when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

It might be your opinion that dogs are reptiles. You would be wrong, just like you are about the models being necessary in X-Wing, and I would hope that someone pointed that out just like the person you are criticizing here. It takes some stones to say something dumb and the jump on the person who points out that you did not think before you spoke.

I think you also, are far too invested in this. You and the other guy need to just chill, man.

So, by "far too imvested invested," you mean casually clicking on this thread while I waited for my dog to finish his breakfast? I guess that means that anyone who is actually discussing this, yourself included, has, relative to me, invested their entire purpose of existence into this thread.

Again, you are showing that you are not thinking. Think first, man.

Jup everyone clicking this topic is far to much invested by now, because you made it a ******* youtube comment thread. Someone in the internet was wrong and you have to correct him over and over and over again. Sure, he was wrong, but you were the guy who brought his thread down the comment sections level with your stupid accusation that he was lying. Different views, different opinions, different results. And not all of them need to be accurate.

Have a good day, a fun and light topic became worthless to watch, I am out.

I prefer to think of X-Wing as a "pew-pew your opponent to death" game. Seriously; what you call it doesn't matter.

You could remove so many physical components from the (any) game and still play the same mechanics but why would you want to? And the same could be said about most games. Learn the rules, get a pen and paper and a few bits to represent some components and off you go. If we go waaaay back to games like chess; it's not like you actually need a knight to be represented by a mini horsey is it? Just something you can identify as not a rook, queen etc.

But that's not why we play it, is it? It's Star Wars!!!! The minis are nice and the cards are essentially an ever expanding rule book. This is the product on offer and no one forces you to play with upgrade cards or ships on the pegs (unless it's an FFG sanctioned event). The wonderful thing about life in first world countries is we have a huge amount of freedom compared to much of the world. I mean; you don't even need the CORRECT base tiles. Simply mark them and reference it to a hand written bit of paper with different stats. It's only for the fire arcs really...

Whatever is written on the box doesn't stop you forming your own opinion. Call it a card game, miniatures game, ardvaark hunting game, Keith or whatever. The game play will remain the same regardless of it's label.

In a nutshell; you can do away with both the cards and minis but why? They're both beautiful. Except for the YV-666. Ugly looking thing

Now to maintain the RULES as they are written the cards are just as important as the miniature. Maybe you can ignore requirements for the cards and print your list but then you could just print the base tiles you need to go on the bases and not worry about the miniatures used either.

That's what I said: You don't need the cards more than the miniature.

If your argument that card is more important than miniature (that's what seems to be your argument when you say: '' while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost.'' )is that you can play without miniatures, I just pointed out that you can also play just fine without the cards. Both are an important part of the game IF you play competitively where they are both required: You can't participate in a tournament if you don't have the miniature and you can't either if you don't have the cards. But if you play casually, you could do without either of those. Play with only a printed list because you don't want to buy a ship only for a card? Sure why not. Play with only the base? Why not, if that's your thing... but I'm not sure you'll find a lot of opponent if you only play with ship base, while if you come with a printed list, I'm pretty sure most won't mind.

Saying that miniature is not an important part of a miniature game because you can replace the miniature by a token could be said about pretty much any miniature game. I've played a lot of various miniature game, and technically yes, they could be played without the miniatures. Would it be as fun? I personally think that it's part of their charm, remind me of my youth when I played with my toys. But they're not required, and neither are the cards. Unless you play competitively.

The pretty models only add to the visual appeal of the game; other stand ins could be used without affecting play. Now without the cards, or more appropriately what's on them, the game would not function. If asked to choose which is more important to playing X-Wing I will always need to side with the cards and what is on them instead of the big hunk of beautiful painted plastic that is the miniature. Without the cards, or whatever you want to replace them with, you'd do just as well buying micro-machines (granted this may be the low end) or any number of other lines to get you pretty models.

I get what you mean, but the same thing could be said about pretty much any miniature games: Anima Tactics, Heavy Gears, Warhammer, Necromunda, Axis Miniatures, etc. Every miniature in a miniature game could technically be replaced by tokens. But then you are removing the essence of the game. Most (I won't say everyone because there is always exceptions) buy into this game for the miniatures, not the cards. Remove the miniatures and suddenly the game won't sell anymore. Now remove the cards and put the text in a squad building book, like a codex, and you will continue to sell it. Miniatures is the essence of a miniature game, removing them would be to change completely the appeal of the game.

Now I'm not denying that card is as important as miniature when you play in a tournment, and people will buy some ships only for the cards, but it is not more important than the miniature in a miniature game. If miniature is not necessary, and I think you can at least agree that cards are not necessary (because the text could be found elsewhere or just copied because there is no more need for a physical copy of the card as there is for the miniature), should we say that X-Wing miniatures is a dice game before anything else because you do need the dice (or dice app)? I don't think so, a miniature game is still before anything else a miniature game. I'm not sure a lot of people would buy into X-Wing: the Tokens game.

