I'm new to EotE and only have a few sessions under my belt but I can't help but feel that the skills part of the game needs a penalty if you don't have any ranks at all in a skill. An extra purple, one black, upgrade a purple, something. I opted to have a 4 in a stat so I've run in to an issue where other characters are looking to me to do things a decent way outside of my background because I get 4 dice in it. I have no ranks, no 'narative' training but that is how the system works. I'd feel better about it if I had some sort of additional setback I guess. I spose I'm just too used to more traditional systems where a non-trained penalty is almost always incurred. So what do you guys do? Leave it as is or add in some negative dice in some form for skills with absolutely no ranks?

Keeping the Peace has a few suggestions about a character learning as they go. It could be reverse engineered to allow for untrained penalties, I guess.

I leave it as it is.

Not being able to get Triumphs is punishment enough.

We have a Commander with Presence 6 who lacks some face skills. 6 greens will still get decent successes, but no Triumphs. Likewise an Ace with a high Agility will naturally be good at shooting even without Ranged skills.

Why penalise someone for just having natural aptitude?

And note that the latest incarnation of D&D gives you a bonus for training, not a penalty for not having training.

I played in a game where the GM handed out setback dice if you weren't trained in a skill. It felt piddling and annoying, and didn't really enhance my game experience at all.

The penalty for not having any ranks in a skill is that you don't have any ranks in a skill. That's it. Otherwise, you are pedantically penalizing players for -- what, exactly?

The penalty for not having training in a skill is you're not as good at it as someone who does. It doesn't need to be any more than that.

Some restrictions I have are any Difficulty higher than Easy on a Knowledge check requires at least a rank in the applicable skill at my table.

Only PCs with at least one rank in Medicine can attempt to treat critical injuries, and a rank of skill is required to assist with treating critical injuries.

Avoiding stellar debris/phenomena requires training in Piloting.

There is precedent in the game imo as using a jet pack requires a rank of Pilot(Planet).

The penalty is actually there. An Ability die is worse than a Proficiency die, but raw talent still counts for something. Putting it in perspective a bit:

If it's something they literally have no idea how to do, then increase the difficulty. For some checks, you could make it impossible (5 Difficulty dice and a Destiny Point expended). For others, you could maybe throw in a setback die or three. It really depends on what they're trying to do. But I wouldn't encode a hard "untrained penalty." You want your players to take risks and be Star Warsy. Be that farmboy that kills the Death Star, or the Jedi Knight who hates flying but still gets behind the stick of a fighter, or the ex-stormtrooper with a lightsaber that tries to fend off a dark Jedi. Slapping them with a further penalty is really just antithetical to the system and the genre, IMHO.

TL;DR: if it's just a "lack of training," then I think that getting by on raw talent should be something that is not only possible, but encouraged. For tasks that would be considered impossible without proper training, well then you have the Impossible Difficulty

I've been thinking about this too. I feel like the best way to add a subtle penalty, is to just upgrade it once. I feel like being untrained in something means you're much more likely to not know how to put back a piece of technology, or properly suture a wound. I don't care how smart you are, I'm going to be worried if a nuclear physicist is trying to heal my critical injury, Or my doctor is trying to repair a hyperdrive.

Also the upgrade from a purple to a red doesn't increase the chances of failure that much. It just adds that opportunity for a critical complication.

Of you feel something needs to be done, then a single difficulty upgrade is the way I would go. But i also wouldn't do it in every situation, just those where the skill application in question is highly specialized.

I've been thinking about this too. I feel like the best way to add a subtle penalty, is to just upgrade it once. I feel like being untrained in something means you're much more likely to not know how to put back a piece of technology, or properly suture a wound. I don't care how smart you are, I'm going to be worried if a nuclear physicist is trying to heal my critical injury, Or my doctor is trying to repair a hyperdrive.

Also the upgrade from a purple to a red doesn't increase the chances of failure that much. It just adds that opportunity for a critical complication.

Of you feel something needs to be done, then a single difficulty upgrade is the way I would go. But i also wouldn't do it in every situation, just those where the skill application in question is highly specialized.

Unless the rules called for it, I wouldn't do this without first spending Destiny Point. Get the Destiny pool flowing back and forth, and spend that DP for the difficulty upgrade because "something could go really wrong here due to your lack of expertise in this particular field..."

I leave it as it is. I am not a huge fan of house rules to begin with, and when people bring the baggage from other games, I hate to say it, but it does rub me the wrong way. I have dealt with too many people that carried the mentality of "well it worked this way in system X." Not trying to be mean here, just explains my view.

I say leave it as is. If the game was designed a certain way, and it does work pretty good, way mess with it, just because in other system they had something different. Give the game time, you may understand it more in the future!!

