Lore Silvan hero in The Drowned Ruins is Argalad

By Gizlivadi, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

The Lord of the Rings isn't a civilisation. It is a novel. A novel in which travelling over the sea is essentially a one-way ticket and otherwise forbidden by literal god-figures.

Passing over the sea, the call of the sea, the arrival of hope/doom by sea etc. are all strong recurring thematic elements in the narrative. To append a sea-faring adventure on treasure island to the IP is to reveal a complete lack of respect for the source material.

The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings are novels set in a civilization imagined by Tolkien to provide a background for his invented languages. The Lord of the Rings game is set in this civilization, and except for the saga expansions are explicitly not set in the novels. FFG also has a right to use material from the appendices, though sadly not the Silmarillion.

The one-way ticket you refer to is only relevant to completely crossing the sea to seek the undying lands (after they were removed from the circles of the world). There is no prohibition at all against traveling by boat in the sea, and we know from the text that the Corsairs (i.e. Pirates) of Umbar did so. We also know from the Council of Elrond that after Elrond said they could not send the ring over the sea (i.e. on a one way trip), Glorfindel counseled to "cast it into the deeps", Gandalf responded that "There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change." Both Galdor and Elrond add that Sauron would expect them to go that way -- clearly, a sailing to trip to "the deeps" was plausible.

Moving to the appendices we know that both elves and men sailed east as well as west before the fall of Numenor, and that the Numenoreans were particularly notable for their sea power. But even after the fall, the Corsairs were not the only ones to sail on the sea. Cirdan attempted to rescue Arvedui by ship, and in the shipwreck that followed he wrote "even the mariners of Cirdan were helpless", implying that the mariners were highly skilled, impossible if their sailing was confined to one-way trips overseas. The kingdom of Gondor was also naval-minded, Tarannon was the first of the ship kings who built navies, Earnil I built a great navy and took Umbar, which withstood a seige of many years "because of the sea-power of Gondor", and at Gondor's peak strength they ruled the coast all the way to Umbar, with the kings of Harad doing homage. In the civil war Castamir took the fleets and established the Corsairs of Umbar, but we know that the Corsairs were not the only one that subsequently sailed, because from then until Aragorn's time they were "a threat to its coastlands and all traffic on the sea", an odd description indeed if traffic on the sea was forbidden by the Valar and not practiced except for one-way elven trips.

In Telumehtar's time Gondor acquired sufficient naval strength to storm Umbar and kill Castamir's descendants, though it was soon lost again during the wainrider crisis. Against the witch-king, Gondor's army was sent north under Earnur with a mighty fleet, "so great in draught and many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled."

Between the Hobbit and the LOTR (i.e. the very time period of the game), Thorongil [Aragorn] was "a great leader of men, by land or by sea". His final action for Gondor was a raid on Umbar with a small fleet for a night attack, burning many ships and personally slaying the Captain of the Haven on the quays before withdrawing his fleet "with small loss". A night attack by ship requires substantial nautical skill, and losing ships in the retreat requires battle with ships.

We know also from "the fleet with black sails" that the ships of Umbar possessed sails as well as oars, and the free men of Pelargir using the Corsair fleet had sufficient skill to use the western wind to come quickly to the fields of Pellenor.

In fairness, after the fall of Numenor there's little evidence of sea traffic away from the coasts, but given the geography there's no practical reason to expect it -- there were no longer any accessible lands that required leaving the coast, excepting the elves' one-way trips. But that's a function of geography, not a Valar ban on the high seas or the lack of the ability to do so. Cirdan's mariners obviously had to be capable of high sea voyages, and Gondor and Umbar alike were descendants of a people which had routinely sailed across the high seas in both directions. We've already seen that Earnur's armada included ships of great draught, and that the Corsairs had masted ships with sails. At Pelargir the Corsairs main fleet included "fifty great ships", according to Gimli, to go with innumerable lesser ships.

