I'm not sure which hard counters you mean. Effects like Proton Bomb, Advanced Homing Missiles, and Wampa that ignore shields hit Phantoms hard, but not really any harder than they hit other ships with 3 Agility.

Most of those other 3 Agility ships don't spend most of their time flying around with a functional 5 Agility though.

And a good chunk of those 3 Agility ships also have a 3 Hull, which prevents them from getting one-shotted by those weapons.

But the phantom also has two shields, which often protect it a bit more against "early" crit effects. For example, while a Decivader still hurts a phantom but its initial attack isn't nearly as likely to finish it as it is an interceptor. Its four health also means that auto-hit effects aren't as likely to kill it (AB, Feedback array, the new Scum droid, etc..) There's some balance there.

I'm not sure which hard counters you mean. Effects like Proton Bomb, Advanced Homing Missiles, and Wampa that ignore shields hit Phantoms hard, but not really any harder than they hit other ships with 3 Agility.

Most of those other 3 Agility ships don't spend most of their time flying around with a functional 5 Agility though.

And a good chunk of those 3 Agility ships also have a 3 Hull, which prevents them from getting one-shotted by those weapons.

But the phantom also has two shields, which often protect it a bit more against "early" crit effects. For example, while a Decivader still hurts a phantom but its initial attack isn't nearly as likely to finish it as it is an interceptor. Its four health also means that auto-hit effects aren't as likely to kill it (AB, Feedback array, the new Scum droid, etc..) There's some balance there.

True but if say someone is running RAC with VI that Phantom is going to spend the whole game running for its life while AT let's the other ships stay alive by arc dodging.

I'm not sure which hard counters you mean. Effects like Proton Bomb, Advanced Homing Missiles, and Wampa that ignore shields hit Phantoms hard, but not really any harder than they hit other ships with 3 Agility.

Most of those other 3 Agility ships don't spend most of their time flying around with a functional 5 Agility though.

And a good chunk of those 3 Agility ships also have a 3 Hull, which prevents them from getting one-shotted by those weapons.

But the phantom also has two shields, which often protect it a bit more against "early" crit effects. For example, while a Decivader still hurts a phantom but its initial attack isn't nearly as likely to finish it as it is an interceptor. Its four health also means that auto-hit effects aren't as likely to kill it (AB, Feedback array, the new Scum droid, etc..) There's some balance there.

True but if say someone is running RAC with VI that Phantom is going to spend the whole game running for its life while AT let's the other ships stay alive by arc dodging.

Either way it's a tough matchup for both with the same weaknesses.

I'm not sure which hard counters you mean. Effects like Proton Bomb, Advanced Homing Missiles, and Wampa that ignore shields hit Phantoms hard, but not really any harder than they hit other ships with 3 Agility.

Most of those other 3 Agility ships don't spend most of their time flying around with a functional 5 Agility though.

And a good chunk of those 3 Agility ships also have a 3 Hull, which prevents them from getting one-shotted by those weapons.

But the phantom also has two shields, which often protect it a bit more against "early" crit effects. For example, while a Decivader still hurts a phantom but its initial attack isn't nearly as likely to finish it as it is an interceptor. Its four health also means that auto-hit effects aren't as likely to kill it (AB, Feedback array, the new Scum droid, etc..) There's some balance there.

True but if say someone is running RAC with VI that Phantom is going to spend the whole game running for its life while AT let's the other ships stay alive by arc dodging.

Not really. I mean, an autothruster intercepter is on the same "clock" as a phantom. I've played both versions and sides and the best thing to do is try to hit it hard and make them Vader as much as possible so that RAC takes as much damage as possible while losing your own ships. The phantom can take two Vader activations if it avoids the hits. That isn't quite as true of the interceptors, and the phantom actually hits harder.

Either way it's a tough matchup for both with the same weaknesses.

