So, I did a PSA on how to do barrel rolls on Vassal here, because the method of barrel rolling I've seen a few times seems unfair (doing backwards max and forwards max, then deciding in between). But it appears it's not a hard established fact that once you pick up a ship to barrel roll you've committed to a movement template location. (aka you cannot barrel roll max backwards, then change your mind, move the template towards the front and do it there)

What is your take on this?

Why can't you? On a real table you declare the side of the roll, and only the side, then can adjust up and down as you please. What am I missing?

Not totally sure I understand your question, but...

But it appears it's not a hard established fact that once you pick up a ship to barrel roll you've committed to a movement template location.

...this part is true, I'm pretty sure. In fact, once you lay your template down on one side or the other, you're committed to rolling that way as long as you fit.

Doh, ninja-ed...

His arguemtn is that once you place the template, you're locked into that exact template location. So if you place the template allt he way forward, then decide you'd rather go backward instead, you can't move the template to do so.

I think what the OP is suggesting, is that this sequence of events is possible:

1. Declare a barrel roll to the right
2. place the template down at the rear edge on the right side of your base
3. pick up your ship
4. decide you don't want to barrel roll "backwards"
5. put your ship back
6. slide the template to the front edge of the base
7. pick up your ship again and place it down at the other end of the template.

His arguemtn is that once you place the template, you're locked into that exact template location. So if you place the template allt he way forward, then decide you'd rather go backward instead, you can't move the template to do so.

No, my argument is you can move the template as you please, but once you pick up your ship to move to the other end, you can no longer adjust the movement template. So you can't do a barrel roll, decide you don't like it, go back to your initial position, then move the template to another location (on the same side) and try again.

You're locked to a side but not the final position until you've moved the model is how I always understood it.

I think what the OP is suggesting, is that this sequence of events is possible:

1. Declare a barrel roll to the right
2. place the template down at the rear edge on the right side of your base
3. pick up your ship
4. decide you don't want to barrel roll "backwards"
5. put your ship back
6. slide the template to the front edge of the base
7. pick up your ship again and place it down at the other end of the template.

Yeah, except the complete opposite . I'm arguing that the sequence of events you've outlined shouldn't be allowed according to the rules.

You're locked to a side but not the final position until you've moved the model is how I always understood it.

Me too!

Nah, you can slide the template up and down the side of the ship all you want. It's in the rules that once you place the template down on the side of the ship, you must follow through with the roll if you are able to. You actually are forced to slide the template around to find a legal barrel roll position if some of them would be obstructed.

Picking up your ship from the table doesn't have any consequence if you leave a marker to remember its original position. We pick up ships all the time for maneuvers and firing arcs, just leave the forward 1 maneuver next to the location as a helpful tool.

Why is this an issue?

BR into tight locations pretty much requires you to slide ships in and out. If it's an issue of "play drift" be sure to ask your opponent to hold your template and any ship you might bump while you slide your ship.

I think what the OP is suggesting, is that this sequence of events is possible:

• Declare a barrel roll to the right
• place the template down at the rear edge on the right side of your base
• pick up your ship
• decide you don't want to barrel roll "backwards"
• put your ship back
• slide the template to the front edge of the base
• pick up your ship again and place it down at the other end of the template.

Yeah, except the complete opposite . I'm arguing that the sequence of events you've outlined shouldn't be allowed according to the rules.

I agree that it shouldn't be allowed, but I haven't spotted anything in the rules to prevent it (I personally wouldn't do it). Additionally, it can be difficult to determine if your ship will fit (without overlapping) before you pick it up and move it, at which point if it doesn't you have to put it back.

In the spirit of the rules, it does seem like once you lift up your ship, you've committed to the possibilities presented by the template in the position you placed it in.

However - If the roll is not possible with the template in the forward position due to an obstacle or a ship - you're still locked into rolling right if you can replace the ship and move the template back, so that you can complete the roll to the right. - which seems to suggest that we're only locked into direction, not into template placement.

I've not seen anything on this as an actual ruling.

You're locked to a side but not the final position until you've moved the model is how I always understood it.

Me too!

Pretty sure this is correct, didn't realize there was any dispute or reason for it to be another way. I always say "attempt to barrel roll right" or "attempt to barrel roll left," and if I can fit in any way, rolling forward or backward, I have to do so. I'm not required to say "barrel roll forward right" or anything like that, though - that part you get to decide once you determine that you can fit and that there's more than one possible position to end up in on the side you've committed to rolling toward.

....right?

I have never had a problem with anyoneadjusting the template after they checked location. As long as it was flush with an edge they have the exact position marked, right?

Is this actually against the rules?

I have never had a problem with anyoneadjusting the template after they checked location. As long as it was flush with an edge they have the exact position marked, right?

