That's sad for you and I sympathise, but it happens a lot. Many groups abandoned D&D when 4E came out.

At the end of the day, this is a fairly narrative system and most gamers who like 'builds' and tactical combat and loads of rules aren't going to like rules-lite, theatre-of-the-mind games.

I think the FFG SW game falls somewhere in the middle in terms of complexity - it has both a lot of mechanics and mini-games, and a lot of -make-it-up narrative moments.

But if you're players aren't going to like the rules, it's best you all acknowledge that and they find something you do like.

Over the years I've cultivated a group of gamers who mesh well with my own style of GMing. I appreciate I'm lucky in that regard.

I doubt anyone here will see it as 'poetic justice' anyway.

I find it amusing and odd that "build" focused players are turned off by FFG.

The engineer part of me is more distracted (or stimulated) by point buy systesm like FFG than class based systems like d20.

They both get my mind churning but point buy systems are typically a lot more complex.

When you're spending XP you've go soooo many more options and combinations and paths to consider. With a class based system you've got a lot fewer paths to take.

Some of you are going to love this as some kind of poetic justice.

After plaguing the forum with complaints about the vagueness of the games rules, I was finally swayed by several persistent and we'll spoken members. I called a meeting with my group tonight and explained how we were not grasping the heart of this systems approach. I explained narrative v.s. tactical and the joys of free form imaginitive game play instead of rules crunching.

The result?

An hour of arguing and two players of three frosted out. They are the hard nosed gamer types, mastery of a system toward victory is their style.

So, I got it guys, I'm a convert but my campaign is dead. I'm thinking of trying some solitaire Star Wars though. Could be fun. I've RPD solo before.

Poetic justice would be when you run the game you want to play with the players willing to play it and have fun.

I played with three of the murderiest, hoboiest, munchkiniest, miniest maximus, system gamiest power monkeys ever to hop, walk, slither, crawl, fly, glide, swim, drift or fooat. They whined like someone had stolen their puppies when our GM switched to Star Wars. He had one motivator in that he wanted me to play and one ace in the hole because my brother, who was one of the whiniest of the three, could be told, "Do this for your family, please." and he could pull the others along.

My dad basically drew a line in the sand. He said this was the game he was running. He had the pull to convince my brother straight away and that was enough to get the other two to give it a shot. I'm pretty sure they hated me for it... but, eventually, they all figured it out and if they could, your friends surely can. But, then again, if they're that closed minded, maybe they'd only try so that they could sabotage your game and force you to switch back to something more murderhobo friendly...

Incidentally, since the three other players went off to university, it's left me to play solo with my dad. It's different. It took me a while to appreciate it, though. I don't have a wealth of experience to draw upon so that's probably the main reason. The story has changed drastically. It was very much an action-oriented story but now it's entirely character driven. We're watching my character learn to come to grips with being fore sensitive. She'd blamed the Jedi and their mystic abilities for the state of the galaxy so it's been a tremendous burden. It's harder but I'm learning that it can be very rewarding to play solo. I hope it's as rewarding for the GM. And Ihope you get to deliver that poetic justice!

snip

Incidentally, since the three other players went off to university, it's left me to play solo with my dad. It's different. It took me a while to appreciate it, though. I don't have a wealth of experience to draw upon so that's probably the main reason. The story has changed drastically. It was very much an action-oriented story but now it's entirely character driven. We're watching my character learn to come to grips with being fore sensitive. She'd blamed the Jedi and their mystic abilities for the state of the galaxy so it's been a tremendous burden. It's harder but I'm learning that it can be very rewarding to play solo. I hope it's as rewarding for the GM. And Ihope you get to deliver that poetic justice!

I enjoy the smaller scale games personally. I'm GMing this system with 2 friends, and it's working out pretty well so far. They aren't murderhobo-ish, but they are very number crunchy versus fluffy. Or to coin an old phrase I heard, they're mostly ROLLplayers, as opposed to ROLEplayers. But having it just be the 3 of us, I can devote more time to their personal stories, and there is less chance of distraction from an outside source.

I'm soldiering on with my one player. We actually ran a session this morning and had a great time. A very different dynamic one on one. I'm gonna keep the fire burning for a while, see if that don't come around.

When I get a chance I'm gonna say a bit more about single player games.

You know what I might do if I were you? First - hone the hell out of your GM craft for a bit, really get the abstract down so it just rolls off your tongue.

Once you're good and ready, invite just one of the players that bolted. Tell him just give it one more try, stick it out for a couple of sessions and if it still doesn't win him over, you shall never mention it again. And then once you blow his socks off* and get him on your side, you use him as an allie. Send him to another player than bolted and get him to lure the guy back with claims of "It's not as bad as I thought. You should give it a shot".

Win them over one at a time instead of trying to do it in bulk.

*Assuming, of course, that you do win him over that is.

Sorry to here this RGrove. Like I have said before, I have met many other gamers who hate this system. From the special dice, to the special symbols, to the narrative layout, to no levels. Some even hated that the classes stayed in. Not every game is for every person.

I look at gaming in this kind of way, and I'm not saying this this is the only way to look at, or that "I'm right".

