Hi All, I'm working on developing a medium length one-shot mission for my normal play group. I want either the middle or final boss to be a Khornate Berzerker from the World Eaters. I was looking at stats from a Deathwatch Marine to get a comparison and I think it would work okay as a baseline. My question is, has anyone statted out CSMs before, if so how did they work in your campaign? Also, what stats do you think a Khornate Berzerker should have?

See Black Crusade. They should be there. As far as the Unnaturals, change the x2 to +4, because that's what they are for SMs and CSMs from Black Crusade on.

Funnily enough Black Crusade barely has any CSM statlines. I would rather recommend the Enemies splatbook from Only War.

Also, DW - Mark of the Xenos has Khorne Berzerkers on page 115.

I made those 2 profiles not so long ago:

Word Bearer: http://www.rollforheresy.net/bestiary/word-bearers-traitor-marine

Khorne Berserker: http://www.rollforheresy.net/bestiary/khorne-berzerker

There are plenty other things on this website! Take a look!

See Black Crusade. They should be there. As far as the Unnaturals, change the x2 to +3, because that's what they are for SMs and CSMs from Black Crusade on.

For unnatural characteristics for marines x2 changed to +4 from Black Crusade on. Don't know where your getting +3 from.

I made those 2 profiles not so long ago:

Word Bearer: http://www.rollforheresy.net/bestiary/word-bearers-traitor-marine

Khorne Berserker: http://www.rollforheresy.net/bestiary/khorne-berzerker

There are plenty other things on this website! Take a look!

Not-a-chance. Your players are gonna get wasted in no time. CSM arent best npcs for DH2, but if you have to use them forget DW nad BC. Use Only War CSM

I'm gonna second the opinion of using Deathwatch: Mark of the Xenos. It has profiles for several varieties of Chaos Space Marine, including: Khorne Berserkers, CSM Sorcerers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Obliterators and Possessed Chaos Space Marines.

Dude, this book is balanced for Space Marine player characters.

@ Skarsnik38

Twas a typo kemosabe

Dude, this book is balanced for Space Marine player characters.

Looking at the Ork profiles, and the Tyranid Lictor and Genestealer profiles there is not a significant difference between Mark of the Xenos vs DH1's "Creature's Anathema".

Running by that basis of comparison, the CSM profiles should be about right as well, with only minor tweaks needed.

Dude, this book is balanced for Space Marine player characters.

Well, fighting Space Marines, except in some special concepts, is never really balanced for player characters anyway.

Well, it is.

Well, it is.

I fail to see the problem though, when, at least based on other individuals in the book, they are more or less comparable to their DH1 counterparts. Ie. If an Ork Boy is approximately the same in Deathwatch as it is in DH, and a Lictor is approximately the same in Deathwatch as it is in DH, and a Genestealer is approximately the same in Deathwatch as it is in DH, then it stands to reason a CSM would be approximately the same in Deathwatch as it is in DH. Tweak their characteristics up a point or two, to represent you being mere humans fighting a Space Marine, and it should suffice.

A Khorne Berserker from DW will decimate an unprepared DH party, possibly without even being scratched in the process. Which is as it should be.

Not if you consider that DH1 was the first rpg system of the series and one with the most mistakes and least balanced.

Not if you consider that DH1 was the first rpg system of the series and one with the most mistakes and least balanced.

Are you being serious right now? Or do I need to remind you of the absolute atrocities that are the NPC statlines for DH 2nd ed. PDF with more skill than veteran guardsmen? Each Tech-Priest armed with an Inferno Pistol? Or how about your generic street vendor that rolls Commerce better than a Merchant Magnate or Seneschal.

DH 1st was a rough system sure, but compared to the train wreck of 2nd Ed its a gleaming edifice of game design.

Are you being serious right now? Or do I need to remind you of the absolute atrocities that are the NPC statlines for DH 2nd ed. PDF with more skill than veteran guardsmen? Each Tech-Priest armed with an Inferno Pistol? Or how about your generic street vendor that rolls Commerce better than a Merchant Magnate or Seneschal.

DH 1st was a rough system sure, but compared to the train wreck of 2nd Ed its a gleaming edifice of game design.

Also the fact that a ******* Grey Knight has a threat level of 39, meaning a war band of 4 5000xp acolytes should be able to take one on RAW.

Not if you consider that DH1 was the first rpg system of the series and one with the most mistakes and least balanced.

Are you being serious right now? Or do I need to remind you of the absolute atrocities that are the NPC statlines for DH 2nd ed. PDF with more skill than veteran guardsmen? Each Tech-Priest armed with an Inferno Pistol? Or how about your generic street vendor that rolls Commerce better than a Merchant Magnate or Seneschal.

