Some of you are going to love this as some kind of poetic justice.

After plaguing the forum with complaints about the vagueness of the games rules, I was finally swayed by several persistent and we'll spoken members. I called a meeting with my group tonight and explained how we were not grasping the heart of this systems approach. I explained narrative v.s. tactical and the joys of free form imaginitive game play instead of rules crunching.

The result?

An hour of arguing and two players of three frosted out. They are the hard nosed gamer types, mastery of a system toward victory is their style.

So, I got it guys, I'm a convert but my campaign is dead. I'm thinking of trying some solitaire Star Wars though. Could be fun. I've RPD solo before.

I wouldn't "love it as poetic justice." I would, however, say that it's all for the best. If a group - any group - doesn't enjoy a game - any game - better the group folds than spend precious time with a game and system that's not giving them any enjoyment. Then...build a new group. Sure, it may be easier said than done, but it can be done.

Sorry to hear it blew up, if you have the time there can often be found online groups looking for extra players. usually they are using Roll20 or Google Hangouts, keep your eyes peeled and you could snag a session.

Hope you can get some more players though too, as a positive if they are fresh to the system your chance of getting a game more to your style is much higher since you can groom them from the start.

For my group, every time we schedule a game, we post an event on Facebook.

You could do the same, post an event on Facebook and invite all 3 players, telling the 2 players that frosted out that they are still welcome to your game. If they are good friends, being with friends and having fun will always be more important than what you play and the rules you advocate. Just make sure you are prepared enough to put on a good show about narrative story telling and free form imaginative gameplay, that way you might sway them back in

Good luck

I wouldn't "love it as poetic justice." I would, however, say that it's all for the best. If a group - any group - doesn't enjoy a game - any game - better the group folds than spend precious time with a game and system that's not giving them any enjoyment. Then...build a new group. Sure, it may be easier said than done, but it can be done.

FFG’s version of Star Wars is not the only way to play this game. There are other versions of SWRPG that might be more amenable to groups who like their crunch.

There is nothing wrong with getting into something, identifying that there’s an aspect you don’t like and can’t live with, and then getting back out again. IMO, that’s a lot smarter than throwing good money after bad, as you try to force your way through the whole system and reinvent everything to fit the crunchy nature that you crave.

I’ve done that kind of thing several times in my life, sometimes just with regards to games where I spent a few hundred bucks buying the books, but other times with much bigger life decisions like who my employer is, or where I’m going to live, or moving to a different state.

Spending a couple hundred bucks on a game system that you ultimately decide doesn’t work for you … well … that’s not even a molehill compared to the mountain of deciding to change employers, pack up your house and move literally halfway across the country, live in the new place for a few months, and then decide the whole thing was a huge mistake and have to move back again.

Been there, done that. It’s better to discover these things early and fix the problem early, than it is to let the problem fester and turn into a malignant cancer.

Man, that sucks. The hard reality is that not every system is meant for every player - lord knows I wouldn't be happy playing in a WotC Star Wars game in the slightest. And trying to convince them or going "Hey, just give it a couple of sessions the new way" probably wont work.

I raise a glass to your epiphany and pour out a 40 for your loss.

You could have play your game with Saga, a grid map and minis, instead of blowing up your campaign by upsetting two or your player.

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

I would like to add that I am honestly sorry that things haven’t worked out for the OP.

Some things just weren’t meant to be.

However, now you get a chance to evaluate what (and who) in your life is important, and make decisions that align with those values, as opposed to just blindly following the path that had been previously set.

Do you want to take the fork to the left, or the fork to your right? Which one do you think will be likely to work out better for you in the long run?

Life changes can be unpleasant and messy, or they can be freeing and liberating. It’s your choice what to make of the life change that has been given to you.

Whatever choice you make, I do honestly hope that you have fun with an appropriate group of like-minded individuals.

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

Maybe, maybe not.

There’s still lots of good content out there for those games, and a lot of ideas and concepts can be shared amongst all three of them.

Those of us playing FFG’s version of SWRPG have the advantage that there are these two older games that we can crib ideas and concepts from, while we wait for FFG to come out with new stuff.

But those playing the older systems can likewise benefit from the new ideas and concepts that FFG comes out with, and bring what works for them into their games.

And players of all three lines can take inspiration, ideas, and concepts from the movies and TV shows, as well as the Expanded Universe.

It’s all in what you make of what you’ve got. And sometimes a stable well-known platform that works a certain way is a better choice than the alternative(s).

I know which choice that I would make in this situation, but I also know that my choice in this space does not necessarily coincide with the choices that other people might make.

So long as other people can be happy with their choice and let me be happy with my choice, then I’m happy to do the same for them.

I’m also happy to share ideas, concepts, and inspirations with them, even if we’re not playing the same version of the same game.

