There are a couple of soft counters to the Phantom, too. Wampa, for example. It's not massively likely he'll get a free shot that rolls right into a crit on Whisper, but it definitely can happen, and it often makes the Whisper player nervous enough to either concentrate fire on the poor little TIE, or avoid him for a turn or two. If Palp is also on the table, it really amps that effect up.

It's no hard counter, but it's certainly something.

Wampa wouldn't ever get old Whisper into his sights. Ion weapons were considered a soft counter, too, and they didn't work reliably either.

There are a couple of soft counters to the Phantom, too. Wampa, for example. It's not massively likely he'll get a free shot that rolls right into a crit on Whisper, but it definitely can happen, and it often makes the Whisper player nervous enough to either concentrate fire on the poor little TIE, or avoid him for a turn or two. If Palp is also on the table, it really amps that effect up.

It's no hard counter, but it's certainly something.

Yes, but that means every Imperial player has to take Wampa. What I'm saying is that there are things you HAVE to take specifically to deal with a Phantom. It limits the play lists.

Wampa wouldn't ever get old Whisper into his sights.

I have three very salty opponents who might disagree.

Wampa wouldn't ever get old Whisper into his sights.

I have three very salty opponents who might disagree.

But thats new Whisper, right? Old one was quite a bit more of a pain to catch.

That is true. He'd be a hell of a lot harder to pin down under the old decloak.

_{I was present at a tournament pre-nerf where an 86 pt. 2 Phantom list won, and our local community has some very good players. I think of the 6 games he played, he lost 1 Phantom in 1 game. Not more than a month ago today, at another tournament here, 2 lists that made the top 4 cut(including mine) had Phantoms. Phantoms had to be nerfed but they are doing fine. People think that because something is nerfed, that its not good any longer. Phantoms are still strong.}

I think the first point you make is actually more an early indicator of how employing a flying style where you solely play to avoid bad exchanges is just a way better strategy than what people were doing at the time (relying on bulk to win). It just so happens that 2 arc dodgers without silly fodder to protect (even shuttles) can more easily "wait" for the perfect moment to pounce (and Phantoms actually have the gun to make only firing occasionally an actual viable strategy). Mixing jousting ships and arc dodgers sometimes forces the arc dodger to make bad moves in order to work well with the jouster (focus fire/protect it, etc.). That's why Deci + Soontir was so successful. Both ships could wait to engage or perpetually disengage until they got the right moment, which was made even better by having a turret arc still pouring damage while yoi waited for the perfect moment to focus fire the harder to kill ships.

Though, Im not arguing against FFGs changing of the decloak. It was very nice that they fixed it in such a way to make me still want to play it, but so people don't get salty when they see it across the table.

That's it? Was your experience that tramatic that even years later you are incapable of discussing it rationally and intelligently and thus simply shreak "No!" With haunted eyes locked forward?

There's literally nothing to discuss. The ship was released, it's effect on the game was monitored and a decision was taken to adjust it following that impact. The discussions have all already been had, the lessons have all already been learned and "No" is all the response your original post requires.

Hell, your topic has lead to me liking a ficklegreendice post; that alone should tell you everything you need to know.

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus during waves four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus during waves four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

What are you flying? even before the nerf, the phantom had an incredibly hard counter. High PS turrets. even spamming TLT shots are hard on a phantom because it doesn't have AT. It's lower PS no turret lists that were auto lose. I still see a a lot of phantoms but but they are a niche now among the empire.

Sorry I'm late to the party. Do I get still get points?

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus durtournaments four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

What are you flying? even before the nerf, the phantom had an incredibly hard counter. High PS turrets. even spamming TLT shots are hard on a phantom because it doesn't have AT. It's lower PS no turret lists that were auto lose. I still see a a lot of phantoms but but they are a niche now among the empire.

I fly Vader with Juke+ATC, Juno with VI+ATC, two Academy Pilots and Wampa. Again though, not a single showing in the top eight of four different tournaments seems to speak of something other then me just being really good at killing them.

Sorry I'm late to the party. Do I get still get points?

Only if you recant your stated dislike of the Assault Gunboat.

RECANT, HERETIC!

Strongly disagree, the theme of light and agile ships is they they become exponential more useful in the hands of skilled pilots. Usually interceptor pilots were aces before they even got into a interceptor. TIE/LNs were build to be deathtraps and use swarm tactics, Y-Wings and X-Wings are build to be more forgiving to bad pilots, those are ships which by all means should work decent enough with generics. Interceptors and other high agility/maneuverability ships are made for people with high pilot skills and I am totally fine with generics falling flat on those ships.

I've said it a few times, but there's really no fluff justification for a PS 1 Interceptor. PS 4-5 is pretty much what you have to be to be flying those things in the first place.

Strongly disagree, the theme of light and agile ships is they they become exponential more useful in the hands of skilled pilots. Usually interceptor pilots were aces before they even got into a interceptor. TIE/LNs were build to be deathtraps and use swarm tactics, Y-Wings and X-Wings are build to be more forgiving to bad pilots, those are ships which by all means should work decent enough with generics. Interceptors and other high agility/maneuverability ships are made for people with high pilot skills and I am totally fine with generics falling flat on those ships.

I've said it a few times, but there's really no fluff justification for a PS 1 Interceptor. PS 4-5 is pretty much what you have to be to be flying those things in the first place.

