I'm a fan of the game. I enjoy playing and think FFG has a real winner here. I just would like to see it survive, and keeping it easy to understand is one of the best ways of doing it. I just wanted wanted others opinion. We have a good group of people that we play with where i'm from. We have a rules lawyer that remembers every page and place to find every rule,errata,FAQ.... I just saw after he was showing me all the different places where moving threw obstacles was, that we needed to have them all compiled into one location. Not that it was hard to find, just that it was so spread out that if one part was missed that it could give a different impression.

You mean all two? There's a section in Learn to Play which covers the basics(all you should need to be teaching brand new players in their first game anyway), and the comprehensive section in the Rules Reference. There's not even an entry in the FAQ at a quick glance. It's really not anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. Learn to Play is all you need for someone's first few games. Once someone has the basics down, the Rules Reference covers all of the same material, just in more detail. The FAQ covers very specific situations and interactions, and along with the Errata aren't really going to be needed unless you plan to play tournaments.

If you're trying to explain how Omega Leader or the interaction between BB-8+PTL+Green maneuvers works to new players on their first game, you're going about it the wrong way...

I am going about it the wrong way... I posted here .. Thanks for that intuitive and constructive feedback. You make the forums come alive with possibility

No, we're just genuinely confused as to how you find it difficult. Getting snarky for not being able to provide a more specific instance of what may be a really confusing bit of rules for a new player would be helpful for us to see. Any scenarios you've put forward, such as Obstacles, are pretty straight forward for resolution.

If you can provide more specific instances to back up your position, other than just "this is hard", it may give us better insight with what you believes needs revision. The LtP and RRG are vast improvements over the original core rules set from when the game first came out.

And as to "We have a rules lawyer that remembers every page and place to find every rule,errata,FAQ..." that's not a rules lawyer. That's someone who makes a good tournament organizer. You basically also just described a number of people who help answer questions in the Rules subforum.

Thanks for focusing on me having difficulty finding something instead of the point of rearranging thing's to make them more user friendly for everyone in general. .. I have come to expect this .. Am I a bad person for wanting to see this game appeal to a wider group of people or like most cards according to these forums .. ( I just worded it wrong )

Any way... This has lost the intended direction so I'll no longer post on it.. Thanks for the input..

You're the one that brought up the idea that it needs to be reorganized. It's natural that we'd look to you, the poster of this idea, to provide structure and concept for this suggestion and what it needs. How have you come to "expect" this? I'm honestly confused by what you thought everyone would do. Jump on board and hoot and holler that yes, by George, this game is hard. But we don't find it that way, and by the nature of the Rules Subforum, these are generally the most helpful of all the community in here, that want to find ways to improve things.

This hasn't thread hasn't lost the direction, other than you're not able to provide suggestions on how to change things, other than by repeatedly saying things need to change. Feel free to post. Any clarification would be welcomed.

Thanks for focusing on me having difficulty finding something instead of the point of rearranging thing's to make them more user friendly for everyone in general. ..

That's because you're the one who keeps making incorrect statements about things and we keep pointing out how you are wrong.

If you have a problem with how the rules are laid out, you would have a much stronger case that they need to be changed if you were pointing out actual problems with them rather than pointing out things that simply are not true.

The game is hugely popular and the rules are quite easy to understand, there are only 3 different documents a player needs to look at ever.

The Learn to Play guide which is the basics, and what you should be using to teach new people. Then once they have a handle on the rules, they can read though the rules reference. If they have questions the FAQ helps answer some of these as well as contains the errata.

You keep saying it needs to be redone because there's too many documents and we're pointing out that two really isn't that many, especially when one of them is actually optional unless you play in OP events.

OP: I get that you're frustrated, and that being told "it could be worse" or "it's not actually that bad" isn't going to reduce your frustration.

Here's the thing, though: this thread is titled "Help ! I'm drowning ..", and we can't help you. We are powerless to alter the rules documents in the way you want. Anyone who is able to do that would be forbidden to post here.