Saga really lends itself to "mastery of the system." It sounds like your players would absolutely love Saga Edition. It has enough of a Star Wars feel that it's not exactly the "DnD in Space" that the previous d20 Star Wars system was, but has enough crunch that it will keep the dungeon crawlers satisfied.

Saga really lends itself to "mastery of the system." It sounds like your players would absolutely love Saga Edition. It has enough of a Star Wars feel that it's not exactly the "DnD in Space" that the previous d20 Star Wars system was, but has enough crunch that it will keep the dungeon crawlers satisfied.

so long as Jedi are their thing

The narative format and dealing with the special dice was a bit of an adjustment for our group. One of the other players and I got introduced tomthe Basic Game for Edge of the Empire at our FLGS Game Day event. We both enjoyed it, and the Gamemaster was really in the know so the sample adventure ran smoothly. Both of us returned to our gaming group determined to get them to take the plunge. I ran the gameday scenario and then he ran another short scenario. It took both adventures to kind of get everyone into the swing of things. After that, we all made our own characters instead of using pregens, and haven't looked back since. The general concensus is that the narrative approach is a good one, and the system really tries to streamline monotonous details. we all kind of miss miniature tactical play, but we've weened ourselves down to just using the minis as general markers as to where we are located on the map. Things have really started rolling now, and our party has managed to dig a pretty deep hole for ourselves... The Black Suns are none to pleased with us and we're steering clear of Hutt Space for the foreseeable future. The plot has got us so tangled up in knots that I think no-one even notices now that were using a brand new system. Part of that I am sure can be attributed to the design of the system. It's light enough and flexible enough to not be burdensome while still offering exciting play. I'm glad we stuck with it long enough to get comfortable with it. We're waiting as the Age pf Rebellion and Force and Destiny books slowly trickle in. The should be real easy to incorporate into the game now that we're pretty familiar wit Edge of the Empire. That is, if we can ever stop being smugglers... We really embraced playing scum of the universe!

Saga really lends itself to "mastery of the system." It sounds like your players would absolutely love Saga Edition. It has enough of a Star Wars feel that it's not exactly the "DnD in Space" that the previous d20 Star Wars system was, but has enough crunch that it will keep the dungeon crawlers satisfied.

so long as Jedi are their thing

The Force does help a brother get ahead...but I've made some really broken Saga Edition builds that had zero Jedi levels and no Force sensitivity.

That's sad for you and I sympathise, but it happens a lot. Many groups abandoned D&D when 4E came out.

At the end of the day, this is a fairly narrative system and most gamers who like 'builds' and tactical combat and loads of rules aren't going to like rules-lite, theatre-of-the-mind games.

I think the FFG SW game falls somewhere in the middle in terms of complexity - it has both a lot of mechanics and mini-games, and a lot of -make-it-up narrative moments.

But if you're players aren't going to like the rules, it's best you all acknowledge that and they find something you do like.

Over the years I've cultivated a group of gamers who mesh well with my own style of GMing. I appreciate I'm lucky in that regard.

I doubt anyone here will see it as 'poetic justice' anyway.

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

OP, I'm sad to hear your game broke up, but clearly this wasn't the game system for them! Incourage them to listen to the podcasts I suggested in the other thread: one Shot for gaming in general. For Edge of the Empire: Campaign (spin off of one shot's 6 star wars episodes), Bothan Banter, Silhouette Zero.

Take your one convert with you, and go online to play if you can. Plenty of folk looking for players.

Recently I've been playing Skype, Google Hangouts, Roll 20 & Table Top Connect sessions with folk around the world. It can really work well if the sound quality is ok.

Sorry to here this RGrove. Like I have said before, I have met many other gamers who hate this system. From the special dice, to the special symbols, to the narrative layout, to no levels. Some even hated that the classes stayed in. Not every game is for every person.

I look at gaming in this kind of way, and I'm not saying this this is the only way to look at, or that "I'm right".

First, as the GM, I need to make sure I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And I don't mean winning the game and always beating up the players. For me it's all about a fun and exciting story with my players as the stars who win 97% of the time, but want them on the edge of their seats the majority of the time.

Second, I want my players to be able to do the things they want to do and play the characters they want to play (inside the context of the campaign). If the players are not having, then I won't be having fun either.

Third, we use it as a social day to get together and enjoy each other's company. We laugh, eat, drink, and be merry.

So I'm not trying to be an ass here, but having a dark gaming room, strict rules on outside talking, no drinks or food allowed, does not seem like an environment that lends its self to a narrative, social interacting game either.

I find no "poetic justice" in this, just I would not find any if you came here and said, screw this guys, this is not the game I'm looking for. I know this is not the game everyone, just like I'm not the type of GM for everyone. We all have a different idea and definition of what "FUN" is and means, but the table as a whole needs to come to a consensus and an agreement on what their idea will be. Well, clear skies out there and hope you can find more players for your group. I don't do the VR type of game, but if I ever do, you will be the first one invited! I am truly sorry that your group is breaking up. That is always a hard one to deal with. Good luck, and MTFBY.