Long story short, the world of the Lord of the Rings was absolutely, positively, peopled by those who had the skill and technology for high seas journeys, should they have a reason to do so. Even if you confine yourselves to the text of LOTR only, and there's no reason why you should, the sea-longing is restricted to elves, the one-way journeys are restricted to the elves, and the ban of the Valar only applies to crossing the sea completely, not traveling in it. Meanwhile, pirates (corsairs) are most certainly present, and have great masted ships that employ sails. Further, the Silmarillion says that after the destruction some Dunedain believed that its summit remained above the water as an island and some would even sail to try to find it. This is perfectly in line with the premise for the new cycle.

You are free not to like the theme of the new cycle, but please stop claiming it "reveals a complete lack of respect for the source material." It is firmly grounded in the source material, which has pirates, ocean-capable ships, sailing, and even legends of surviving bits of Numenor poking out of the water. Exploring the world of Middle Earth is supposed to be one of the reasons for the games existence, and I'm happy to see that the creators did not let some silly prejudice against pirates keep them from exploring an interesting part of Middle Earth.

Edited by dalestephenson

Its not disrespectful if everything ties in with the lore as close as possible...

we know for a fact that the corsairs of umbar are still a very real problem in the third age, hell Aragorn and co, the Grey Company and the Oathbreakers take out a fleet in the books we just don't get many details about it....

we also know that numenor sank but there are mountain peaks that survived.... there could very well be temples and ruins on those islands....

ooop was going to write more but the previous post just appeared and is far more informative and thought out than anything I would have written so basically the above post!

Cirdan returned from the other side. How "one-way" could the trip be?

dalestephenson, that was a mic drop for the ages.

Cirdan returned from the other side. How "one-way" could the trip be?

Cirdan never went to Valinor. None of the Teleri who went to Valinor left again as I recall, with the possible exception of the War of Wrath. While some who went to Valinor returned in the First Age, and Glorfindel returned presumably in the Second Age after his heroic sacrifice at the Fall of Gondolin, the trip is very clearly one-way by the time of the Third Age, with the exception of Gandalf's resurrection.

The more pertinent point however is that the trip to Valinor is only one of many possible voyages across the sea, as dalestephenson just explained at length.

If i remember correctly, the Telleri of Valinor did not take part on War of Wrath, only Noldor and some Vanyar (it is Vanyars only "trip" on middle earth after they left for Valinor during the year of the trees)

The Lord of the Rings isn't a civilisation. It is a novel. A novel in which travelling over the sea is essentially a one-way ticket and otherwise forbidden by literal god-figures.

Passing over the sea, the call of the sea, the arrival of hope/doom by sea etc. are all strong recurring thematic elements in the narrative. To append a sea-faring adventure on treasure island to the IP is to reveal a complete lack of respect for the source material.

You are free not to like the theme of the new cycle, but please stop claiming it "reveals a complete lack of respect for the source material." It is firmly grounded in the source material, which has pirates, ocean-capable ships, sailing, and even legends of surviving bits of Numenor poking out of the water. Exploring the world of Middle Earth is supposed to be one of the reasons for the games existence, and I'm happy to see that the creators did not let some silly prejudice against pirates keep them from exploring an interesting part of Middle Earth.

I think that everyone who has ever read "The Silmarillion", "Unfinished Tales" and "The Book of Lost Tales" will agree with you Dalestephenson ;)

I just want to add that there are also "The Western Isles" off the coast of Lindon. They are:

- Tol Himling ( also known as Himring ) - which was the realm of Maedhros, the eldest son of Fëanor during the First Age in Beleriand.

- Tol Fuin -( Isle of Night ) - It was originally the land of Taur-nu-Fuin ( lands full of dread, evil spirits and orcs who served Sauron during First Age ) but only it's highest parts survived destruction of Beleriand. It was mentioned that during the Second Age there used to be a small Numenorean colony but after the isle was abandoned.

- Tol Morwen - One of the few locations in Beleriand which was not drowned, it was the site of the Stone of the Hapless and the grave of Morwen Eledhwen. Mariners of Númenor and later Arnor visited it on their voyages to pay respect to the hero Túrin Turambar buried there.