It's not what you want, but when you call out "Help, I'm drowning!" to a group of people who can't help you, the responses can only be variations on "We can't help you" and "Are you sure you're really drowning?"

There have been various projects to consolidate rules and strategy into a guide for new players, but if you summarize or paraphrase at all during that process, you're just creating a new layer of abstraction to be navigated. If you don't summarize or paraphrase at all (just copying everything from LtP, RR, FAQ, and Tournament Rules that has anything to do with a particular topic into one section of your new document) you're going to be repeating a lot of text, and your final document is going to be intimidatingly long. And you'll need to update it quickly whenever there's a new FAQ. All that said, if you're feeling like such a document would help new players in your area, go ahead and make it.

Partly, I think this is a function of how the rules are presented. In the original core set, the actual rules seemed to be more of a complete explanation at each of the phases. The new one is more of a situational FAQ style that still leaves me following a trail of (for X turn to page Y), and I know what I'm looking for. I think some people will learn with this system fairly quickly and easily. For me, I liked the old way better because I just looked at the entire section dealing with what I wanted. I still think the Learn to Play section of the new core is better than the old, but both are well laid out.

When I am teaching someone, especially a younger player, I don't show them the rules at all. We play X-Wing and TIEs. The first time without any obstacles and without any cards. The second time, I add in obstacles. The third time, I'll keep obstacles and bring ship values up to 100 points, but still don't do cards and we are now using colored movement effects (red stress and green clear). After that, I'll introduce pilot cards and show them the corresponding things and how easy it is to keep track of. We will stick with generics and I'll have them play Rebels, Imperials and Scum before we start adding any upgrades and talk about the styles of how they work and usually give them one or two special pilots so they see some pilot abilities at work and can focus on that without problems from upgrade cards. Then I'll have them pick a faction and add in a few upgrade cards. Nothing like Soontir Fel and Darth Vader, but definitely R2-D2 on some form of X-Wing.

Basically it just becomes an organic process over a series of games. I certainly do not try to show anyone the complex aspects the first night. I just want them to have fun flying Star Wars ships and killing at least one of my ships. The excitement from that game will get them through a few losses and learning how to come to grips with asteroids and what it can do to them. Before they know it they are wanting to fly more ships and I'm pulling other things from my collection.

I've yet to teach anyone that already had a core set (of either flavor), but I have influenced some parental purchasing. If I had a parental rules lawyer, I would try to isolate them from the kids playing games and actually get that person to play me instead of being a bystander. Yes, they may always be a rules lawyer, but they might really learn to love the game too and if someone can be invested enough to pick through the rules, I'll take them as an opponent. I might not like sometimes finding out I'm doing something wrong, but normally they will make me a better player as long as I don't get into arguments with them.

So far, everyone has just had a lot of fun. I just haven't hit on to the proper combination of adult / kid that wants to keep learning and growing and take it to the next level. Most have been happy to just play casual games and have fun. Which is still good as I'm generally flying against myself and not my opponent, but I would love to have at least one person that wanted to really be competitive with the game.

I agree that a cheat sheet or a quick reference sheet would be handy, though that sounds like a DIY project. It might not be a bad idea to include relevant FAQ entries along with your lists in the same way you might bring rule reference cards along to spread the good word on proton bombs.

See the link below.

Thanks for focusing on me having difficulty finding something instead of the point of rearranging thing's to make them more user friendly for everyone in general. .. I have come to expect this .. Am I a bad person for wanting to see this game appeal to a wider group of people or like most cards according to these forums .. ( I just worded it wrong )

Any way... This has lost the intended direction so I'll no longer post on it.. Thanks for the input..

When you compare X-Wing to other games, it's simplicity just leaps out ahead every time. When you take into account that FFG have sold thousands upon thousands of units world wide, if they were to make a small change to the rules, then what are they supposed to do? Recall every unit? Of course not. That would be absurd and financially prohibitive. That's why they have a FAQ document.

Their original Rulebook was 28 pages featuring a full introduction to the components and 12 pages of basic rules to get you going. This was followed by Additional Rules, Missions, and some development fluff. The back page featured a Quick Reference guide.

