Now sci-fi in general has always had artificial life as a standard trope, with all the moral issues that come with it. From Asimov's three laws (which, amusingly, aren't a thing in the SW universe!) to Blade Runner, and modern films like 'AI', 'I, Robot', 'Chappie', 'Wall-E' and 'Deus Machina'. Mass Effect made it a core of their game, and the moral issues that swirled about it between the Reapers and the Geth.

I'm never really sure why SW shied away from what seems an obvious sci-fi trope (but then the movies aren't really about difficult choices and mostly keep things simple). ...

Yes, it is a sci-fi trope! Robots and androids are living, thinking beings and that is that. Though the reason Star Wars does not touch upon it is because this is Science Fantasy and it is not a focus point in the stories. In Science Fantasy and many Space Operas, aliens just play the roles as exotic cultures, like elves or dwarves would in classic High Fantasy. In Battlestar Galactica, AI is an actual theme and it becomes a focus in Star Trek too, with Data and his character exploration.

In Star Wars, droids are just another supressed species that few care about or that has a very defined role. Most are servants, mascots or pets, but then you have those who break free and do their own thing, like 4-LOM.

But Star Wars isn`t that deep, really, it has a dark/light good/evil reality where the Good guys can have a constructed army of clone troopers that all basically are slaves from birth. Star Wars is what it is and we can`t overthink it....

Unless... Star Wars has grown so much and isn`t just one or a few mixed genres anymore. It is a huge thing that belongs to all of us and can be anything we want it to be. Star Wars isn`t just what writers and creators make it anymore, it is what all of us, the fans make it. The Galaxy is enormous in so many ways.

Ugh. The "birth" of the reader does not require the "death" of the author. The author's intentions are a legitimate part of considering a work, and when the reader's interpretation of a work varies wildly from the author's intention, then one must look at why that is -- is the reader lacking context, did the author fail in his effort, etc -- and not simply dismiss the author as meaningless.

Effing postmodernism...

Ugh. The "birth" of the reader does not require the "death" of the author. The author's intentions are a legitimate part of considering a work, and when the reader's interpretation of a work varies wildly from the author's intention, then one must look at why that is -- is the reader lacking context, did the author fail in his effort, etc -- and not simply dismiss the author as meaningless.

Effing postmodernism...

Ugh. The "birth" of the reader does not require the "death" of the author. The author's intentions are a legitimate part of considering a work, and when the reader's interpretation of a work varies wildly from the author's intention, then one must look at why that is -- is the reader lacking context, did the author fail in his effort, etc -- and not simply dismiss the author as meaningless.

Effing postmodernism...

It just means that everyone will imagine and Read into it differently, based on individual imagination and references. . The author can't force that.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the guy you're quoting flat-out said that once a work is finished, the author, his intent, his context, everything, is entirely meaningless.

Ugh. The "birth" of the reader does not require the "death" of the author. The author's intentions are a legitimate part of considering a work, and when the reader's interpretation of a work varies wildly from the author's intention, then one must look at why that is -- is the reader lacking context, did the author fail in his effort, etc -- and not simply dismiss the author as meaningless.

Effing postmodernism...

It just means that everyone will imagine and Read into it differently, based on individual imagination and references. . The author can't force that.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the guy you're quoting flat-out said that once a work is finished, the author, his intent, his context, everything, is entirely meaningless.

Ugh. The "birth" of the reader does not require the "death" of the author. The author's intentions are a legitimate part of considering a work, and when the reader's interpretation of a work varies wildly from the author's intention, then one must look at why that is -- is the reader lacking context, did the author fail in his effort, etc -- and not simply dismiss the author as meaningless.

Effing postmodernism...

It just means that everyone will imagine and Read into it differently, based on individual imagination and references. . The author can't force that.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the guy you're quoting flat-out said that once a work is finished, the author, his intent, his context, everything, is entirely meaningless.

