Returning a card that was never there

By sappidus, in Rules questions & answers

Noiseless Movement: "Action: Choose an enemy in the staging area. That enemy does not make engagement checks this round. Then, if your threat is 20 or less and this is the first time you played a copy of Noiseless Movement this round, return this card to your hand instead of discarding it."

Let's say you're playing an Elrond+Vilya deck that you've somehow gotten to threat 20 or less. You trigger Vilya and flip over a Noiseless Movement, choosing to play it (as the 1st copy this round). Can you "return" it to your hand after the rest of the effect fires, even though it was never in your hand in the first place?

Sure. It doesn't say it needed to be played from your hand.

I think you have to put that card at the bottom of your deck because the action clearly wants you to choose an enemy, what you can't do.. so playing this card is not possible.

This is a good question. I suppose it could go either way. We have past rulings for cards that say "Do X instead of Y" and if Y was never going to happen because of certain circumstances then you cannot do X. While this doesn't use instead, it is similar contextually and the developers may rule that you can't "return" something to a location if it was never there to begin with.

However, with that said, I have to strongly lean towards the opinion that you can "return" cards from a place that they never were. There are many cards that use the word return and I would not have thought they would have had to originate from a particular location to be returned to it such as A Light in the Dark (enemies can engage you without ever being in the staging area), A Watchful Peace (it is possible for a location to come from somewhere other than the top of the encounter deck), Dwarven Tomb, Elven-light, the Silvan events, etc. The list is quite large.

However, with that said, I have to strongly lean towards the opinion that you can "return" cards from a place that they never were. There are many cards that use the word return and I would not have thought they would have had to originate from a particular location to be returned to it such as A Light in the Dark (enemies can engage you without ever being in the staging area), A Watchful Peace (it is possible for a location to come from somewhere other than the top of the encounter deck), Dwarven Tomb, Elven-light, the Silvan events, etc. The list is quite large.

I agree with all of this, for sanity's sake. A ruling the other way would invalidate so very very much, and one would have to keep careful track of precisely how each card, like Silvan allies, entered play (or the discard pile!), which simply can't be designer intent.

Edited by sappidus

I think you have to put that card at the bottom of your deck because the action clearly wants you to choose an enemy, what you can't do.. so playing this card is not possible.

Why can't you choose an enemy?

I think you have to put that card at the bottom of your deck because the action clearly wants you to choose an enemy, what you can't do.. so playing this card is not possible.

Why can't you choose an enemy?

I think JanB misread the question (I did too at first). We are not talking about whether you can play Noiseless Movement if there is no enemy in the staging area (you cannot), but whether you can return Noiseless Movement to your hand after it is played with Vilya.

I'm going to say yes, otherwise it would have far-reaching implications for all the Silvan-based stuff. Cards like The Tree People, Feigned Voices, Island Amid Perils and Pursuing the Enemy wouldn't work on cards that have been Tree-People'd (or some other method like Vilya) into play. In addition, Orophin with his 'Return a Silvan ally from your discard pile' wouldn't work on allies discarded by Zigil Miner.

There's just too much to keep track of - both in play and in your discard pile.