My point is that we are still waiting for any news about two more adventure packs in the Dream-chaser cycle so I wouldn't be surprised if they used any of these Isles in their pack ^^

Edited by Aeargil

Wow... There is so much stuff going way over my head because I haven't read any of the books. The movies teach you so little in comparison.

Start with reading Sillmarillion , then Unfinished tales and then lost tales. You will discover a new world and some of the greates heroes in Tolkien world like Feanor, Turgon, Turin, Finrod, Beren, Luthien and my most loved one ... Fingolfin.

Also some great enemis that will make Smaug or Shelob to look like puppets

Edited by Nickpes

I take it no one else has noticed that Argalad means "without radiance"...

(Also, Fingolfin is a B.A.)

Yes...

Turgon, Fingolfin, Echtilion, Rog (only in lost tales) and Azaghal is some of my favouties. Oh, and Voronwe of course.

Read the Silmarillin! It´s great!

You are free not to like the theme of the new cycle, but please stop claiming it "reveals a complete lack of respect for the source material." It is firmly grounded in the source material, which has pirates, ocean-capable ships, sailing, and even legends of surviving bits of Numenor poking out of the water. Exploring the world of Middle Earth is supposed to be one of the reasons for the games existence, and I'm happy to see that the creators did not let some silly prejudice against pirates keep them from exploring an interesting part of Middle Earth.

And yes -- I have read the Silmarillion and all those subsequent canonical works. But I guess the maritime stuff didn't stick with me excepting Arvedui's loss in the Ice Bay of Forochel. Thank you very much for compiling that information. Well done!

Edited by Network57

Yes...

Turgon, Fingolfin, Echtilion, Rog (only in lost tales) and Azaghal is some of my favouties. Oh, and Voronwe of course.

Read the Silmarillin! It´s great!

I love Rog and Ecthelion too, as well as Tuor

Fetish ****, you know? I like to bind, I like to be bound...

Wow, that's some strange-ass ability over there. Does he reduces the enemy's threat by his attack and discards the enemy if it's threat reaches 0? Seems too crazy to be true. Or he has really low base attack. Looks more like he deals damage to that enemy if it's threat is reduced to 0.

never noticed this always sunny reference till now!

Well, at least someone noticed :D

@PocketWraith: I think Thingol (Elwe?) is the only one who had seen Valinor and returned (except for the Noldor who came back).
He set out to lead the elves (together with Finwe and 1 other whose names escape me) but he got lost along the way and fell in love with Melian, the Maia ....

Man, I think I'll go read the Silmarillion for the x-th time.

Cirdan vowed to keep the Havens there so that any Elf could always sail west. I'm not sure but I recall he even wants to leave on the last ship west.

If I remember well, Thingol was one of the ambassadors that went to Valinor, saw what it was like and returned to convinced the other elves to travel there.

When the migration started he was leading a large group of Teleri who went on a slow pace and lost Tol Eressea and eventually decided to stay in Beleriad than wait for it again to return to carry them

Where are new pack spoilers?

By the way, I had that really stupid dream. In my dream, a neutral version of Aragorn got released, he had 3wp,4atk,2def and 5health, and there were five resource icons printed IN HIS TEXT BOX, fifth one being NEUTRAL :D

One of the weirdest dreams I had prolly.

Edited by John Constantine

Neutral Aragorn's resources can be used to pay for spirit/Lore events, leadership allies, tactics weapons and armor, and Mounts of any sphere.

Finally got to spend some time in The Drowned Ruins. An interesting quest that encourages turtling and lots of allies. And lots of willpower. I did challenge me before I realized that because you start with so much threat in the staging area and your tendency is to try to gain control of the staging area ASAP. Then you realize that's not really possible. So I think that there is something of a 'trick' to this one and once you realize it the difficulty drops. Still I am all for the two sided locations which definitely add an interesting twist.

Where is the bakcstory of Argalad? No one missed it???