The book, movie or art gets whatever meaning the reader/viewer/watcher gives it or understands from it. Just like you interpret that quote like you do. The writers or artist might have a message but you are leftist with your reaction and thought after watching or Read ing it. All fana will have their own reaction to or interpretation of Fictional worlds and their own mental picture. The reader or viewer takes over where the world where the writer leaves it. Fiction only exist in our head. The world in a book only exist because someone Read it. I know What it means, it was part of my studies. It is literature theory and philosophy and makes us appreciate and understand the function and meaning of stories and literature better and reflect on it. Of course the author matter, We all get that, but the stories only exist because we let them, We react to them and imagine them, and noone will imagine them exactly the same. You are the reader and for your world to exist, the author has to let it go.

Like I said... effing postmodernism. There's no interpretation involved in reading his statement that the author does not matter at all.

This is not an entirely subjective matter. There's a line where the reader's interpretation stops being based on what's actually in the work, and becomes a figment purely of the reader's imagination. It's also possible for the author to have failed to present the world that was in his own head in a way that conveyed it effectively.

To say that the author doesn't matter at all, is to say in effect that every person can have their own entirely subjective understanding of every word in the language, and that if the reader believes that the author's reference to apples refers to blue fuzzy mammalian creatures, then the reader has failed, not the author. The purpose of language is to communicate via a mutual framework.

Anyway... back to the droids.

Don't let's get bogged down in a discussion of critical theory. It's not really helpful for this discussion and is liable to bore anyone without a four year degree in the humanities to tears. Some players might approach droids in their games based on the conventions of the space opera genre and what we see in the movies. Others might try to extrapolate and delve into the implications of a purpose-built slave race. Both are valid approaches, and worth discussing in this thread. Neither needs to be justified using academic theories.

In episode 2 the battle droids that rolled off the assembly line seemed pretty self aware to me. Lots of "uh-oh", and such. Granted they're designed to be expendible soldiers so there's very little concept of self preservation, but they do have enough of a personality for me to assume that they would roll off the line with some self awareness.

Also, I consider droid brains to all be mechanical copies of a "developed" droid brain. As in the take a basic version, train it to walk, talk, fight, etc to their baseline standard. Then they essentially copy and mass produce it.

The thing is that B1 battle Droid had remote processors a central computer where the CPUs resided... I imagine that the central computers /Droid brains were active for some time and cycle through several Droid bodies as the expendable "hosts" are destroyed and they get assigned new ones, so calling newly activated Droids self aware from the get go based on B1 battle Droid is not in my opinion a strong argument

Wasn't that just for S1 though? I recall that, due to the massive defeat at Naboo, the CIS army switched to independent droids that had their own processors. That way they wouldn't loose complete armies if a ship was destroyed.

If they did that's news to me, and IIRC the beginner box adventure (or follow up adventure) says something about Teemo modifying the design to use independent processor to prevent that

They did. It eliminated the major weakness of needing a command ship... If they hadn't following the Battle of Naboo, they'd have deserved the ass-kicking they got.

Looking on Wookieepedia I think that got wiped from EU canon into the legends category

Just watch clone wars - they're autonomous units in the series, despite the same externals.

So when can we expect the Droid Lives Matter movement to show up?

So when can we expect the Droid Lives Matter movement to show up?

It's already a thing in my games. The player has even used excerpts of MLK speeches.

Droids rights are a thing if you want them to be. Or handwave it like the movies do. I specifically wanted to cover new ground and the stuff the movies didn't.

I agree with Rodian Clone about the 'death of the author' as it pertains to Star Wars. Whatever Lucas or Abrams or whoever matters absolutely nothing to me. I genuinely couldn't care less. I'll take whatever is there - stormtroopers, death stars, wookiees, whatever - and do with them whatever I see fit.

It comes with being a role-player over a movie fan, I think. I've never cared less what Gary Gygax thought D&D should be either, or what Ed Greenwood wanted for the Realms.

As I've said before, I miss the early days when Star Wars felt like ours and not theirs. The FFG game is quite canon-lite, so it's very easy for us to make of it whatever we want.

As I've said before, I miss the early days when Star Wars felt like ours and not theirs. The FFG game is quite canon-lite, so it's very easy for us to make of it whatever we want.

