Man I really want XX-9s to be good. But the problem is that by the time the effect triggers the target is likely dead or near dead anyway so it's not terribly relevant. They need to be worth like 4 points.

Its a great way of stopping contain from being used so you can still flip over a critical effect even if it's just 1.

Man I really want XX-9s to be good. But the problem is that by the time the effect triggers the target is likely dead or near dead anyway so it's not terribly relevant. They need to be worth like 4 points.

Its a great way of stopping contain from being used so you can still flip over a critical effect even if it's just 1.

Could someone put out the Dras signal?

Man I really want XX-9s to be good. But the problem is that by the time the effect triggers the target is likely dead or near dead anyway so it's not terribly relevant. They need to be worth like 4 points.

Its a great way of stopping contain from being used so you can still flip over a critical effect even if it's just 1.

Since you are now using the xx9 crit effect, and contain only staves off the default effect, wouldnt it still be 2? Never run the things so it hasnt come up

Could someone put out the Dras signal?

"Crit: The First Two Damage Cards Dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt face up."

Your enemy has to decide wether he will utilise Contain or Not before you Decide wether you activate XX-9 Turbolasers.

If your enemy spends the Contain Token, and only one damage gets through - you are only dealing one card. With Contain, that would be a face down, despite you having a Crit, as the default critical effect won't fire.

However, with XX-9 Turbolasers, the first two cards are dealt face up - even if only one is dealt, that still qualifies for "the first of potentially two"... It is not a Default Critical Effect, so Contain does not stop it. One face up card would be dealt, as only one damage got through.

That does not magically become 2 Damage just because of that critical effect. The only way that would happen is with Advanced Proton Torpedos - because that Crit becomes one immediately face up, and your 1 damage still got through, for a total of 2 damage cards (one face up, one face down).

XX-9s have the advantage of negating Contain Tokens at all ranges.

Sorry. I was trying (and failing) to sleep in after getting to bed at 1am because my kiddo was... my kiddo.

Ah I think I misread Iro's point and then miscommunicated my question, but in typical dras fashion you answered not only what was asked but what was intended to be asked. Thank you sir.

I have lots of xi7's. I pretty much only run them on ISD's and MC80's. I think the main effect of xi7's is to make sure that no one runs AP's, as it really makes the upgrade worthless whereas before it was almost the default upgrade for Big Ugly Frogs with Wings.

But, knowing how few people run AP's now, I tend to save the points for something else. Those large ships are already a big part of the budget and I'm more concerned, overall, about brace- damage done is still damage done and if it's on an adjacent arc, that's none too bad in my book (especially if I have fighters!). I'd much rather spend a further point on intel officers if my damage is high as it also nerfs the ubiquitous ECM's.

If anything, I think it'd be a bit more balanced if Xi7's were an "exhaust this card" effect so that they don't couple so well with GT's. The time when Xi7's are really punishing are mkIIB GT spam lists with ackbar flown by a competent opponent.

The problem here is not that you took XI7 to a multi-ship battle, but that your ships didn't all have them.

XI7's are all or nothing. You need to put them on every ship--or at least every ship you're out to deal damage with--or else take something else. Because if I'm facing a fleet with some XI7 and some not, I'm not burning those redirects on the attack with XI7 in it--I'm burning them on the ones without it so I actually get use out of that token.

I am fairly confident that XI7s on all those corvettes is not the most optimum turbolaser upgrade for any situation.

I don't disagree. You'll note I said either take them on everything or take them on nothing. In the case of your example, the obvious choice is take them on nothing. My point is not that you should have had them on the CR90's, but that you should not have taken them on the MC80, because it is wasteful to do so. Taking one XI7 in a fleet of several ships is a waste of the upgrade: you either build your fleet in such a way that all of the ships are XI7 platforms, or you don't put XI7 on anything. Generally speaking (before some pedant pops up to pick apart my greatly-simplified statement).

I'm a fan on XI7 on the high natural dice ships like the ISD, VSD, and MC80. Past that, it's a wash on effectiveness. I rather use the points for other things most times.

Don't agree on the must use xi7s on all your ships,as they are sub optimal on some. One Xi7 works very well if used with a large carrier supported by a bomber strike.

Take a MC 80 build activating a bomber wing then throwing 6 to 8 dice. The bombers are likely to knock off the shield facing you are targeting, unless the target is happy to use/ burn his redirects with abandon.

If he does not burn his redirects on the bombers he gets a massive xi7 powered hit in the unshielded face.

If he uses his redirects on the bombers to keep his shield up for the xi7 hit the none xi7 ships ( MC30s and corvettes) come along and chew him up......

That does not magically become 2 Damage just because of that critical effect. The only way that would happen is with Advanced Proton Torpedos - because that Crit becomes one immediately face up, and your 1 damage still got through, for a total of 2 damage cards (one face up, one face down).

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but in any case you can only activate one crit effect, so you either go with APT or with XX-9.

That does not magically become 2 Damage just because of that critical effect. The only way that would happen is with Advanced Proton Torpedos - because that Crit becomes one immediately face up, and your 1 damage still got through, for a total of 2 damage cards (one face up, one face down).