First, as the GM, I need to make sure I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And I don't mean winning the game and always beating up the players. For me it's all about a fun and exciting story with my players as the stars who win 97% of the time, but want them on the edge of their seats the majority of the time.

Second, I want my players to be able to do the things they want to do and play the characters they want to play (inside the context of the campaign). If the players are not having, then I won't be having fun either.

Third, we use it as a social day to get together and enjoy each other's company. We laugh, eat, drink, and be merry.

So I'm not trying to be an ass here, but having a dark gaming room, strict rules on outside talking, no drinks or food allowed, does not seem like an environment that lends its self to a narrative, social interacting game either.

I find no "poetic justice" in this, just I would not find any if you came here and said, screw this guys, this is not the game I'm looking for. I know this is not the game everyone, just like I'm not the type of GM for everyone. We all have a different idea and definition of what "FUN" is and means, but the table as a whole needs to come to a consensus and an agreement on what their idea will be. Well, clear skies out there and hope you can find more players for your group. I don't do the VR type of game, but if I ever do, you will be the first one invited! I am truly sorry that your group is breaking up. That is always a hard one to deal with. Good luck, and MTFBY.

Well said!

I'm sorry you couldn't convert your players, RGrove, but I'm glad that you're having fun with the system. If I were you I would try Desslok's idea, and see if you can eventually bring them around. I've played D&D 4.0, 2.0, and 5.0, as well as some Fate, and the Dragon Age RPG (which I find to be as good as EotE) but EotE still is my favorite system of gameplay.

"I'm soldiering on with my one player. We actually ran a session this morning and had a great time. A very different dynamic one on one. I'm gonna keep the fire burning for a while, see if that don't come around.

When I get a chance I'm gonna say a bit more about single player games."

Watch this video, if you plan on keeping it a 1 on 1 game. It has a lot of helpful hints. Remember that in Star Wars characters are rarely alone for long after they are introduced:

Switch to saga... Now if you need the books I can hook you up for a nice price.

But all joking aside, did the players at lesst want to give it a shot? Because if not the blame is squarely on them.

"I'm soldiering on with my one player. We actually ran a session this morning and had a great time. A very different dynamic one on one. I'm gonna keep the fire burning for a while, see if that don't come around.

When I get a chance I'm gonna say a bit more about single player games."

Watch this video, if you plan on keeping it a 1 on 1 game. It has a lot of helpful hints. Remember that in Star Wars characters are rarely alone for long after they are introduced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsWe_vs18&index=9&list=PLZfuKgeD5fl5wy96C6G-FdqwBp3qhsdSz

The Silhouette Zero podcast is a great one on one Edge of the Empire actual play!

Switch to saga... Now if you need the books I can hook you up for a nice price.

But all joking aside, did the players at lesst want to give it a shot? Because if not the blame is squarely on them.

I would hope so

We played 3 sessions and had fun but came up with a host of issues with the system. I tried and succeeded, with some effort and a lot of help here on the boards, to come up with answers but they weren't impressed by them. They went off to play something they had been talking about for a while anyway. We are still friends and will play other games together, just not this one. For now, Star Wars FFG is between my and a remaining buddy... and perhaps my twins boys who are now 10... or maybe in couple years.

We played 3 sessions and had fun but came up with a host of issues with the system. I tried and succeeded, with some effort and a lot of help here on the boards, to come up with answers but they weren't impressed by them. They went off to play something they had been talking about for a while anyway. We are still friends and will play other games together, just not this one. For now, Star Wars FFG is between my and a remaining buddy... and perhaps my twins boys who are now 10... or maybe in couple years.

I think including your boys would be a great idea. Given the more narrative system of the game, they can just let their imaginations go while playing, without having to worry about learning this massive system. Let them take on a "padawan" style position with the remaining player. Or heck, actually do a game session with that in mind. Talk to your friend who still plays, ask him to take on a "mentor" role with a character, and have your sons play kids in Star Wars. If Jedi is something they all like, have him be a Master, and the two of them his Padawans. Have fun with it. Embrace the narrative, and roll with it to get your kids involved more. Focus on the fun of it, and not the RAW of it.

... and perhaps my twins boys who are now 10... or maybe in couple years.

I played a one-shot with a couple boys that age at a FLGS, it seemed like the kids took to the premise and dice faster than the adults did. Of course boys will be boys and there was a little horseplay, but I found they had some entertaining and original ideas to contribute.

Some of you are going to love this as some kind of poetic justice.

After plaguing the forum with complaints about the vagueness of the games rules, I was finally swayed by several persistent and we'll spoken members. I called a meeting with my group tonight and explained how we were not grasping the heart of this systems approach. I explained narrative v.s. tactical and the joys of free form imaginitive game play instead of rules crunching.

The result?

An hour of arguing and two players of three frosted out. They are the hard nosed gamer types, mastery of a system toward victory is their style.

So, I got it guys, I'm a convert but my campaign is dead. I'm thinking of trying some solitaire Star Wars though. Could be fun. I've RPD solo before.

What country/state/city do you live in... i've got an out of town in state player who drives in, we were talking about maybe figuring out a way for him to telecomute the games so that's not entirely off the table either.