Except to a VI RAC the Phantom is every bit as easy to kill as a Z-95

I'm not sure which hard counters you mean. Effects like Proton Bomb, Advanced Homing Missiles, and Wampa that ignore shields hit Phantoms hard, but not really any harder than they hit other ships with 3 Agility.

Most of those other 3 Agility ships don't spend most of their time flying around with a functional 5 Agility though.

And a good chunk of those 3 Agility ships also have a 3 Hull, which prevents them from getting one-shotted by those weapons.

But the phantom also has two shields, which often protect it a bit more against "early" crit effects. For example, while a Decivader still hurts a phantom but its initial attack isn't nearly as likely to finish it as it is an interceptor. Its four health also means that auto-hit effects aren't as likely to kill it (AB, Feedback array, the new Scum droid, etc..) There's some balance there.

True but if say someone is running RAC with VI that Phantom is going to spend the whole game running for its life while AT let's the other ships stay alive by arc dodging.

Not really. I mean, an autothruster intercepter is on the same "clock" as a phantom. I've played both versions and sides and the best thing to do is try to hit it hard and make them Vader as much as possible so that RAC takes as much damage as possible while losing your own ships. The phantom can take two Vader activations if it avoids the hits. That isn't quite as true of the interceptors, and the phantom actually hits harder.

Either way it's a tough matchup for both with the same weaknesses.

Except to a VI RAC the Phantom is every bit as easy to kill as a Z-95

Well, a Phantom can take an evade and combine w/Kallus (and sometimes Palpatine), so that's not accurate. Phantoms have gained some tools to last longer when facing higher PS that they did not have from Wave 4-6.

I was simply refuting the statement that interceptors are better off in the matchup because they're not, assuming you are talking about RAC with Vader crew. As I said, either way a Decivader is a very bad matchup for both and neither get more than 1 turn of shooting against VI RAC with Gunner Vader. If there's no Vader crew, yeah, the interceptor is probably going to be more able to survive with authothrusters, but if I've got Kallus on Whisper with a non-Vader Decimator, I'm still going to get some work done there, too before going down and I could see it having an easier time getting arc and staying at range while it is alive.

I always say, nothing is OP if it costs the right amount. The old Phantoms were too cheap to work the way they did. But that doesn't mean the ability itself can never exist again.

I think putting a new upgrade in that makes the ship function the way it's pre-nerf self did would be fine as long as it's costed properly.

It could be a Modifcation, System or Crew upgrade. And in addition to costing points, it would cause the ship to have to give up something else to be able to do it. System upgrade is probably the best for the Phantom players, but I think some kind of "Cloaking Specialist" Crew upgrade makes the most sense.

Or if you really want to limit it, you could add a new, unique pilot and have it be his special ability. For example:

First off, I'm a huge imperial player. And I'll be the first to tell you, that a ps8 with the ability to take VI is over powered (before we factor in that ability) Second, that mechanic was already added to the game as both a pilot (Sabine Wren in the attack shuttle) and as an upgrade (BB-8)

I always say, nothing is OP if it costs the right amount. The old Phantoms were too cheap to work the way they did. But that doesn't mean the ability itself can never exist again.

I think putting a new upgrade in that makes the ship function the way it's pre-nerf self did would be fine as long as it's costed properly.

It could be a Modifcation, System or Crew upgrade. And in addition to costing points, it would cause the ship to have to give up something else to be able to do it. System upgrade is probably the best for the Phantom players, but I think some kind of "Cloaking Specialist" Crew upgrade makes the most sense.

Or if you really want to limit it, you could add a new, unique pilot and have it be his special ability. For example:

This bastardous monstrocity you've just made has only 2 things to be afraid of in this world

Rebel Captive Chiraneau

VI Han

and utterly OBLITERATES anything else out there.

It's just supposed to be an example, I just picked the PS at random.

Like I said, my personal preference is that it be a Crew upgrade instead of a pilot ability anyway.