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but in any case you can only activate one crit effect, so you either go with APT or with XX-9.

Not a problem - that wasn't what I was saying, but let me try again.

Clarification as to my point: "The only way that 1 Critical Icon can become 2 Damage Cards is with APT"

Because if you're doing 1 Damage with XX9s, that damage card is face up. It doesn't become 2 damage cards face up.

APTs however, are 2 damage cards. One face up for the Critical Effect, and one for the point of damage the crit icon counts as.

It was mostly clarifying that "XX9s say the first 2 Cards dealt are dealt face up... It is not saying to Deal 2 Cards Face up in every circumstance."

That does not magically become 2 Damage just because of that critical effect. The only way that would happen is with Advanced Proton Torpedos - because that Crit becomes one immediately face up, and your 1 damage still got through, for a total of 2 damage cards (one face up, one face down).

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but in any case you can only activate one crit effect, so you either go with APT or with XX-9.

Not a problem - that wasn't what I was saying, but let me try again.

Clarification as to my point: "The only way that 1 Critical Icon can become 2 Damage Cards is with APT"

Because if you're doing 1 Damage with XX9s, that damage card is face up. It doesn't become 2 damage cards face up.

APTs however, are 2 damage cards. One face up for the Critical Effect, and one for the point of damage the crit icon counts as.

It was mostly clarifying that "XX9s say the first 2 Cards dealt are dealt face up... It is not saying to Deal 2 Cards Face up in every circumstance."

I would have them on everything if they did that......

I don't disagree. You'll note I said either take them on everything or take them on nothing. In the case of your example, the obvious choice is take them on nothing. My point is not that you should have had them on the CR90's, but that you should not have taken them on the MC80, because it is wasteful to do so. Taking one XI7 in a fleet of several ships is a waste of the upgrade: you either build your fleet in such a way that all of the ships are XI7 platforms, or you don't put XI7 on anything. Generally speaking (before some pedant pops up to pick apart my greatly-simplified statement).

All good. The scenarios i described was in response the the Original Poster who made a declarative statement of 'XI7s being the only turbolaser option as a no brainer'. I provided an example where it wasn't the most optimum upgrade to have and was leading into how XX-9s or Enhanced Armaments would have been better choices.

To reiterate what Drasnighta clarified.

Roll Dice --> Damage + Critical Effect --> Defense Tokens --> Activate XX-9s --> After applying damage from the pool if only 1 makes it to the hull, its flipped face up even if Contain was used.

To reiterate what Drasnighta clarified.

Roll Dice --> Damage -->Declare Defense Tokens -- Declare Critical effect> --Apply defense tokens> Activate XX-9s --> After applying damage from the pool if only 1 makes it to the hull, its flipped face up even if Contain was used.

I have yet to take XI-7s and I've had them used against me consistently. By the definition of "overpowered" doesn't that mean I should have lost all those games? They're good, but hardly broken. I'm just not scared of them at red range except on an Ackbar ship (and even then, I'm not that afraid because red dice are fickle bastards). You have to do at least 5 damage (baring a brace negating effect such as Intel Officer) for me to even really feel the impact. If that's happening, WHY THE HELL AM I IN THAT ARC?!

There is no doubt that they are good, but I'm guessing the same people that love XI-7s so much don't really have many squadrons or Nebs in their games. Mine almost always do. For the points, I prefer TRCs. Admittedly, they're usually on completely different ships. However, I always feel like TRCs are worth the points. I've yet to feel that way about XI-7s.

Personal feeling. If you dont put X17's on ALL your ships then they are not worth the money. If you do, then they are great VALUE for your buck.

The big question is how often do you kill a ship whilst it has lots of shields intact? Corvettes die easily, but big ships tend to be able to get full use out of their shields whether you have X17's or not, just because of how many shots you have to take.

Truthfully? I took out pretty much every ship with almost all shields intact. The only defense they had was to move shields, so if you want to say that, but that is still murdering a list because of XI-7's, and even so there is only so much you can move per turn with the engineering. But With Home One and Defiance Double, I took out an ISDII in one turn, with XI-7 if I'm throwing a possible damage amount of 14 (6 red dice and two blues for the Assault cruiser) after Home one already went, I am probably dropping at least 8 damage and locking out your Brace (which You may or may not have used ECM already because of the first onslaught). It happens more times than you may think. To the argument of Raiders or Neb B's, Raiders pop in one shot and Neb B's are also glassy, unless you build them defensively, and if you do that then you are hurting the offensive output.

Raiders don't have redirect, but it only has 6 health, and one brace. You lock out the brace and you either make a person reroll or cancel a die. If you have eight damage coming your way it won't matter.

Home One'ing the brace is powerful. I agree. That has little to do with X17's.

Last game i played, i played ISD I with Gunnery Team, Overload Pulse, X-17s and the Avenger Title in case the Overload Pulse did Trigger. I know that i should of probably tried it with ISD II rather then I, but I was just experimenting, and i was still dominating the battlefield any how. But with X-17s, I was taking Raiders down in one attack phase, my front arc would take the shields down and do massive hull damage, then I used the side to deal the final blow. Dealing with a Victory Class though, i believe it took two attack phases, and that was with the enemy using Admiral Motti.