Are you talking about the movies when you say that? Because if so, to be fair, it's never been ours, and has always been theirs. Fans don't have proprietary rights over the thing they enjoy. If you're talking about the game lines, then ok fine, as those are designed to be open ended and you can change what you want.

In episode 2 the battle droids that rolled off the assembly line seemed pretty self aware to me. Lots of "uh-oh", and such. Granted they're designed to be expendible soldiers so there's very little concept of self preservation, but they do have enough of a personality for me to assume that they would roll off the line with some self awareness.

Also, I consider droid brains to all be mechanical copies of a "developed" droid brain. As in the take a basic version, train it to walk, talk, fight, etc to their baseline standard. Then they essentially copy and mass produce it.

The thing is that B1 battle Droid had remote processors a central computer where the CPUs resided... I imagine that the central computers /Droid brains were active for some time and cycle through several Droid bodies as the expendable "hosts" are destroyed and they get assigned new ones, so calling newly activated Droids self aware from the get go based on B1 battle Droid is not in my opinion a strong argument

Wasn't that just for S1 though? I recall that, due to the massive defeat at Naboo, the CIS army switched to independent droids that had their own processors. That way they wouldn't loose complete armies if a ship was destroyed.

If they did that's news to me, and IIRC the beginner box adventure (or follow up adventure) says something about Teemo modifying the design to use independent processor to prevent that

They did. It eliminated the major weakness of needing a command ship... If they hadn't following the Battle of Naboo, they'd have deserved the ass-kicking they got.

Looking on Wookieepedia I think that got wiped from EU canon into the legends category

It was in clone wars. Dont know if thats canon or not. But I dont care about that anyway, because I dont let others decide my fantasy. I pick the best from canon and "EU" and live happily with Xg-1 Gunboats and Thrawn.

A good view on droids in Star Wars can be found here:

http://hellogiggles.com/dark-theory-droids-star-wars/

I myself are playing a defect IT-O (someone tried to install medical software on it, because there was no money to replace the doctor in the imperial facility and that moral subroutines didnt worked well with the Torture package 2.3) unit that was dicarded by the Imperium and somehow got lost. He is still property of the Imperium.

So far I am lucky that the other PCs dont try to claim me. They accept my advice, but I am also the "murder-medical scientist" of the group and the smartest (by stats). I was however already stolen and restrained.

But Star Wars isn`t that deep, really, it has a dark/light good/evil reality where the Good guys can have a constructed army of clone troopers that all basically are slaves from birth. Star Wars is what it is and we can`t overthink it....

Actually the whole "Hey, lets use cloned slaves to do our dying for us" thing was one of the many ways that the movies showed the Jedi Order as irredeemably broken. That was kind of the whole point of that.

But Star Wars isn`t that deep, really, it has a dark/light good/evil reality where the Good guys can have a constructed army of clone troopers that all basically are slaves from birth. Star Wars is what it is and we can`t overthink it....

Actually the whole "Hey, lets use cloned slaves to do our dying for us" thing was one of the many ways that the movies showed the Jedi Order as irredeemably broken. That was kind of the whole point of that.

I didn't get an "irredeemably broken" vibe in the prequels. It felt more like "Well, we have a huge robot army coming, we have to do something to try and save the Republic, and there just happens to be this clone army in place."

Side note on that. Did they ever elaborate on who actually started the clone project on the planet? I remember them mentioning a Jedi by name, but as best as I can recall, they never went into further detail on that. Was that Jedi ever seen? Was he just a false persona for the Emperor? Was he some fallen Jedi? 'Cause that whole "Oh we just happen to have this army sitting here, commissioned by a Jedi" seemed incredibly contrived, and never actually explained at all. It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved away how they showed up, even though the reason he gave us is complete and utter nonsense.

Side note on that. Did they ever elaborate on who actually started the clone project on the planet? I remember them mentioning a Jedi by name, but as best as I can recall, they never went into further detail on that. Was that Jedi ever seen? Was he just a false persona for the Emperor? Was he some fallen Jedi? 'Cause that whole "Oh we just happen to have this army sitting here, commissioned by a Jedi" seemed incredibly contrived, and never actually explained at all. It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved away how they showed up, even though the reason he gave us is complete and utter nonsense.

