How big game surface?

It should be 6' x 3' (2m x 1m) for a good experience for a 300-point list for each side. Set up on the long side, not the short.

Transports can be a game changer for the Rebels, if properly equipped and defended. Don't leave the bubble!

Transport is good until you face only normal ships, other epic ships eat transport for breakfast, even Gozanti

Played my first Epic Saturday. Ran 450 pts/side, 3 vs 3 on a 6' x 6' map. No unique pilots, no epts. Builds of 150 points for each huge ship and 100 points each for fighters and bombers.

To keep movement straight we used a dry erase board and the magnets the size of business cards. Each group of ships with the same PS had a card and the cards were placed in ascending order with a check mark when they moved. The check was "X" out when they shot. Easy to keep track of the who and when aspects of the game.

This first game worked out most of the kinks and was HOOT to play! FFG has given us all the tools to have fun. Use your imagination and have at it!

First off.....let me say there are technically two different types of games with the big ships. The first is Epic and the second is Cinematic. Epic is where you get 300 pts and build a list to defeat your opponents. Cinematic is really just....playing something cool. You aren't required to do anything and it's the most fun, in my mind. For me, I've found Epic to be not the best. Both sides have a lot of points to figure out a way to kick the other person's list in. I feel like the game is won in the list building stage if you have someone that is going for the competitive win.

Cinematic, though, I love! You know those campaigns that come in the Epic ships? That's Cinematic. The missions are fun and they teach you how to use the ship. They don't take so long to play these games, either. So, you don't have all day to do a game? Run one of these. If you own an epic ship and know how to fly it, but no one else in your area does? Play the campaign missions, but let THEM play the epic ships. It's almost like a tutorial on how to get used to the ship, but it's really fun. I'll probably just say "epic" games for the rest of this, but I most likely mean cinematic.

When I bought the CR90, I decided I would make myself play with it. I even went to a local table top convention (that doesn't normally have minis) and ran 3 demo games of X-wing. It was 205 pts vs 205 pts (I just wanted those 5 extra on each side). It was the CR-90 vs. a bunch of various Tie Fighters. No one really knew how to play the game, but it didn't take long. It was a blast! I even recruited a regular player in the event.

If you are playing a standard Epic or Cinematic game with 300 pts then the more you play, the faster it goes. When all players are used to the big ship rules, then it's smoother. There are also other tricks and tips you can do to make big ship games go faster. I'll list a few here:

1) When you spend your points, break them into little squadrons with missions. Stick 3 X-wings together and 4 Tie Fighters together. These guys will fly together and try to accomplish a mission: torpedo run on enemy ship, or protect the bombers, or intercept enemy fighter craft. When it comes time to move the squadron, it's easier to think of them as a group and quicker to move them. Not only does it save time, but it's a lot of fun to play this way!

2) If you play with more than 2 players (which I recommend) then break up the ships into groups per player. Give so many squadrons to each player. Give players clear objectives and a force to accomplish it. It goes quicker. It's also good because two players can really go at the same time if they are at opposite ends of the table. Announce overall PS you are at (PS 2 Rebels, go!) and move them all.

3) DO NOT go for the cheapest option for ships. If you have a lot of Tie Fighters, don't just go with all Academy Pilots. This bogs the game down when one guy has to move 12 Tie Fighters and then fire 12 Tie Fighters. It's....annoying. When you break them into squads, spread out the PS score. I can see either all of one PS in a squad or even a mix of PS. This way, all players should be involved at all parts of the game. If one guy has to take 10 minutes to use all his ships, people wander away from the table. Personally, I prefer each squad to have different PS skills so everyone has to pay attention and stay involved.

4) Play with as many generic ships as you can. If you start with each player having some unique special ability, droid, weapon, or something else, it bogs the game down. That's if you can remember all of them. You do tend to forget about all the special stuff anyways. It's just easier. Also, I find it cooler to have more ships on the table than fewer, but more expensive ships. There is also the aspect that aces can die a lot easier in Epic than regular games. 6 Rookie X-wings can concentrate fire and take out Soontir Fel pretty easy, which means you just wasted your points. I will say that one or two uniques per side is not bad. I found I like to go for the unusual ones. I've found Kir Kanos is actually pretty good in Epic!