DH 1st was a rough system sure, but compared to the train wreck of 2nd Ed its a gleaming edifice of game design.

If you think that then I've got a bridge to sell you. The whole point of NPC statlines is to provide interaction with the PCs. It's like graphics rendering - you only need to actually process what the player sees, and what the player is most likely to see. So I'm not terribly worried about someone with WS or BS in the 40s when they're about to provide a challenge. Or that merchant with Commerce at a TN of 55, who will provide a challenge for the group's quartermaster who's got Commerce at a TN of 75 at chargen. (This is totally possible and not terribly difficult, by the way.) And those Tech-Priests with Inferno Pistols? Outrun them (Agility bonus of 3), grapple them (at which point they can't use anything but punches), or just focus your fire on them (because they can't dodge). But above all, vary things. Several of those Tech-Priests aren't terribly interesting for the party to face (because the party will run and/or snipe while the Tech-Priests fail to close), but one Tech-Priest and several servitors of various types offers some questions for the players.

Btw's, I played in this game. We were all given 5k experience, 2 more scarce requisitions than normal and a single rare. Additionally when the game started we were each given a NU item from the Inquisitors armory.

We killed the CSM, but only barely. Two of us were reduced into the high negatives, I myself had to burn a fate point. The other guy got killed from slightly unrelated reasons after the fight. I will point out that he was wearing heavy power armor.

The only reason we took him down was because our Dual wielder (The guy in the power armor) managed to force him to use all his reactions on counter attacking.

At that point one of our team charged in with a Daemon weapon we managed to construct (because we're cool) and knocked his health down from around half all the way to -9.

Considering the power levels we were bringing to the table, and how close the fight was, I would say that the power of the CSM felt like the right balance between the fluff and the crunch. Realistically, veteran Malleus Acolytes given special and unique gear from an Inquisitor really would go up against a CSM with a 50/50 shot, and that's more or less what happened.

Not if you consider that DH1 was the first rpg system of the series and one with the most mistakes and least balanced.

Are you being serious right now? Or do I need to remind you of the absolute atrocities that are the NPC statlines for DH 2nd ed. PDF with more skill than veteran guardsmen? Each Tech-Priest armed with an Inferno Pistol? Or how about your generic street vendor that rolls Commerce better than a Merchant Magnate or Seneschal.

DH 1st was a rough system sure, but compared to the train wreck of 2nd Ed its a gleaming edifice of game design.

Merchant Magnate can make PC re-roll any roll during conversation. Which is better than higher Commerce, because it affects many other skills too. And is frickin powerful. This is fucki*g Fate Point nullifier.

Tech priest is armed with inferno pistol and with BS of 35. With 10m range it means that most of the times he'll have 35% chance to hit. Combine it with PC's dodge skill with chance to dodge of 45% and there you have it: mere chance that techpriest hits with this weapon is 35% x (100%-55%) = 19%. That means that only one per five shots hits. There's 50% chance that techpriest won't hit during first 3 turns - he might be killed even before he deals any damage. And that's with PC's doing nothing except dodges. No smoke screens, no tactics, no anything.

As to PDF and Guardsman skills: what's the problem with that? How many skills would single PDF use during a single encounter? Would you have PDF climb, dodge, treat medically, drive a vehicle or tinker with cogitators in one encounter? No? I thought so. That's why it doesn't matter how many skills character has if it doesn't use it.

Are you being serious right now? Or do I need to remind you of the absolute atrocities that are the NPC statlines for DH 2nd ed. PDF with more skill than veteran guardsmen? Each Tech-Priest armed with an Inferno Pistol? Or how about your generic street vendor that rolls Commerce better than a Merchant Magnate or Seneschal.

DH 1st was a rough system sure, but compared to the train wreck of 2nd Ed its a gleaming edifice of game design.

Also the fact that a ******* Grey Knight has a threat level of 39, meaning a war band of 4 5000xp acolytes should be able to take one on RAW.

No, it takes roughly 4 PC's with over 4500xp to take down Grey Knight. What's wrong with that?

Quite a bit, imho. Granted, I'm one of those guys who likes the idea of Space Marines being one-man armies in the right circumstances (my primary Space Marine novel experiences being ones like Assault on Bleackreach), but it should take CONSIDERABLY more than that to deal with a Space Marine, unless you're toting around explicitly anti-Space Marine gear, with time to set-up beforehand. your more "standard" equipment layouts for an Acolyte should have a group get slaughtered in that instance, imho.

About the Word Bearer I wrote...my players got against one 2 games ago.

They are about 9000xp and not really equipped to fight one. I made the marine act the most hardcore possible.