Old phantom is dumb as F*** and eats anything with lower PS (and no rebel captive. Oh God, HOW MUCH DOES SHE HATE THE CAPTIVE!)

This one here is "old" phantom and bumps to PS10

Okay.

I didn't play before the Phantom nerf, but the phantom is probably fine the way it is. If it were ever to get un-nerfed, the best solution would probably to make that either a mid PS ability or to make it a mod slot so that you can2use old cloak and ACD.

I always say, nothing is OP if it costs the right amount. The old Phantoms were too cheap to work the way they did. But that doesn't mean the ability itself can never exist again.

I think putting a new upgrade in that makes the ship function the way it's pre-nerf self did would be fine as long as it's costed properly.

It could be a Modifcation, System or Crew upgrade. And in addition to costing points, it would cause the ship to have to give up something else to be able to do it. System upgrade is probably the best for the Phantom players, but I think some kind of "Cloaking Specialist" Crew upgrade makes the most sense.

Or if you really want to limit it, you could add a new, unique pilot and have it be his special ability. For example:

I am thinking of a a pilot skill of 5 and a price of 29.

If you want to keep the pilot skill 8 then you need to make the point cost 37 unless you remove the EPT slot then point cost should be 35.

Playing with the scum cloaking device this is what I found out

• Scum are Klingons: They cloak right before they get ready to attack, then decloak and swoop down on their opponent with devastating firepower, and never cloak until after the battle.
• Imperials are Romulans: They stay cloaked lying in wait, planning their moves and considering their position. When they decloak they overwhelm their prey with superior firepower then immediately recloak to hide form their enemies.
• Rebels are Federation: They made some treaty that says Good Guys can't have a Cloaking Device, so Shields Up?

But yeah you don't use the scum cloaking device as a defensive upgrade but more as a maneuver upgrade where you get a free 2 straight or 2 barrel roll to relocate your ship. The +2 agility is just a bonus. And if it doesn't flip out you can do it again and set up for another attack run.

At the risk of being considered "uncivil," "immature," or "unintelligent," I present to you this data[1].

What about "uncouth"?

Of the Store Championships held this year which had at least 24 players[2] and were entered into List Juggler:

- 175 had at least one TIE Phantom

- 44 made the Top 8 cut

- 34 made the Top 4 cut

- 21 made the final table

- 7 won

That means that if you made the top 8 cut with a phantom, you're 1.27 times as likely to win than if it were pure random (that's (7./44) / (1./8) = 1.27). There's also an amazingly strong showing all the way through the final table (21/44) / (2/8) = 1.9 times as likely to make it to the finals). That's incredibly good.

Clearly (sarcasm), that means that the Phantom is only flown by the best players, and needs to be denerfed.

Well, to be fair, you have no input on player skill which, you know, matters. So for all we know, only very good players might be taking them and winning. The only statement you can make from that is that "Phantoms are present in tournaments" and that "They have chances to make it to the final table". So, you know, they can be really good.

As a newer player, I think the mechanic is fine the way it is. The ship, in my opinion, is a touch over priced now. The fragility, plus the lower pilot skill the ship has standard is a bit of a hit, and having VI is almost a requirement. Now mind you, this is from someone still learning, and my opinion is subject to change based on how my skills in the game progress.

By the ever present Force, no.

Double Phantoms at 86pts is still a thing, and still powerful (not busted like it was), and they do not need to be cheaper. In fact I'd say that since they are competitive at 86pts for 2, against lists that are 98-100 points, it shows they are under costed. Two phantoms at 86 can do the work of a full 98-100 point list. What does that tell you? They are about 5pts too cheap (or the combination of all the crap they take like ACD and FCS and VI are too cheap when put on a Tie Phantom).

The only thing that needs changing is the Cloak/Decloak mechanic. It was poorly designed to begin with and the nerf has only pushed it further into the realm of weird.

e.g.

I am sick of being "forced" to take either VI or LW, for Echo and Whisper and no one uses the generics.