So True.

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus durtournaments four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

What are you flying? even before the nerf, the phantom had an incredibly hard counter. High PS turrets. even spamming TLT shots are hard on a phantom because it doesn't have AT. It's lower PS no turret lists that were auto lose. I still see a a lot of phantoms but but they are a niche now among the empire.

I fly Vader with Juke+ATC, Juno with VI+ATC, two Academy Pilots and Wampa. Again though, not a single showing in the top eight of four different tournaments seems to speak of something other then me just being really good at killing them.

Updated Cloaking rules text is also available in the Rules Reference Guide, FYI.

I have a 40 point build on echo that plays very well.

Echo : 30

Advanced cloaking : 4

Fire-Control : 2

Recon Specialist : 3

Calculation : 1

It allows you to decloak every turn, with a target-lock and 2 focus.

I have killed many ships in a single volley.

The named Phantoms are the focus of your 100 point build

the generic ones are just a useful addition to your list.

When we get a lot of players we grab a 40 point ship and have a huge free for all on a single 3 by 3 play area.

I take this build almost exclusively and very seldom get killed..

change calculation to Decoy and slap a 12-ps tie FO for extra fun and recoilless PS12 echolocation!

Generic phantoms with SJ and evade-on-cloaks-mod go EXTRAORDINARILY WELL with VI Jax. Just give it a try!

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus durtournaments four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

What are you flying? even before the nerf, the phantom had an incredibly hard counter. High PS turrets. even spamming TLT shots are hard on a phantom because it doesn't have AT. It's lower PS no turret lists that were auto lose. I still see a a lot of phantoms but but they are a niche now among the empire.

I fly Vader with Juke+ATC, Juno with VI+ATC, two Academy Pilots and Wampa. Again though, not a single showing in the top eight of four different tournaments seems to speak of something other then me just being really good at killing them.

That's going to help a lot. When you are running PS9 vs. a whisper, very often you are shooting before they do, or moving after so they can't get you in arc. Plus wampa can do damage without having to actually get through their mountain of evade dice. Your list is specialized out to kill phantoms.

I'll admit I never played during the Phantom's glory days, I had to take a hiatus durtournaments four and five, but I've played through four store Championships so far this season and not a single one has had one Phantom in the top eight so clearly we aren't seeing the same gaming environment. When I see a one across the table from me it's not even remotely intimidating and I have never had even the slightest issue in dealing with them to the point where when I see that my opponent has one it's basically a matter if how long will it take me to table him.

I just don't see the uber death ship people still seem to see it as. It's barely more threatening then a Headhunter. Maybe the prenerf Phantom was just something you had to see to understand how deadly it was but on paper it didn't sound as bad as everyone seems to remember it.

What are you flying? even before the nerf, the phantom had an incredibly hard counter. High PS turrets. even spamming TLT shots are hard on a phantom because it doesn't have AT. It's lower PS no turret lists that were auto lose. I still see a a lot of phantoms but but they are a niche now among the empire.

I fly Vader with Juke+ATC, Juno with VI+ATC, two Academy Pilots and Wampa. Again though, not a single showing in the top eight of four different tournaments seems to speak of something other then me just being really good at killing them.

That's going to help a lot. When you are running PS9 vs. a whisper, very often you are shooting before they do, or moving after so they can't get you in arc. Plus wampa can do damage without having to actually get through their mountain of evade dice. Your list is specialized out to kill phantoms.

And if you're PS8 or lower, you're WHisper food

...making it something of a novelty that is never seen in the top rounds of serious competitive play.

^{[citation needed]}

You mean like these?

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1402

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1388

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1386

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1385

Oh wait, those have Phantoms on the top tables. What about these?

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1384

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1382

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1378

Whoops! Dang, those have Phantoms on the top tables too! Man, maybe page 2 of the most recent events will have more events without Phantoms competing at the top...

I saw two at the local SC. They're not as prolific any more, but they're certainly not gone away. During the Winter Kits, I saw three of them. In one list. Yeah, I know. And you know what else? They worked bloody well.

I think you see less of them now because they're a touch more difficult to fly, now. There's more forethought involved (a hell of a lot more if you're playing Echo...). They're not less powerful, there's just a higher skill threshold required.

I always say, nothing is OP if it costs the right amount. The old Phantoms were too cheap to work the way they did. But that doesn't mean the ability itself can never exist again.

I think putting a new upgrade in that makes the ship function the way it's pre-nerf self did would be fine as long as it's costed properly.

It could be a Modifcation, System or Crew upgrade. And in addition to costing points, it would cause the ship to have to give up something else to be able to do it. System upgrade is probably the best for the Phantom players, but I think some kind of "Cloaking Specialist" Crew upgrade makes the most sense.

Or if you really want to limit it, you could add a new, unique pilot and have it be his special ability. For example:

I always say, nothing is OP if it costs the right amount. The old Phantoms were too cheap to work the way they did. But that doesn't mean the ability itself can never exist again.

Not true. Game engine's have boundaries and if you get too far out of them, there's no real cost that can justify them.

Arguably pre-nerf Whisper was there. Outside of a few expensive dedicated counters, it was entirely possible to win games with just Whisper. Does that mean that she should have been priced at 90 points? I'd argue her abilities were simply out of the game's bounds.