He killed one player, but was killed without wounding any other. I didn't run the maths against 4500xp characters, but I think that pretty much looks like what was described here.

Also the fact that a ******* Grey Knight has a threat level of 39, meaning a war band of 4 5000xp acolytes should be able to take one on RAW.

No, it takes roughly 4 PC's with over 4500xp to take down Grey Knight. What's wrong with that?

Let's start with it's damage output shall we? In melee it has Swift Attack with it's Nemesis Force Halberd, which is a force weapon that deals at base 1d10+21 Pen 4. Now let's give him hammerhand, which is part of his base stat block, so increase the base damage to 1d10+25 Pen 4. Don't forget to add tearing. Now for the force aspect. Our Grey Knight should handily win the focus power test to proc Force, which due to his unnatural willpower means he will add a minimum of 3d10 damage which IGNORES toughness and armor. Yep straight damage. I'll go ahead and assume minimum damage on absolutely everything to demonstrate why this is insane. 26 Pen 4, plus another 3 ignoring toughness and armor. Our PC has 4 TB and 6 Armor and 14 wounds. The first hit of his swift attack, we'll be generous and say only one hits. 26 Pen 4 versus 10(4) so the first hit takes our PC to -6 wounds, add on the extra 3 from force bonus and blam dead PC.

Secondly lets consider that the Grey Knight has a 22 Armor, with a Best Quality force field (Rating 35). Unless the players are all packing maximal setting plasma weapons they are very unlikely to do damage to the marine through it's armor.

When you consider the ludicrous damage output, and the extremely good defense of the Grey Knight it becomes obvious that they should be well beyond the scope of a group of 4 4500xp players.

I honestly just skip the 'Threat' number; it's not an accurate assessment in my mind, I just do more careful calculations.

Terminator Armor by the book is... 14? 22 -4 Toughness, -4 Unnatural Toughness. So that's the maximum penetrated by AP.

Say my group (15,000 experience) was fighting a Gray Knight in full combat kit for whatever reason (one PC is very neurotic about stolen kills). One guy (Arbites Desperado) uses Maximal Plasma Pistols (to alternate fire and keep a shot in hand at all times), another (Outcast Seeker) has a Melta-Gun and Webber, next (Outcast Warrior) has paired Power Swords, fourth (Mechanicus Chiurgeon) has an Omnissian Axe and finally we've got the last dude of the party (Imperial Guard Assassin) with a long-las and probably a missile launcher. This assumes no-one is packing their vehicle-scale weapons into the fight (so no autocannons, lascannons, etc.).

Plasma Pistols (with Maximal and Mighty Shot) are doing 2d10+9 E with 8 Penetration. So, assuming the field doesn't take away his hits, he'll average about 19 damage against the 22 Armor, reduced to 14. 5 damage per hit.

Webber has a 35% chance of holding a Terminator. That's actually decent if he can try and stay out of range and keep the guy held up.

Melta-Gun is 2d10+10 with 12 Armor Pen. 20 Damage average versus 10 Armor, 10 Damage a hit.

Power Swords is 1d10+5, +3 Crushing Blow, +1 Quality, +4 Strength, -5AP. 18 damage on average, versus 17 Armor after Pen. Lightning Attack, Two Weapon Wielder/Master, there's a good number of hits in there. They might have an AP improver talent as well, we haven't played recently. 1 Damage per hit, LOTS of hits.

Omnissian Axe is 2d10+4+5 Strength due to Augmetics. 19, 6 Pen. 3 Damage per hit.

Long-Las is 3d10+7 (Mighty Shot), 4 Pen, 4 Felling with a Hotshot Charge Pack. There's almost no chance of falling short of the degrees needed. 22, 8 Pen. 8 Damage per hit.

Missile Launcher is 3d10+8, 8 Pen. 23, 8 Pen. 9 Damage per hit, with a -30 Toughness test or be Stunned on the part of the Grey Knight.

Assuming everyone hits with all their attacks in a turn, an average damage roll for everyone actually tips a Grey Knight into the criticals. With five to eight hits going his way a round, the shield will account for just shy of two-fifths. My group, fighting a single Grey Knight, has a decent chance of killing them in 4 rounds if all weapons can be brought to bear. That doesn't factor in Psychic powers or kills/incapacitations cutting their rate of fire. That also doesn't factor in that my group would never encounter an enemy Space Marine, Terminator or not, alone. The power-sword wielder would be parrying pretty well, even though I'd be applying some immense penalties for the strength disparity. People getting shot at better take cover.

Say my group (15,000 experience)

There's a colossal difference between a 15,000 XP group fighting a single Gray Knight, and a 5,000 XP group fighting a Gray Knight.