5) Make balanced lists when playing. Either have one person make both lists or agree to certain types of lists. It's no fun when you take all the time and effort to play a big game and one side picks the cheesiest stuff to win the game. I'm thinking maxing out on as many TLT ships as you can or something similar. Why take the time to bust out the minis and set up and all that when it's just a one sided stomp fest? If you are going to take the time play a game like this, at least make it fun for everyone.

Overall, I've found that if you just buy the ships, they just sit there. If you try to engage people in playing with the Epic stuff (especially ahead of time on FB groups and such) then you will find people that want to play. I've posted on local groups that I want to play Epic and had people go out of their way to get to that game store on that night to play Epic. I've had others say that they never played it and don't own the ships, but want to try it. I've also suckered people who have never played the game before, but just liked the look of the big ships and little ships as we blast Star Wars music. It's a lot of fun if you take the time and can get through the first game. I say start with the campaigns so that people learn the rules and get used to slightly bigger games. Then, set up a balanced 300 pt list with players that know how to play and see how it goes. These are some of the best games I've ever played.

I will say that the game can be very different this way. Maneuvering is a lot more important. Which ships go first and when makes a big difference. I've seen games lost because players held too many ships in reserve. I've seen the exact same game played and lost because some people committed forces too early. It's got subtlety and nuance that isn't in the regular game.

Epic is my ideal Star Wars experience. It's got the focus on dogfighting while behemoths trade blows overhead that neither standard X-Wing nor Armada quite captures. It's also my favorite team combat game out there at 2v2 200 points per player. SInce so much is done simultaneously, it doesn't bog down nearly as badly as most team combat games I've played.

The Epic ships themselves are pretty solid, but very easy to overspend on. The Gozanti is by far the easiest to get right, as its basically a Decimator. The Rebel Transport is really good, but its lack of offense (outside of ramming) means you need to design it with a purpose. I'm fond of it as a jammer, but the important thing is to keep it focused. I try to stay under 40, though the Gozanti can afford a bit more.

Then there's the big boys. Both are hugely improved with the new modifications, which up their damage potential considerably. I think the CR90 ends up being better taking the Ordinance Tubes, as it lets it isolate its halves. I really like Optimized Generators on the Raider, which in general really needs to turtle the aft section anyway. Again, the trick is to not overspend. I try to keep it around 125-140 at the most.

I really like epic, but it can get a little overwhelming for less experienced players. Just this past weekend, I played an epic game against two of my friends (one mildly experienced and the other only having played HotAC) where I fielded the Raider for the first time.

The battle went extremely well for both sides as far as attack rolls went. Lots of damage was flying every turn after the initial engagement. Unfortunately, a big chunk of my squad (my TIE swarm, decked out to do some serious damage) rolled 15-straight green dice without a single evade result. Even with choosing an evade for their actions each turn, they got absolutely shredded within a couple of rounds against Dash Rendar and the Ghost. The green dice later blanked out on the Inquisitor as well.

The Raider was by far the star of the show. It survived the longest and I think it was the only ship on my side of the board to get any kills. It managed to take out three ships, then get two others down to 1 Hull before the aft section was crippled.

All of us were itching to play another game by the time it was over, and I'm sure we'll be doing it again soon.

Epic is fun. Epic is long long long long long long.

2-3 hours is pretty standard for a decent sized wargame.

Yeah but a lot of people don't have 2-3 hours anymore and a ton of disposable income. The economy and job market hasn't been what it used to be and many people are either working two or more jobs or just struggling by. Part of the draw to X-wing besides Star Wars is that it is affordable to start and get in some casual games and the games only take about an hour or two. It is fun but it doesn't take a lot of time or money which is something people don't have as much anymore. A lesson GW has not learned yet.

