It doesn't matter what should be, or what you're opinion is. It doesn't matter how you translate the rules to fit your interpretation. There are NO other sources for SPECIAL firing arcs, but there are sources for PRINTED firing arcs.

[...] ALL secondary weapons can be fired out of the primary firing arc. Some can be fired out of auxiliary firing arcs or out of arc but the arcs are still there.

This is the only case where the arc has nothing to do with the weapon in question.

Umm nope. There are secondary weapons that can only fire in the primary firing arc such as cannons and torpedoes unless otherwise specified.

So this conclusion is faulty. Sorry

What?

That is exactly what I said and arc has everything to do with it.

The ghost/phantom title allows primary to be fired out of rear arc and the normal ghost ability is to fire torpedoe out of the primary firing or or the special firing arc.

With Moralo Eval, he can fire secondary weapons such as hlc or mangler cannon out of his auxiliary firing arc as well.

This is the only case where the arc has nothing to do with the weapon in question.

I strongly disagree. I would argue that the TLT has the EXACT same interaction with a primary arc that it does with a special arc. It doesn't need the arc to shoot at all. Their range of fire is not the same.

Despite their lack of dependence on each other, a TLT that is fired out of the primary arc, which it has nothing to do with, still meets the requirements of Tactician, therefore triggering the Tactician. This is exactly the functionality that the TLT has with the special arc. The TLT does not use your primary arc to fire, AT ALL, but Tactician still applies when you fire in that direction because the target is "inside your firing arc".

The TLT also does not use your special firing arc to fire AT ALL, exactly like with your primary arc, but when you fire in that direction the conditions for Tactician are met once again because the target is "inside your firing arc".

There is nothing to indicate that these two interactions would not function exactly the same. The fact that you may fire a primary weapon out one, but not the other, does not in anyway impact how TLTs and firing arcs "interact".

This is the only case where the arc has nothing to do with the weapon in question.

I strongly disagree. I would argue that the TLT has the EXACT same interaction with a primary arc that it does with a special arc. It doesn't need the arc to shoot at all. Their range of fire is not the same.

Despite their lack of dependence on each other, a TLT that is fired out of the primary arc, which it has nothing to do with, still meets the requirements of Tactician, therefore triggering the Tactician. This is exactly the functionality that the TLT has with the special arc. The TLT does not use your primary arc to fire, AT ALL, but Tactician still applies when you fire in that direction because the target is "inside your firing arc".

The TLT also does not use your special firing arc to fire AT ALL, exactly like with your primary arc, but when you fire in that direction the conditions for Tactician are met once again because the target is "inside your firing arc".

There is nothing to indicate that these two interactions would not function exactly the same. The fact that you may fire a primary weapon out one, but not the other, does not in anyway impact how TLTs and firing arcs "interact".

Have you read the wording on TLT? Apparently not.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/xwing-miniatures/images/c/cf/Twin-laser-turret-1-.png/revision/latest?cb=20150629163108

"Even against a ship outside your firing arc."

I'm boggled at the confusion as to whether the special firing arc is always considered a firing arc.

It's printed on the base. It has the word "firing arc" right there in the name, which the auxiliary arc precedent has established is the only thing you're looking for. There is no other precedent for firing arcs to be considered "inactive" just because the active ship cannot use it.

Be boggled. If you're running back stabber and come up against a ghost that has neither a torp nor docked phantom, there is absolutely no sensible reason why your pilot ability shouldn't apply. Looking forward to the clarification on this one.

Be boggled. If you're running back stabber and come up against a ghost that has neither a torp nor docked phantom, there is absolutely no sensible reason why your pilot ability shouldn't apply. Looking forward to the clarification on this one.

Looking at Backstabber's FAQ entry, this one seems very easy to solve. It says 'any of the printed arcs' and the VCX has two. Right.

There is no sensible reason why ruthlessness should work with a tractor beam either. This is not an RPG where that would be an argument.

In any case, the number of instances where the arc comes into play is small. It's mainly autothrusters and a few others. I feel that is pretty acceptable and not unbalanced. This does not need nerfing in the FAQ. Maybe a clarification.

Be boggled. If you're running back stabber and come up against a ghost that has neither a torp nor docked phantom, there is absolutely no sensible reason why your pilot ability shouldn't apply. Looking forward to the clarification on this one.

Someone's looking out the torpedo firing systems and seeing where you are. They work even if there's nothing loaded into them.

The arc on the Ghost is identical to the arc on the Firespray. It is printed in the same manner and the rules are phrased in the same manner. The difference, and why it is as special rather than an auxilary, is what can fire from it.

Wait, so if i make a Turret attack or primary weapon attack from the rear arc, the defender doesn't get autothrusters?

Unless they're at Range 3, no, they don't.