One thing I can suggest, is make sure you use the setback dice liberally. I'm not saying throw in a Setback because they are not trained in a skill, but make sure that you are always using the Setback dice. There are many great Talents that get rid of Setback Dice, and that is one huge distinction between many characters that have the same skills. Those talents really come in handy, and make a huge difference.

So I don't think you should make something "harder" just because they are not trained in it. It really doesn't make sense to me. The chance of failure shouldn't be greater from the lack of training, the chance of success should be lower due to a lower skill dice pool. The game designers already took all that into account when they designed it. But, if you really the need to change it, good luck.

You know, if the action at hand is completely outside of that character's wheelhouse - a caveman flying a fighter jet, for instance - I might throw a black or two at it. But generally I'll leave it alone.

Only in extreme circumstances. An Ewok who has never seen technology above stone age technology jumping on a speeder bike? Difficulty getting upgraded....possibly twice. That sort of thing. But not a penalty just for your usual "I haven't been trained in that" kind of stuff.

This really places too much emphasis on the skill ranks and misses all the secondary effects coming from Talents that add Boosts or strip off Setback. As others have pointed out, simply lacking ranks in the skill means the player is just rolling Ability dice which are only marginally better than Difficulty (yes, the dice have a slight bias towards the positive dice over the negative dice). That's penalty enough, especially since they are probably dealing with a number of Setback that they don't have Talents to remove.

Threat already allow for the negatives you'd want, like it takes the player longer to accomplish a given task, they take Strain from the stress of getting through the action, etc...

Lacking the Medicine skill isn't that big of a deal in a world with thinking machines and ships that can travel to the stars like someone taking a weekend road trip. The sensors help with getting the medicine to the right place, but due to nerves (Threat results in Strain) it takes the player longer to get it done, putting his poor patient in more pain.

There's a talent in Force and Destiny called "Comprehend Technology," and the text of that talent kinda supports the notion that unskilled action is really just that...you simply don't get the benefit of skill ranks. (with the talent, the Force user can make it so that their Force Rating stands in for skill ranks when using the item)

Now let's say you come across an object, and you have no idea what it is. It doesn't matter what kind of raw talent or trained skill you have; you can't use the thing because you don't know how to use the thing.

That's different than the Ewoks though..they'd seen the speeder bikes and blaster rifles in use. So even though they'd had no real training on them, they still knew what they were used for, and thus were able to use them (at least on a basic level). So for that instance, I'd say setbacks apply for being a member of a primitive culture with little-to-no previous exposure to this technology. But difficulty upgrades, nah. Spend the Destiny Point if you wanna throw the red dice at your player just for trying to use something they've never used before.

Ever notice how the heroes and villains in Star Wars just seem to know how to do everything, fly a spaceship, ride swoops and bikes, shoot, do mechanical repairs on ships full of advanced electronics, how to disable gigantic tractor beams with a few switches.

Non-proficiency penalties are NOT part of SW, never will be. The PCs are damned heroes. They get stuff done.

They show up just in the nick of time!

Our house rule depends on the skill and whether the GM wants to take the time to mess with it. However, here is the general guideline.

Default skill rolls (ability only, no training) are normal for class skills. Basic training in class skills means that the character is familiar with every class skill..

For non-class skills that don’t require specific training, the difficulty is upgraded by one to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs mean something embarrassing has happened. All skills not listed in the next paragraph are included.

For non-class skills that clearly require some specialized training (Computers, Gunnery, Lightsaber, Mechanics, Medicine, Piloting – Planetary, Piloting – Space, Ranged – Heavy, Ranged – Light, Streetwise), the difficulty is upgraded by two to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs generally mean something really bad has happened since the character doesn’t have any experience to guide what they are doing.

Our house rule depends on the skill and whether the GM wants to take the time to mess with it. However, here is the general guideline.

Default skill rolls (ability only, no training) are normal for class skills. Basic training in class skills means that the character is familiar with every class skill..

For non-class skills that don’t require specific training, the difficulty is upgraded by one to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs mean something embarrassing has happened. All skills not listed in the next paragraph are included.

For non-class skills that clearly require some specialized training (Computers, Gunnery, Lightsaber, Mechanics, Medicine, Piloting – Planetary, Piloting – Space, Ranged – Heavy, Ranged – Light, Streetwise), the difficulty is upgraded by two to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs generally mean something really bad has happened since the character doesn’t have any experience to guide what they are doing.

Which is nice and all, but this is missing a problem. Namely the lead in paragraph about skills.