Epic is fun. Epic is long long long long long long.

2-3 hours is pretty standard for a decent sized wargame.

Yeah but a lot of people don't have 2-3 hours anymore and a ton of disposable income. The economy and job market hasn't been what it used to be and many people are either working two or more jobs or just struggling by. Part of the draw to X-wing besides Star Wars is that it is affordable to start and get in some casual games and the games only take about an hour or two. It is fun but it doesn't take a lot of time or money which is something people don't have as much anymore. A lesson GW has not learned yet.

That is why BOTH modes of play are viable options. I'll admit, I hated tournament play because it has such a hyper-focus on efficiency and viability, but once I started more casual playing with Epic, Missions, and Heroes of the Aturi Cluster it put the whole thing in perspective:

Standard dogfights are there to satisfy the competitive, test-yourself-to-the-limits urge we all have.

Epic is there for a broader scope and to satisfy the urge for a more strategic game where you can play more than one tactic - or use tactics which are less efficient.

Missions are there to enjoy favorite ships and shake things up with weird and sometimes whackily one-sided scenarios.

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster is great because it's cooperative; you're not against the other players but WITH them, working together to beat a dung-er, the evil AI Empire. AImpire?

The main problem as I see it with X-Wing is that FFG doesn't do enough to encourage other ways to play. For every player who thrives on the hyper-competitive environment of tournament play, there are three who despise it and just want to play their favorite ships, not buy obscure ships that were in one or two comic books or a novel that they've never heard of let alone read.

The main problem as I see it with X-Wing is that FFG doesn't do enough to encourage other ways to play. For every player who thrives on the hyper-competitive environment of tournament play, there are three who despise it and just want to play their favorite ships, not buy obscure ships that were in one or two comic books or a novel that they've never heard of let alone read.

Agreed. I think FFG made a mistake by promoting the 100 point dogfight as the standard way to play. People have a natural inclination to adhere to the standards, to do things the official way. People don't like to deviate, so when FFG says the standard game is 100 points it makes life tough for the rest of his who want to play differently.

Even when people want to delineate Epic games into strictly 300 points, and anything else must fall into a catch-all category of cinematic play, it kind of rubs me the wrong way. We don't need all these restrictions and delineations. I can have a 150 point dogfight. I can play Epic at 400 points. I don't need FFG to tell me how to play and I think their 'suggestions' are a bit counter-productive to be honest.

Epic is fun. Epic is long long long long long long.

2-3 hours is pretty standard for a decent sized wargame.

Yeah but a lot of people don't have 2-3 hours anymore and a ton of disposable income. The economy and job market hasn't been what it used to be and many people are either working two or more jobs or just struggling by. Part of the draw to X-wing besides Star Wars is that it is affordable to start and get in some casual games and the games only take about an hour or two. It is fun but it doesn't take a lot of time or money which is something people don't have as much anymore. A lesson GW has not learned yet.

...

The main problem as I see it with X-Wing is that FFG doesn't do enough to encourage other ways to play. For every player who thrives on the hyper-competitive environment of tournament play, there are three who despise it and just want to play their favorite ships, not buy obscure ships that were in one or two comic books or a novel that they've never heard of let alone read.

I'm not saying people should not play Epic, it is my favorite format. I only wish I had more time for opportunities to play Epic. Also it would be nice if FFG supported formats other than standard especially with their premier/formal/official events. Heck I would like to see an Epic Worlds Championship and I don't know if this new open tournament does (I don't have the time or money to follow it). But you know maybe some escalations that end in epic would be nice.

I'm not trying to say that other formats should be disregarded and everyone should only play standard. That will get boring after a while and there are times I even skip league nights especially when it is another standard format play and everyone is waiting on the next expansion release. Still standard is the most popular format and it does earn FFG a lot of revenue and exposure from its championships based off of competitive standard. All the podcasts talk about tournaments, every ship is given a jousting value to determine its competitive edge in standard and so on. Of course FFG is going to prioritize that. Could we use some more mission formats? Absolutely, It would be nice to get an official Trench Run kit and get to play using either the same cinematic or shake it up a bit by letting in all the waves such as B-wing and K-wings dodging Interceptors and Phantoms or even a Rebels vs Scum trench run.