Variety please, FFG?

As a newer player, I think the mechanic is fine the way it is. The ship, in my opinion, is a touch over priced now. The fragility, plus the lower pilot skill the ship has standard is a bit of a hit, and having VI is almost a requirement. Now mind you, this is from someone still learning, and my opinion is subject to change based on how my skills in the game progress.

Four dice primary.

The only thing that needs changing is the Cloak/Decloak mechanic. It was poorly designed to begin with and the nerf has only pushed it further into the realm of weird.

e.g.

I am sick of being "forced" to take either VI or LW, for Echo and Whisper and no one uses the generics.

Variety please, FFG?

Its current state makes perfect sense: a cloaked phantom is in one of three places: two forward or two left or right of the model's location. The round it decloaks, it reveals which place it's in. While cloaked, its extra agility represents having a hard time targeting a ship you can't see. You know roughly where it is though.

Lone Wolf isn't autoinclude in slightest on a Phantom: if you've equipped it instead of Veteran Instincts you've broken the addiction and can equip it which whichever EPT you want.

As for the generics, they're more demanding than the named. The metagame likes easy power.

I would argue that turrets actually do take skill to fly effectively. maximizing effectiveness of range, dealing with autothrusters and the fact that if enough shots come into you, you're toast. Good turret lists are difficult to fly.

LOL. Please, don't even try.

The only thing that needs changing is the Cloak/Decloak mechanic. It was poorly designed to begin with and the nerf has only pushed it further into the realm of weird.

e.g.

I am sick of being "forced" to take either VI or LW, for Echo and Whisper and no one uses the generics.

Variety please, FFG?

Its current state makes perfect sense: a cloaked phantom is in one of three places: two forward or two left or right of the model's location. The round it decloaks, it reveals which place it's in. While cloaked, its extra agility represents having a hard time targeting a ship you can't see. You know roughly where it is though.

You've just highlighted the weakness of the cloak mechanic, the whole idea of a cloaking device is to prevent the enemy from detecting you. With 3 possible positions to decloak to, and with obstacles & ships on the board, I almost always know where Whisper will be. And if you are one of those players who hinges their entire strategy on 2-4 green dice, then I salute you - but that is not for me and frankly, I think that that is poor design of game mechanics.

Lone Wolf isn't autoinclude in slightest on a Phantom: if you've equipped it instead of Veteran Instincts you've broken the addiction and can equip it which whichever EPT you want.

It is on Echo.

Backed by Sensor Jammer, Kallus and the Emperor I wish your ace good luck trying to nail Echo, without upgrades like Vader (crew) and a turret.

As for the generics, they're more demanding than the named. The metagame likes easy power.

They aren't demanding, they require Stygium and they die like flies to any arc-dodgers/turrets/high PS lists, of which the meta currently consists of.

4 Phantoms hits hard. Really hard.

Honestly its one of the more elegant cloaking systems I've played in terms of not knowing where a model is until it decloaks. There's no great answer to the concept in tabletop games. I'd much rather have something like this than a hidden movement system where you have to track the model's position off the board at the very least.

4 Phantoms hits hard. Really hard.

They also die easy. Really easy.

And if you are one of those players who hinges their entire strategy on 2-4 green dice, then I salute you - but that is not for me and frankly, I think that that is poor design of game mechanics.

Good thing there are dozens of other ships for you to play.

4 Phantoms hits hard. Really hard.

They also die easy. Really easy.

Sounds balanced to me.

4 Phantoms hits hard. Really hard.

They also die easy. Really easy.

Sounds balanced to me.

One would think that.

And if you are one of those players who hinges their entire strategy on 2-4 green dice, then I salute you - but that is not for me and frankly, I think that that is poor design of game mechanics.

Good thing there are dozens of other ships for you to play.

There are and that IS good, but what if I wanted to play a Phantom, with something other than VI/a poor implementation of cloaking?