The Grand Army of the Republic was originally conceived by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, who ultimately foresaw the galaxy becoming consumed in war. Despite his removal from the ranks of the Jedi High Council, whose other members rejected his claims, Sifo-Dyas contacted the planet Kamino. The Kaminoans, a species that specialized in the science of cloning, were under the impression that Sifo-Dyas represented the interests of the council. In truth, their communication was kept secret. Unaware of this deception, the Kaminoan cloners accepted the Jedi's commission to create a clone army for the Republic.^[8]

Sifo-Dyas did not live to witness the completion of his army. An unwitting pawn of the Sith, Sifo-Dyas was murdered by the Pyke Syndicate^[8] at the behest of Darth Tyranus^[9]—once known as Jedi Master Dooku, the fallen Jedi turned to the dark side of the Force and became apprenticed to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious.^[10] After the death of Sifo-Dyas, the Sith secretly took over the project^[8] and selected the human bounty hunter Jango Fett to serve as the genetic template of the clone army.^[11]

In addition to growth acceleration and behavioral modification, an inorganic bio-chip was installed into the brain of every clone trooper at the early stage of their development. The official reason behind the implant was to ensure that the clones would be more docile than their aggressive genetic donor.^[12] The true reason—as Prime Minister Lama Su and Nala Se understood it—was to ensure that the clones would terminate renegade Jedi in accordance with Protocol 66. Unknown even to the Kaminoans,^[13] the bio-chips were manufactured for the sole purpose of forcing the clones to annihilate the entire Jedi Order so that the Sith could ultimately reclaim control over the galaxy.^[14]

As I've said before, I miss the early days when Star Wars felt like ours and not theirs. The FFG game is quite canon-lite, so it's very easy for us to make of it whatever we want.

Are you talking about the movies when you say that? Because if so, to be fair, it's never been ours, and has always been theirs. Fans don't have proprietary rights over the thing they enjoy. If you're talking about the game lines, then ok fine, as those are designed to be open ended and you can change what you want.

I'm talking about the WEG version and the way that it essentially helped design large amounts of the EU, including naming species like twi'leks and rodians.

The whole of the fandom felt up for grabs then, it felt like such a creative frontier.

Side note on that. Did they ever elaborate on who actually started the clone project on the planet? I remember them mentioning a Jedi by name, but as best as I can recall, they never went into further detail on that. Was that Jedi ever seen? Was he just a false persona for the Emperor? Was he some fallen Jedi? 'Cause that whole "Oh we just happen to have this army sitting here, commissioned by a Jedi" seemed incredibly contrived, and never actually explained at all. It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved away how they showed up, even though the reason he gave us is complete and utter nonsense.

The Grand Army of the Republic was originally conceived by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, who ultimately foresaw the galaxy becoming consumed in war. Despite his removal from the ranks of the Jedi High Council, whose other members rejected his claims, Sifo-Dyas contacted the planet Kamino. The Kaminoans, a species that specialized in the science of cloning, were under the impression that Sifo-Dyas represented the interests of the council. In truth, their communication was kept secret. Unaware of this deception, the Kaminoan cloners accepted the Jedi's commission to create a clone army for the Republic.^[8]

Sifo-Dyas did not live to witness the completion of his army. An unwitting pawn of the Sith, Sifo-Dyas was murdered by the Pyke Syndicate^[8] at the behest of Darth Tyranus^[9]—once known as Jedi Master Dooku, the fallen Jedi turned to the dark side of the Force and became apprenticed to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious.^[10] After the death of Sifo-Dyas, the Sith secretly took over the project^[8] and selected the human bounty hunter Jango Fett to serve as the genetic template of the clone army.^[11]

In addition to growth acceleration and behavioral modification, an inorganic bio-chip was installed into the brain of every clone trooper at the early stage of their development. The official reason behind the implant was to ensure that the clones would be more docile than their aggressive genetic donor.^[12] The true reason—as Prime Minister Lama Su and Nala Se understood it—was to ensure that the clones would terminate renegade Jedi in accordance with Protocol 66. Unknown even to the Kaminoans,^[13] the bio-chips were manufactured for the sole purpose of forcing the clones to annihilate the entire Jedi Order so that the Sith could ultimately reclaim control over the galaxy.^[14]

Just curious but where did you pull that information?