Next match I'm for sure going to run ISD II with that load out. I'll be honest I was pretty worried going into that match, being out numbered. The rest of my load out was 2 Victory I's, both with ord teams, one with Expanded launchers and the other with rapid reload, again was just experimenting.

My dads load out was 2 Victory I's, 1 Gladiator and and 2 Raiders

I came out of that match without any losses, came close to losing my ISD though

You do know that Raiders don't have Redirect, right? So XI-7's net effect when shooting at a Raider is ... zero.

I was simply putting into perspective how much damage can be dished out in a signle ship activation, and how useful it can be when attacking other ships that due contain Redirect

I'm actually surprised by how little H9s are played (myself included!). They have a huge upside in stopping a brace and dealing all that juicy damage from that sweet ISD front arc.

I think they (H9s) will be included in many lists in the future with the new flotilla scatter.

I'm actually surprised by how little H9s are played (myself included!). They have a huge upside in stopping a brace and dealing all that juicy damage from that sweet ISD front arc.

I think they (H9s) will be included in many lists in the future with the new flotilla scatter.

I've considered them on a MC30 Torpedo Frigate if Home One isnt available.

The discussions of x17 vs htt was during wave 1 when pumping out 8+ damage was unlikely. Blocking braces is more important with higher damage output.

H9's could be viable on MC30s, but more so on the Torpedoes. The issue with H9's is that you have to roll high enough that blocking a brace actually DOES something. Roll 3 reds. Did you get all hits? Yay! Now change one to an Accuracy. Grats! You just spent 8 pts for the privilege of turning 3 hits into 2, where it you didn't, your shot may have been braced, turning your 3 hits into...2... At Red and Blue range the H9's start to pick up, as you MIGHT roll all hits/crits/blanks on your dice, but with enough blues you will probably get the ONE Accuracy you actually need. In fact, I usually roll too MANY accuracies with my blues, making SW7's the better (and cheaper) upgrade. The thing is fights at Blue range don't last long. One of those ships is getting destroyed. And once that fight is over, how likely are you to get back to blue range with another ship? If you are on a Victory, not likely at all. H9's are criminally over-costed. If they said "Spend a red die to change another die's facing to Accuracy" they would be worth it at 8 pts. The way they are currently worded, I would only start to consider them at 5pts, but 4 is probably a better spot for them.

Meanwhile, you only need to be pumping out 2 damage for XI7s to matter (three if they have a brace or you did not get an accuracy.) 2-3 is a much easier number to hit with consistency. It just gets better when you get closer, after having hammered that shield facing on the approach. XI7s are also great on Carriers, where the fighters will tear open a shield face and the carrier shot will be able to strike true.

Heavy Turbo Lasers also I think are over costed for what they do. You can brace or you can redirect, but not both. It means you don't need H9s and they cost the same (even further invalidating them.) The issue is that the amount of damage you have to do to make people need to brace AND redirect damage gets a bit ridiculous, and once again you are not doing that as often in a game as you need to be. XI7s, TRCs, these are useful all game (until a target has no shields or the shooter has no Evade, respectively.) HTLs I think work best in concert with XI7s. You fire off XI7 shots against the facing that your bruiser is aiming for to strip the shields, then the bruiser fires at an open face. Now is the time where they NEED redirects and braces, but even without accuracies, you just rendered their defenses meaningless. Unfortunately, that level of synergy is very, VERY difficult to get in this game due to the costs, as that many offensive upgrades is going to cost you ships (activations) or fighters, and you have to weigh for yourself if the combo is easy enough or multiplicative enough to be worth it.

This is a great discussion!

Ok, my contribution.

Arguing "overpowered" isn't really the issue - they are available to everyone. And sure, a range of other upgrades suit different applications- TLRCs on corvettes etc.

I err on the side of thinking that a rebalancing of Xi7s would be good for the game. Even if they redacted the previous FAQ reversal so that advanced projectors were a bit more effective. That would create some tension as you would have AP>Xi7/Intel>ECM>accuracy>AP. Ships would need a wider range of offensive and defensive strategies.

At the moment, once you have 5 or 6 dice in an attack Xi7s and Intell Officer are just such a ubiquitous combination.

Even better, making Xi7s similar to HTTs in that they restrict redirects to one unless redirect is the only defence token used.

But at the moment, Xi7s and a big dice pool absolutely carve anything that relies on redirects to live. Victory classes (which basically never get to brace) and Mc30s especially.

But then maybe that's a design intention, and Xi7s are there to reward you for bringing a large ship with massive firepower in an age where activation advantage is such a big thing.

So I'm not overly stressed either way.

I'm actually surprised by how little H9s are played (myself included!). They have a huge upside in stopping a brace and dealing all that juicy damage from that sweet ISD front arc.

I think they (H9s) will be included in many lists in the future with the new flotilla scatter.

I had my friend do a VSD 2 with Warlord and H9's. . . WOW!!! That was super effective!