Anyways I like Epic, but standard is what drives FFG's business model.

Well I've got to find a way to use my ships. I bought the raider only to learn that running four TIE Advanced was stupid... And the TIE Advanced was/is my 'favorite ship' for whatever that's worth.

I'm looking for ways to try out Epic, and I already know a little about missions. The problem has been finding players who will break away from the 100 point 'normal,' and finally forcing myself out of it as a requirement for continued play myself, and I've only reached that point now.

But Epic does have promise to me (and 'non-standard' points matchups).

I'm also interested in a 'composition requirement' the way someone talked about.

One of the things that balanced out lists and play-style differences in lists was the requirement for a composition of forces (40K had Troop, Heavy, Elite, etc.), and then you would show up at an event and not know what terrain you would face and what the scenario mission would be. I can understand why that can't happen in 100 point games (and why others may not want it) but I always enjoyed it as a balancing factor (especially the unknown scenario/terrain table stuff).

Anyway, if anyone wants to do Vassal Epic, I would be interested in learning. Just send me a message and we can find a time to meet up. I'm also a pretty good Vassal teacher, if you've never used it before. I'm off on Easter Sunday... but I work in a restaurant so I work quite a varied schedule week to week.

I would agree with others that Epic may actually feel more like 'Star Wars', or at least 'Ridiculous Unscientific but Rad Space Battles', than either the normal game or any format of Armada (and even has advantages over my previous favorite mini game, Battlefleet Gothic). While Armada also features capital ships and fighters, it ultimately boils down to sets of tokens ramming each other while miniatures duke it out across a larger area. Epic is visual and tactical chaos; Tie Fighters risk everything to dart under and over hulking transports, K-turning for desperate close-range shots, whole squadrons of Interceptors shriek to intercept lumbering bombers loaded with ship-crippling torpedoes...and occasionally giant corvettes awkwardly slap against each other until one blows up. The mix of fighter movement mechanics with lumbering huge ship templates and energy management make for one of the more diverse and compelling games around without getting totally bogged down in tiny details.

If you are for some reason averse to proxies (which I would get over fast in Epic) I'd go for the Gozanti first, since it's modifications were the final touch on FFGs now fairly extensive buffing of Epic ships up to semi-competitive standards in their own format. If the length is intimidating try a full 300 v 300 point Epic game with each side further divided into 150 point groups; this should give one player per side a tooled-up Corvette and maybe an Ace or support ship (Jonus next to a Raider is devastating) and the other a sizeable glob of fighters. You can move on to 400 v 400 Team Epic from there. I do think Multiplayer is the name of the game here, but whatever suits you.

Also all of the Epic ships have viable builds (in as much as anything is 'Viable' in Epic), so just go for what you like. A Missile Raider, Stress Transport, Support Transport, Carrier Gozanti, Bomber Carrier Gozanti, Suicide Transport, Sniper Corvette, and Broadside Corvette can all find a niche and slug it out with gusto once you know how to build them without overbuilding them. Small and Large ships with support abilities can make their Huge counterparts a LOT more effective, and may be better point sinks than just coating your Corvette in repair robots.

I'm looking for ways to try out Epic, and I already know a little about missions. The problem has been finding players who will break away from the 100 point 'normal,' and finally forcing myself out of it as a requirement for continued play myself, and I've only reached that point now.

Keep trying! Maybe try organising an Epic weekend where you start playing at 10am and go until the mid afternoon, with a break for lunch?

I'm looking for ways to try out Epic, and I already know a little about missions. The problem has been finding players who will break away from the 100 point 'normal,' and finally forcing myself out of it as a requirement for continued play myself, and I've only reached that point now.

Keep trying! Maybe try organising an Epic weekend where you start playing at 10am and go until the mid afternoon, with a break for lunch?