"Even a single rank in a skill represents a significant amount of time spent learning and practicing its use"

So, with your houserule, someone driving to/from work every day is putting themselves at a big risk (2 upgrades mean that despair has come onto the table, even for tasks that are simple), yet 12.5% of people don't get into accidents or other big issues each day (running out of fuel, suffering a breakdown, etc...). That is everyone uses Piloting - Planetary in their everyday lives, even if it isn't a "career" skill.

"Even a single rank in a skill represents a significant amount of time spent learning and practicing its use"

So, with your houserule, someone driving to/from work every day is putting themselves at a big risk (2 upgrades mean that despair has come onto the table, even for tasks that are simple), yet 12.5% of people don't get into accidents or other big issues each day (running out of fuel, suffering a breakdown, etc...). That is everyone uses Piloting - Planetary in their everyday lives, even if it isn't a "career" skill.

I agree with the intention of your post (completely) but not the example you use (driving). Quickly looking up some stats, fighter pilots get in around 180 - 250 hours per year. The average 16 year old in the US gets in about 273 hours per year driving. So there's an argument using the definition above that US drivers, by the time they are adults, have actually earned a skill level.

This only leaped out at me due to an old RPG discussion. PCs arrived at a Traveller world where due to the topography, the average citizen had Pilot-1. A world where everyone is a skilled jet pilot?! Impossible! We discussed how it would be like for aliens coming to Earth and being surprised at finding a world where there are millions of people with Driver-1 skill due to being forced to drive daily. "Oh my goodness they get in land machines and drive down highways at high speeds only a few feet from each other! Daily! And only a few accidents! We've found a world of master drivers!"

If you really want to, the system suggest everywhere to use setback dice for sub-optimal circumstances. Though no triumph in itself is a huge setback.

Our house rule depends on the skill and whether the GM wants to take the time to mess with it. However, here is the general guideline.

Default skill rolls (ability only, no training) are normal for class skills. Basic training in class skills means that the character is familiar with every class skill..

For non-class skills that don’t require specific training, the difficulty is upgraded by one to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs mean something embarrassing has happened. All skills not listed in the next paragraph are included.

For non-class skills that clearly require some specialized training (Computers, Gunnery, Lightsaber, Mechanics, Medicine, Piloting – Planetary, Piloting – Space, Ranged – Heavy, Ranged – Light, Streetwise), the difficulty is upgraded by two to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs generally mean something really bad has happened since the character doesn’t have any experience to guide what they are doing.

Which is nice and all, but this is missing a problem. Namely the lead in paragraph about skills.

"Even a single rank in a skill represents a significant amount of time spent learning and practicing its use"

So, with your houserule, someone driving to/from work every day is putting themselves at a big risk (2 upgrades mean that despair has come onto the table, even for tasks that are simple), yet 12.5% of people don't get into accidents or other big issues each day (running out of fuel, suffering a breakdown, etc...). That is everyone uses Piloting - Planetary in their everyday lives, even if it isn't a "career" skill.

Excellent point. As another post pointed out, every American has training in operating a standard automobile. I would certainly allow a character from a civilized world to be able to operate a basic aircar the same way that I would allow them to use any class skill without training. In fact, I would be fairly generous in allowing any reasonable argument that justified a background allowing a default roll.

However, to stick with the same example, Piloting - Planetary is a very broad skill. I don't know about you, but if I tried to drive an 18 wheeler or even worse a tank to work, it seems that the odds of something bad happening would be significantly greater than 12.5%.

Likewise, I am an Electrical Engineer; however, if I attempted surgery to correct a critical wound the odds of something very bad happening would be terrifying.

"Even a single rank in a skill represents a significant amount of time spent learning and practicing its use"

So, with your houserule, someone driving to/from work every day is putting themselves at a big risk (2 upgrades mean that despair has come onto the table, even for tasks that are simple), yet 12.5% of people don't get into accidents or other big issues each day (running out of fuel, suffering a breakdown, etc...). That is everyone uses Piloting - Planetary in their everyday lives, even if it isn't a "career" skill.

I agree with the intention of your post (completely) but not the example you use (driving). Quickly looking up some stats, fighter pilots get in around 180 - 250 hours per year. The average 16 year old in the US gets in about 273 hours per year driving. So there's an argument using the definition above that US drivers, by the time they are adults, have actually earned a skill level.

This only leaped out at me due to an old RPG discussion. PCs arrived at a Traveller world where due to the topography, the average citizen had Pilot-1. A world where everyone is a skilled jet pilot?! Impossible! We discussed how it would be like for aliens coming to Earth and being surprised at finding a world where there are millions of people with Driver-1 skill due to being forced to drive daily. "Oh my goodness they get in land machines and drive down highways at high speeds only a few feet from each other! Daily! And only a few accidents! We've found a world of master drivers!"