Ah, I see. I didn't play back then. Earliest my group dabbled with Star Wars was the D20 system era.

It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved

This alone sums up every criticism I have about his movies.

Lucas isn't very interested in world-building. He lives in the moment, doing whatever he needs to make a cool movie scene.

Fine for a movie, not so good for an RPG.

So when can we expect the Droid Lives Matter movement to show up?

It's already a thing in my games. The player has even used excerpts of MLK speeches.

Droids rights are a thing if you want them to be. Or handwave it like the movies do. I specifically wanted to cover new ground and the stuff the movies didn't.

I agree with Rodian Clone about the 'death of the author' as it pertains to Star Wars. Whatever Lucas or Abrams or whoever matters absolutely nothing to me. I genuinely couldn't care less. I'll take whatever is there - stormtroopers, death stars, wookiees, whatever - and do with them whatever I see fit.

It comes with being a role-player over a movie fan, I think. I've never cared less what Gary Gygax thought D&D should be either, or what Ed Greenwood wanted for the Realms.

As I've said before, I miss the early days when Star Wars felt like ours and not theirs. The FFG game is quite canon-lite, so it's very easy for us to make of it whatever we want.

Regarding one's own RPG campaign, I fully agree, the "canon" of an individual campaign is completely up to the players and GM to work out in preparation and in play -- as long as it makes sense to them, they all can agree, and they have fun, then that's the only thing that matters.

Regarding a broader discussion, however, when trying to make sense of the hash that was made of the setting, it's vital to understand what Lucas was up to -- his 70's pop-syncretism, and his dedication to mythbuilding and spectacle at the expense of coherent worldbuilding, are key components of understanding where to start from and how to take the pieces we have and make them something internally coherent and consistent.

It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved

This alone sums up every criticism I have about his movies.

Lucas isn't very interested in world-building. He lives in the moment, doing whatever he needs to make a cool movie scene.

Fine for a movie, not so good for an RPG.

Well, some of us would disagree that it's fine for a movie too. I'm fairly forgiving of plot holes, depending on the nature and size of them. But when it's just so obviously contrived, then I get a little snippy about it.

I wouldn't have minded if they had, you know, investigated that Jedi connection. Made it a mystery subplot or something, to further uncover the Sith influence. But nah, they just, sort of ignored it.

It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved

This alone sums up every criticism I have about his movies.

Lucas isn't very interested in world-building. He lives in the moment, doing whatever he needs to make a cool movie scene.

Fine for a movie, not so good for an RPG.

I would go so far that Lucas was good at chooising a design and creating a loose setting. He was however very bad at writting a story or creating a detailed setting.

It felt a lot like Lucas just sort of hand waved

This alone sums up every criticism I have about his movies.

Lucas isn't very interested in world-building. He lives in the moment, doing whatever he needs to make a cool movie scene.

Fine for a movie, not so good for an RPG.

I would go so far that Lucas was good at chooising a design and creating a loose setting. He was however very bad at writting a story or creating a detailed setting.

Eh, I don't know about bad at writing a story. From a lot of what I've heard about the making of it (which is, admittedly not a lot), he had good ideas. Not saying he's a super talented writer, but I mean, he did come up with the main thrust of Star Wars, and that seems to have worked out pretty well.

Well, some of us would disagree that it's fine for a movie too. I'm fairly forgiving of plot holes, depending on the nature and size of them. But when it's just so obviously contrived, then I get a little snippy about it.

I wouldn't have minded if they had, you know, investigated that Jedi connection. Made it a mystery subplot or something, to further uncover the Sith influence. But nah, they just, sort of ignored it.

I guess at the end of the day it's a kid's film. I didn't analyse it at 7, and even at 14 I remember just being a little sore that they reused the same ending as in the first film.