The second and latest version we now have has broken that down to a Learn to Play and an alphabetised Rules Reference with a Quick Reference guide on the back page.

Overall, it's one of the easiest formats I have ever seen in a rule set, and I play a very wide variety of other games.

No one is picking on you, or focusing on you other than to try and tell you that your claim of "Help! I'm drowning" is really quite an over-reaction to an issue that only you seem to have. You seem to be going out of your way to make this harder than it really is.

Thanks for focusing on me having difficulty finding something instead of the point of rearranging thing's to make them more user friendly for everyone in general. .. I have come to expect this .. Am I a bad person for wanting to see this game appeal to a wider group of people or like most cards according to these forums .. ( I just worded it wrong )

Any way... This has lost the intended direction so I'll no longer post on it.. Thanks for the input..

When you compare X-Wing to other games, it's simplicity just leaps out ahead every time. When you take into account that FFG have sold thousands upon thousands of units world wide, if they were to make a small change to the rules, then what are they supposed to do? Recall every unit? Of course not. That would be absurd and financially prohibitive. That's why they have a FAQ document.

Their original Rulebook was 28 pages featuring a full introduction to the components and 12 pages of basic rules to get you going. This was followed by Additional Rules, Missions, and some development fluff. The back page featured a Quick Reference guide.

The second and latest version we now have has broken that down to a Learn to Play and an alphabetised Rules Reference with a Quick Reference guide on the back page.

Overall, it's one of the easiest formats I have ever seen in a rule set, and I play a very wide variety of other games.

No one is picking on you, or focusing on you other than to try and tell you that your claim of "Help! I'm drowning" is really quite an over-reaction to an issue that only you seem to have. You seem to be going out of your way to make this harder than it really is.

While I generally agree with you, and the the fact that X-Wing is relatively easy game to get into, yet offering a varied and deep experience for those interested in exploring the possibilities within the game is a big factor of its success (and because Star Wars )I`m not a big fan of the Learn to Play / Rules Reference Guide combo that is in the Force Awakens set (and Imperial Assault at least, as that is the other FFG game we play)

In and of themselves both the LTP and RRG are well written and laid out in my opinion, and should definetly be in the box, but the LTP only covers basic stuff (obviously), and the RRG is just a alphabetically sorted document using a lot of cross references, and is a pain for new players trying to learn the game.

Both games are fairly easy to teach, and the RRG is great if you have a more experienced player to help you, and any problems usually arise from the upgrade cards and their interaction and timing issues, and not so much rules themselves, and most players will pick them up fairly quickly.

But having watched new / inexperienced players wrestle with making the jump from the LTP and trying to figure out more complicated stuff by basically having to memorize the RRG, and trying to figure out what interacts with what, I think FFG still has a way to go to make these kind of games more user friendly and accessible to players new to these kind of games.

I also think the FAQ is solid. I see some complains about it`s soooo long and so much errata, but really most of it is minor stuff and clarifications covering 4 years.

You may find the Learn to Play / Rules Reference format is the way FFG are moving from now on. They've used the same format for X-wing, Imperial Assault and Armada. And that's only the Star Wars line that I know of.

One thing that may create a hurdle is that very format. It's easy to pick up the Learn to Play book and learn the game, but once you introduce some of the expansions, the newer players can become confused with the rules interactions. It's nothing to do with the actual rules layout. It's purely that most experienced players know these rules forwards and backwards, and see these interactions as normal. Whereas a newer player might not comprehend the subtlety of the interaction. I know I've seen some new cards come up, and thought that the particular card doesn't seem that exciting, but after diving into the rules to find which particular rule element is being used and how, I can see the sudden benefits more clearly. And I guess that's something that comes with experience playing this game. Two new players having a go for the first time are likely to make many mistakes. This is very much a game that needs to be taught to others by someone who has been playing for a while, in order to get the most out of it.

I know what you mean about the FAQ being so large now, but like you said, it's an evolution of 4 years of game design, so it's likely to get bigger each time, and with every new wave. And compared to earlier versions, it's now covering much more than just errata and card clarifications.