Also, if there is a Facebook group or something your area uses, I would recommend asking people that want to play Epic. We have a few game stores in our area and some people are more "at home" players who don't normally come to the game store. When I've posted that I will be at x game store at y time, I've had people show up just to play Epic. Or....Cinematic.

Personally, I say Epic, but mean Cinematic. I'm not really interested in a competitive Epic game, other than it just might make it easier to find more Cinematic players. Epic can just mean more points to try to break the system if you are going for uber competitive games.

This is a game of x-wing:

This is your game on epic:

The main problem as I see it with X-Wing is that FFG doesn't do enough to encourage other ways to play. For every player who thrives on the hyper-competitive environment of tournament play, there are three who despise it and just want to play their favorite ships, not buy obscure ships that were in one or two comic books or a novel that they've never heard of let alone read.

That's not really fair. They regularly release giant ships that exist soley for the purpose of providing other ways to play. They even put in things to encourage diehard tournament players to give them a try. More importantly though, they go out of their way to make sure people CAN play with their favorite ships and have worked really really hard to keep them from getting left behind. That players tend to focus on standard play has more to do with the way games act to build a sense of community in the first place.

Standard play is what lets communities really thrive. It creates that universal language that lets anyone become part of the group by showing up on game night and agreeing to what we call this game. When players try to redefine it; create their own version of what they believe is more fair or whatever, it breaks down that openness. In many ways, game stores have become the torchbearers for arcades with that same ability to build a community upon the rules of the game.

And honestly, tournament play just defines what is inefficient; it doesn't create the inefficiencies on its own. The HWK is my favorite craft in all of Star Wars, but I'm not going to blame tournaments for its terrible die, woeful stats, and ridiculous pilot costs. The sense that things aren't good enough simply comes from there being more options than can fit into a list and enough testing to find which ones are slightly better than others. If Epic was more popular, we'd have pretty strict guidelines of what should be on the table. Cinematic play is in some ways worse; where, given real popularity, I suspect many of the scenarios would be pretty well solved for one side or another.

The nature of a head to head game is one in which someone always loses. There's no real way to approach that in a non-competitive manner. It IS possible to maintain a casual atmosphere in a competitive setting though and I find accepting the distinction crucial to really enjoying any game over the long term.

If both players are experienced but one does't want to bring an epic ship I've worked it out that a 10% (for games 300-400) lowered cap for the player no running an epic ship is pretty close to fair. Epic ships just don't do it as well at that point cost. When you start running games up over 400 the ships begin to scale better. I truly believe the ideal point level for epic is actually 400 as the ships sit right now.

Do the overlapping rules for the huge ships create a negative play experience? If so, how do you deal with or house rule those rules? I know the two times I played Epic, I was pretty disappointed in losing my small and large ships to only get one/two measly red die to try and damage the offending huge ship. It's the only thing I am not fond of with Epic play.

Do the overlapping rules for the huge ships create a negative play experience? If so, how do you deal with or house rule those rules? I know the two times I played Epic, I was pretty disappointed in losing my small and large ships to only get one/two measly red die to try and damage the offending huge ship. It's the only thing I am not fond of with Epic play.

I don't think they do but everyone is different. Avoiding a big ship is pretty easy if you don't fly head first into them! Granted they can catch you with a fish tail but if you slow roll them from behind (or better yet the side) they eat it pretty hard.

They're incredibly slow and non-reactive. Just steer clear of them and it shouldn't come up. In fact, its sort of a necessary offset for the fact they really don't deal well with models at Range 1.

Do the overlapping rules for the huge ships create a negative play experience? If so, how do you deal with or house rule those rules? I know the two times I played Epic, I was pretty disappointed in losing my small and large ships to only get one/two measly red die to try and damage the offending huge ship. It's the only thing I am not fond of with Epic play.

One of the best parts of epic is revealing a dial that sends you full speed ahead and shouting "CHOO CHOO" as you run over the puny baby ships before you.