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

Maybe, maybe not.There’s still lots of good content out there for those games, and a lot of ideas and concepts can be shared amongst all three of them.Those of us playing FFG’s version of SWRPG have the advantage that there are these two older games that we can crib ideas and concepts from, while we wait for FFG to come out with new stuff.But those playing the older systems can likewise benefit from the new ideas and concepts that FFG comes out with, and bring what works for them into their games.And players of all three lines can take inspiration, ideas, and concepts from the movies and TV shows, as well as the Expanded Universe.It’s all in what you make of what you’ve got. And sometimes a stable well-known platform that works a certain way is a better choice than the alternative(s).I know which choice that I would make in this situation, but I also know that my choice in this space does not necessarily coincide with the choices that other people might make.So long as other people can be happy with their choice and let me be happy with my choice, then I’m happy to do the same for them.I’m also happy to share ideas, concepts, and inspirations with them, even if we’re not playing the same version of the same game.

Indeed. My upcoming campaign was originally to be played in the WEG system. It's a great system, and there's a reason it still has a strong player base after 18 years since it ended, plus subsequent systems by other publishers (including FFG). Primarily for my initial choice, the dice mechanic is super easy for those who haven't played RPGs before...just multiples of d6; no various sided dice for different uses, no unique symbols, etc. Several players had completed their characters in that system.

Playing a few sessions in the FFG system (along with Oggy's CG program and the GM tools within) convinced me that the learning curve of the dice system was worth the trade-off of how streamlined the system is, and how I think it lends itself to the type of games I plan to run.

That's a bummer man, sorry. I hope they come around or you can find some other pals to play with.

It feels to me like mastering THIS system would yield incredible results. There's plenty of room for tacticians and power gamers to get their minmax on, it's just at a different level. I love tactics and it's certainly freeing for me not to have to count squares or get out ye olde range ruler. Maybe they'll come around?

Some of you are going to love this as some kind of poetic justice.

After plaguing the forum with complaints about the vagueness of the games rules, I was finally swayed by several persistent and we'll spoken members. I called a meeting with my group tonight and explained how we were not grasping the heart of this systems approach. I explained narrative v.s. tactical and the joys of free form imaginitive game play instead of rules crunching.

The result?

An hour of arguing and two players of three frosted out. They are the hard nosed gamer types, mastery of a system toward victory is their style.

So, I got it guys, I'm a convert but my campaign is dead. I'm thinking of trying some solitaire Star Wars though. Could be fun. I've RPD solo before.

That sucks, sorry to hear it. But, that's just how it works out sometimes. The two people I play with now, that I GM for using this system, are very analytical players. They want to be more freeform and narrative, but it's just simply hard for them, given their brain wiring. I have to kind of shepherd them, and remind them "narrative, not statistical" when it comes to things. They're getting better, and they're really good about it out of game, discussing it casually. But when they're at the table, they are very hard pressed to actually just let loose and go with it.

I'd fish around your social circles for a few people who would be more narratively inclined when it comes to gaming, and see if they would be interested in it. Try people you know who are in the creative arts, or theater. Since to me, this system, encourages "improvisational theater" more than any other type of system, people who already enjoy, and engage in that type of activity, but who are also gamer nerds (or just simply like Star Wars), might be your ideal players.

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

I have never played a game and thought "this would be so much more fun if there were new books to buy for it." I think you are mistaking good games with games that are fun to collect.

I'm no fan of SAGA (by a long shot), but there is plenty of material out there to run a game.

Sorry to hear that.

Master of the system? You should have directed them to all the "Autofire is broken" threads. =)

The problem with that of course, is that the WotC engine is a dead engine. No new material, no support, no new anything. Oh sure, there are probably people who play it - there are folks that still play WEG - but without a new flow of stuff, it wont be nearly as good as an FFG game.

I have never played a game and thought "this would be so much more fun if there were new books to buy for it." I think you are mistaking good games with games that are fun to collect.

I'm no fan of SAGA (by a long shot), but there is plenty of material out there to run a game.

I agree (except I think Saga is really good).

I'd say that Saga isn't dead as much as it's complete.

And sometimes complete systems can be a boon to a group (especially if you've already got all the books in the group).

There's no splat book power creep (though FFG seems to be pretty good at keeping power creep down).

And Saga has official support for a bunch of eras.

Hey dude! im sorry to hear about that! I only game with like really close friends so i cant imagine that happening, but if these guys are good friends perhaps you guys could table the idea and play something you'd all enjoy, try to get another star wars group together in the meanwhile?

Hope your gaming works out!