Is this actually against the rules?

This.

And no, it is not against the rules.

No mention of fore nor aft, only port and starboard.

Here we go:

When a player declares a barrel roll action for
his ship, he must also declare whether the ship
is barrel rolling to the left or to the right before
placing the maneuver template on the play area.

Reasonable people could disagree about how to interpret that. Surprised this has not already been faq'd.

And the FAQ says:

When performing a barrel roll, a player must first declare from which side of
the ship’s base the action will be performed. Then, he measures to see if the
ship is able to perform a barrel roll action from any legal area on the declared
side. If the ship can perform the barrel roll action, it must do so. If the ship
cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player may declare a barrel roll in
the other direction, or he may declare a different action.

Which made me wonder about Zeta Ace. He can use a 2 template for rolls instead of the 1. Does that mean if he declares a BR to the right, but can't fit with the 2, he has to use the 1 if that would fit?

Reasonable people could disagree about how to interpret that. Surprised this has not already been faq'd.

I was pretty sure it was.

Which made me wonder about Zeta Ace. He can use a 2 template for rolls instead of the 1. Does that mean if he declares a BR to the right, but can't fit with the 2, he has to use the 1 if that would fit?

I'd say no, since the Barrel roll attempt failed anyways. I'd say you could roll to the other side (2 template), take another action, or try again with the 1 template.

Reasonable people could disagree about how to interpret that. Surprised this has not already been faq'd.

I was pretty sure it was.

Which made me wonder about Zeta Ace. He can use a 2 template for rolls instead of the 1. Does that mean if he declares a BR to the right, but can't fit with the 2, he has to use the 1 if that would fit?

Current RAW, I believe so, but based on Lieutenant Lorrir's FAQ:

When declaring a barrel roll action, the player controlling Lieutenant Lorrir must declare both the side and direction of the roll. If Lorrir can perform the barrel roll action, he must do so. If Lorrir cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player controlling Lorrir may declare a Barrel Roll action in any other direction, or he may declare a different action.

I would expect a similar FAQ for Zeta Ace in the future (exchanging direction for speed).

And the FAQ says:

When performing a barrel roll, a player must first declare from which side of

the ship’s base the action will be performed. Then, he measures to see if the

ship is able to perform a barrel roll action from any legal area on the declared

side. If the ship can perform the barrel roll action, it must do so. If the ship

cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player may declare a barrel roll in

the other direction, or he may declare a different action.

Which made me wonder about Zeta Ace. He can use a 2 template for rolls instead of the 1. Does that mean if he declares a BR to the right, but can't fit with the 2, he has to use the 1 if that would fit?

So, I did a PSA on how to do barrel rolls on Vassal here, because the method of barrel rolling I've seen a few times seems unfair (doing backwards max and forwards max, then deciding in between). But it appears it's not a hard established fact that once you pick up a ship to barrel roll you've committed to a movement template location. (aka you cannot barrel roll max backwards, then change your mind, move the template towards the front and do it there)

What is your take on this?

I agree that this should not be allowed. It seems like that is the standard on Vassal due to the way barrel rolls are automated. If I'm doing a BR on Vassal that is not fully forward or backward then I will pull out the template and do it manually. I did piss Muon off on one occasion when I did a manual roll but ended up rolling fully one way anyway...haha.

This totally matters if you are trying to dodge arcs and especially if you are barrel rolling then boosting to dodge arcs. It takes a bit of skill to visualize where your barrel roll then boost will place you. Once you have picked a side, placed your template, and lifted your ship off the table then you should be bound to that template placement if you can legally complete the roll.

From the rules reference:

"BARREL ROLL

Ships with the "BR" icon in their action bar may

perform the barrel roll action to move laterally and

adjust their position. To perform a barrel roll with a

small ship, follow these steps:

1. Take the [F1] maneuver template.

2. Place one end of the template against the left or

right side of the ship’s base. The template cannot

be placed beyond the front or back edges of the

base.

3. Lift the ship off the play surface, then place

the ship at the other end of the template. The

template cannot be beyond the front or back

edges of the ship’s base, and the ship must face

in the same direction as before the barrel roll.

• A ship cannot barrel roll if it would overlap

another ship or an obstacle token, or if the

maneuver template would overlap an obstacle

token.

• A ship cannot barrel roll if this would cause the

ship to flee the battlefield.

• When a player declares a barrel roll action for

his ship, he must also declare whether the ship

is barrel rolling to the left or to the right before

placing the maneuver template on the play area.

• If a player declares a barrel roll action for his

ship and cannot complete the action in the

desired direction, he may choose a different

direction or a different action entirely.

• Performing a barrel roll does not count as

executing a maneuver."

There is nothing in there that lets you put your ship back to the original position (STEP 2) just because you don't like where you placed the template originally.