Lucas himself seems generally unhappy with the hardcore fans who analyse every little detail. He didn't put as much effort into it, so he doesn't think they should either.

As someone else stated elsewhere, his movies bend over backwards so the Jedi never have to make tough decisions.

Regarding a broader discussion, however, when trying to make sense of the hash that was made of the setting, it's vital to understand what Lucas was up to -- his 70's pop-syncretism, and his dedication to mythbuilding and spectacle at the expense of coherent worldbuilding, are key components of understanding where to start from and how to take the pieces we have and make them something internally coherent and consistent.

A fair point. I generally agree we should judge films and people in their correct context, time and place.

Just trying to make sense of SW as a whole, these details are important.

But in playing an RPG, none of that matters to me. I don't need midichlorians because he needed a harder-sci-fi explanation for a single scene.

Again, I think this comes down to the strictly passive role of someone watching a movie, and the active role of someone setting up a campaign in an RPG. Don't like gungans or ewoks? If you're playing an RPG, you don't have to include them.

Well, some of us would disagree that it's fine for a movie too. I'm fairly forgiving of plot holes, depending on the nature and size of them. But when it's just so obviously contrived, then I get a little snippy about it.

I wouldn't have minded if they had, you know, investigated that Jedi connection. Made it a mystery subplot or something, to further uncover the Sith influence. But nah, they just, sort of ignored it.

I guess at the end of the day it's a kid's film. I didn't analyse it at 7, and even at 14 I remember just being a little sore that they reused the same ending as in the first film.

Lucas himself seems generally unhappy with the hardcore fans who analyse every little detail. He didn't put as much effort into it, so he doesn't think they should either.

As someone else stated elsewhere, his movies bend over backwards so the Jedi never have to make tough decisions.

Well, I personally kind of agree. The fact that a fan is obsessed with some minor nuance of a story I make doesn't automatically make that nuance relevant or important at all. I'm not telling the story about that thing, whatever it is. It's mentioned, and used to establish mood/setting/etc, but that's not the story. If it was....I'd make it the story. We wouldn't see Luke dealing with Vader and the Emperor, we'd see droids front and center (to use the droid plight example). But yeah, I don't recall analyzing the movies as a kid, and I still don't really. Not to that level. When it gets to the point that I'm directly inserting fan theories into the actual work, to explain why this is the way it is, or why it's somehow now relevant, I'm doing a disservice to the original material. Plot holes are plot holes, and that's a different issue, but the other stuff, meh, I just don't care.

Though again, for gaming, that's a different story, because for my campaign I can do exactly that. Tell the story that I want to. So while Luke is off saving the universe, I can tell the equally compelling story of a group of organics, who are fighting to liberate a group of droids, because they believe they have sentience. Or some such story, which could be totally awesome. But that's not Lucas' story, it's mine.

But in playing an RPG, none of that matters to me. I don't need midichlorians because he needed a harder-sci-fi explanation for a single scene.

Funny thing though, is that midichlorians didn't actually "explain" anything. Anakin: "Oh, so it's little organisms inside me that let me use the Force?" Qui-Gon: "That's right." Anakin: ".....how?" Qui-Gon: "........."

It changed something that was numinous and mysterious into something mundane, without actually explaining anything at all. It just tore off the "It's magic!" and replaced it with a painted over "It's science!", without actually expanding our knowledge on things at all. That was one of the more amusing blunders to me in the prequels.

It changed something that was numinous and mysterious into something mundane, without actually explaining anything at all. It just tore off the "It's magic!" and replaced it with a painted over "It's science!", without actually expanding our knowledge on things at all. That was one of the more amusing blunders to me in the prequels.

Yeah, it felt like a total loss of faith in his own creation, that he didn't think science-fantasy could work in 1999.

If he didn't have faith in his creation, I decided I had no faith in it either.

Amusingly, we actually use midichondriawhatsits in our game... but they don't measure the presence of the Force or the power. Nobody in fact knows what they measure... diabetic blood sugars, possibly. The Jedi have studied the Force for thousands of years, and understand it about as much as when they started.

'It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.'