Be boggled. If you're running back stabber and come up against a ghost that has neither a torp nor docked phantom, there is absolutely no sensible reason why your pilot ability shouldn't apply. Looking forward to the clarification on this one.

I've got one. The game rules.

Backstabber doesn't trigger against an unarmed Gozanti if he's in its firing arc either.

The rear arc is NOT a firing arc unless you have a torpedo or ghost/phantom title. Nowhere does it say anything about a printed firing in the new faq or the autothrusters card. It states the "attackers" firing arc meaning an arc it can shoot out of. Once you shoot off the torpedo, that arc is also no longer active.

Find me one piece of rules text, anywhere in the game, that allows a firing arc to be turned on and off.

The firing arc as defined by the rules reference:

FIRING ARC
A ship’s primary firing arc is the area formed by
extending the firing arc lines printed on the front of
the ship’s token. A firing arc extends across the play
area. A ship is inside a firing arc if any part of its
base falls inside the area formed by extending the
firing-arc lines.
• A ship’s primary firing arc is used for all attacks,
including secondary weapon attacks, unless
specified otherwise.
• A ship’s auxiliary firing arc cannot be used for
secondary weapon attacks.

Even secondary weapons use the primary firing arc so for the purpose of firing arc and TLT or dorsal turret, the primary firing arc is the firing arc for the weapon.

Q: If a ship has a turret primary weapon (or is equipped with
a secondary weapon), is the ship considered to have a
360-degree firing arc?
A: No. Turret primary and secondary weapons allow a ship to ignore its
printed firing arcs. A ship’s firing arcs are always the printed, shaded arcs
on its ship token.

So, a Hot Shot Blaster that shoots someone in an Auxiliary Arc trigger's Autothrusters?

Also, I think you need to really, really pay attention to the second sentence of that FAQ answer.

So, a Hot Shot Blaster that shoots someone in an Auxiliary Arc trigger's Autothrusters?

Also, I think you need to really, really pay attention to the second sentence of that FAQ answer.

Yes but the rules reference clarifies what the firing arc is for the specific weapon.

In the FAQ, the Auxiliary Firing Arc on the firespray IS referenced as being a firing arc but there is no mention of the "Special Firing Arc".

Yes they are both printed firing arcs but the rules specifically say that your firing arc for tlt or other turret weapons(secondary weapons in general unless otherwise specified) is your primary firing arc.

There is an argument for both sides right now. I'm still waiting to hear from FFG on this.

I just fail to see why the argument against precedent is on equal footing with them doing something against precedent.

But, looking at how many people really expected the Bomb then SLAM from the article, I shouldn't be too surprised.

There is an argument for both sides right now. I'm still waiting to hear from FFG on this.

No there really isn't. There's just you refusing to accept the rules as written.

The FAQ says everything that needs to be said. "A ship’s firing arcs are always the printed, shaded arcs on its ship token."

There is nothing in the rules that says a arc is inactive if you don't have a weapon that can be used in that arc. The FAQ clearly states that an arc is what's printed on the ship token.

Plus by your logic that means if you fire the torpedo it's no longer a valid arc. So it's a arc until after you fire the torp...

Again there's not really two arguments here. There is you reading things into the rules that don't exist and us telling you you're wrong but you refusing to accept it.

Also you can't simply declare that precedence doesn't apply...

"Special Firing Arc" and "Auxiliary Firing Arc" ARE NOT the same types of arcs. "Auxiliary" do not allow secondary weapons to fire out of. "Secondary" allow torpedoes to be fired out of and primary weapons by special circumstances. Secondary arcs remain in place because it is a printed arc. Auxiliary arcs do not remain in place because the rules state it so.

"Special Firing Arc" and "Auxiliary Firing Arc" ARE NOT the same types of arcs. "Auxiliary" do not allow secondary weapons to fire out of. "Secondary" allow torpedoes to be fired out of and primary weapons by special circumstances. Secondary arcs remain in place because it is a printed arc. Auxiliary arcs do not remain in place because the rules state it so.

Citation required.

Because I posted the **** rules in the packet for Special Arc. Considering the size of the insert, I highly doubt I missed something.

"Special Firing Arc" and "Auxiliary Firing Arc" ARE NOT the same types of arcs.

Provide something to back up that claim please. Something in the rules that says they are not the same, or at least something that overrules the statement "A ship’s firing arcs are always the printed, shaded arcs on its ship token."

I suppose in a way you're right, they're not the same types of arcs, one can fire primary weapons the other can fire secondary weapons, or primary weapons in a given case... But that doesn't mean they don't exist when they can't be used.

Because there are few people trying to make this claim, but no one has backed it up with any sort of actual rule. For what it's worth, the same argument was made about the aux arc on the Firespray, and those people were also wrong.

Auxiliary arcs do not remain in place because the rules state it so.

Where exactly are you getting that? Because the FAQ clearly states otherwise.