I guess that depends on your definition of "significant". There is one definition of "proficient" that I've heard, which is that it takes about 10,000 hours to become proficient at a given skill. By your example, a driver would take over 40 years to become proficient. Even longer though, because most people develop their driving habits in their first year of driving and just continue at that level for the rest of their time.

So, someone that is really proficient isn't the guy driving to/from work or to/from his various basic errands, but someone like a police officer who has gone to the academy and been shown how to do things like Pit Maneuvers, or the proper ways to deal with chases/pursuits. These are drivers that know how to drift and control their vehicles. That is where 1 Rank or more starts to show up based on the FFG wording of the skills section.

I don't know the Traveller system, so using its ratings really isn't all that meaningful here. Heck. I've gone to a gun range with no experience ever handling a firearm and in less than 15 minutes was able to hit a target at 30-50 feet about 80-90% of the time with a pistol and the same for a target at 100+ feet with a rifle. Does that now mean I have 1 rank in Ranged - Light? No, it means I was shooting at something in short to medium (1 to 2 Difficulty) range while taking the time to aim (2 Boost) and having an average or better Agility (2 or 3). So, my skill roll was probably GGGBBPP or GGBBPP. No Setback as the lighting was good, I wasn't under stress (no one was shooting at me or forcing me to shoot).

Yes, fighter pilots don't spend thousands of hours in the air each year, but they do spend more time training and going through briefings. Ever watched Top Gun? They probably spend 30+ hours on the ground for 3 hours in the air. Talking about the flights, what went right, what went wrong, what should be improved, etc... Same thing with any athlete. They spend a lot of time watching the games vs the time they spend actually playing.

Our house rule depends on the skill and whether the GM wants to take the time to mess with it. However, here is the general guideline.

Default skill rolls (ability only, no training) are normal for class skills. Basic training in class skills means that the character is familiar with every class skill..

For non-class skills that don’t require specific training, the difficulty is upgraded by one to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs mean something embarrassing has happened. All skills not listed in the next paragraph are included.

For non-class skills that clearly require some specialized training (Computers, Gunnery, Lightsaber, Mechanics, Medicine, Piloting – Planetary, Piloting – Space, Ranged – Heavy, Ranged – Light, Streetwise), the difficulty is upgraded by two to represent an absolute lack of familiarity. Despairs generally mean something really bad has happened since the character doesn’t have any experience to guide what they are doing.

Which is nice and all, but this is missing a problem. Namely the lead in paragraph about skills.

"Even a single rank in a skill represents a significant amount of time spent learning and practicing its use"

So, with your houserule, someone driving to/from work every day is putting themselves at a big risk (2 upgrades mean that despair has come onto the table, even for tasks that are simple), yet 12.5% of people don't get into accidents or other big issues each day (running out of fuel, suffering a breakdown, etc...). That is everyone uses Piloting - Planetary in their everyday lives, even if it isn't a "career" skill.

Excellent point. As another post pointed out, every American has training in operating a standard automobile. I would certainly allow a character from a civilized world to be able to operate a basic aircar the same way that I would allow them to use any class skill without training. In fact, I would be fairly generous in allowing any reasonable argument that justified a background allowing a default roll.

However, to stick with the same example, Piloting - Planetary is a very broad skill. I don't know about you, but if I tried to drive an 18 wheeler or even worse a tank to work, it seems that the odds of something bad happening would be significantly greater than 12.5%.

Likewise, I am an Electrical Engineer; however, if I attempted surgery to correct a critical wound the odds of something very bad happening would be terrifying.

You might have "trouble" for a bit when you first start driving the large truck or tank, but unless you're trying to be Tim the "Toolman" Taylor and immediately just go racing through a crowded area, you'll figure the controls out pretty quick and be able to handle getting it to go forward, turn, stop, etc... Heck, you probably had the same amount of trouble when you first learned to drive a car, or ride a bike or even back when you first learned to walk.

I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to just perform surgery, but Medicine for treating Critical Injuries in FFG is more like first aid. With the advent of medicines like Bacta, which is in almost everything including basic bandages, what you're really doing to help treat the Critical Injury is getting the wound wrapped, and probably pulling stuff up on a pad for things like setting a bone (something you can be taught or shown really quickly). So, the system is already handling surgery by the fact that doing it won't be a simple task (AFB, not sure what the difficulties are for dealing with some of the Crits).

The crits range in difficulty, depending on how high you roll on the percentile dice (with any added modifiers). They are grouped by Easy, Average, Hard, etc on the critical injury table. And yes, especially after getting into the Hard+ territory, you've gotta have someone that's really smart roll really well on the dice to actually succeed (and not generate any Threat, which causes complications). That's assuming that one has the proper equipment to perform the surgery in the first place