But sure, mecanically speaking, the game would play the same without miniatures. It would also play the same if the text was written in a book instead of a card. Both are optional. Now try to convince a group to play without the miniatures. Try again without the cards. I can guess with which of those two options you might succeed to convince them.

You want a real hybrid of the two genre, try Imperial Assault the skirmish game, where you actually have to build a 15 card deck with your squad and you draw from it each turn. This I would agree that the cards are more necessary than the miniatures (heck, there is even some characters that come only as tokens unless you buy the individual pack).

I prefer to think of X-Wing as a "pew-pew your opponent to death" game. Seriously; what you call it doesn't matter.

You could remove so many physical components from the (any) game and still play the same mechanics but why would you want to? And the same could be said about most games. Learn the rules, get a pen and paper and a few bits to represent some components and off you go. If we go waaaay back to games like chess; it's not like you actually need a knight to be represented by a mini horsey is it? Just something you can identify as not a rook, queen etc.

But that's not why we play it, is it? It's Star Wars!!!! The minis are nice and the cards are essentially an ever expanding rule book. This is the product on offer and no one forces you to play with upgrade cards or ships on the pegs (unless it's an FFG sanctioned event). The wonderful thing about life in first world countries is we have a huge amount of freedom compared to much of the world. I mean; you don't even need the CORRECT base tiles. Simply mark them and reference it to a hand written bit of paper with different stats. It's only for the fire arcs really...

Whatever is written on the box doesn't stop you forming your own opinion. Call it a card game, miniatures game, ardvaark hunting game, Keith or whatever. The game play will remain the same regardless of it's label.

In a nutshell; you can do away with both the cards and minis but why? They're both beautiful. Except for the YV-666. Ugly looking thing

I would have agreed on everything you said but then you had to say that the YV is ugly. tsk... You sir, have no taste!

Neither cards nor models are needed. The cards however have the pilot abilities and such, so while it's all well and good if you know what cards do what, it's a lot easier to convince a new player that soontir fel can perform six maneuvers and always changes his attacks to 4 crit results if the card isn't there to disprove it than it is that he has 16 hull and 10 shields when that information is printed on his token.

I get what you mean, but the same thing could be said about pretty much any miniature games: Anima Tactics, Heavy Gears, Warhammer, Necromunda, Axis Miniatures, etc. Every miniature in a miniature game could technically be replaced by tokens. But then you are removing the essence of the game. Most (I won't say everyone because there is always exceptions) buy into this game for the miniatures, not the cards. Remove the miniatures and suddenly the game won't sell anymore. Now remove the cards and put the text in a squad building book, like a codex, and you will continue to sell it. Miniatures is the essence of a miniature game, removing them would be to change completely the appeal of the game.

Fwiw, even Infinity added some significant abstraction to its true LOS system in 3rd edition.

I get what you mean, but the same thing could be said about pretty much any miniature games: Anima Tactics, Heavy Gears, Warhammer, Necromunda, Axis Miniatures, etc. Every miniature in a miniature game could technically be replaced by tokens.

Skirmish war game.

It's a card game, the miniatures aren't needed for casual play

You can play X-Wing without the cards. What you can not do, is play it without the bases. You may not need a model on top the base, but the base is a 100% required component, and one of the few.

That alone makes it a miniature game, because as it's been pointed out many times, most miniature games don't actually require the miniatures. So the only working definition of miniature war game is one in which some sort of token is used to represent the units in the game.

In X-Wing the cards are effectively optional because you could replace them with a printed list.

In 40k, Flames of War, or Warmachine the models are optional, yes even in 40k. The true LoS is BS and everyone knows it. Because if that was actually the rule then putting the model on a raised base means they can see over obstacles that same exact model on a normal base couldn't.

In Warmachine they actually list the height to use based on the size of the base. In FoW the only thing that really matters is the base, everything is based on that.

So I would say xwing is a miniatures game like 40k the sole difference being the rules codex for xwing is displayed in the upgrade cards and base plate tokens. Rather than just show an interceptor model and you look in a book/try to remember the rules for it you just pick the rules out and place them next to the ship card. It's exactly like saying 'these ork boyz have 'eavy armor for a 4+ save' when you say soontir fel has push the limit. Difference is just in number of models and manner of diplaying upgrade/customization rules.

It's a miniatures game for no other reason than because you have things that have to be measured and moved around in a gaming space.

I've noticed that everyone who tries to claim this isn't a miniature game has had to use a definition that would exclude pretty much every other miniature game out there.

Any definition that excludes games like 40k, Flames of War, WFB, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, ect... Is quite simply not a valid definition.

Last time I checked there was no authority out there that defines what is or isn't a miniature game and only those who are defined as such by that body get to use that term.

So call it what you want, because it really doesn't change what the vast majority of people consider it. Or more importantly change how the game actually plays.

I get what you mean, but the same thing could be said about pretty much any miniature games: Anima Tactics, Heavy Gears, Warhammer, Necromunda, Axis Miniatures, etc. Every miniature in a miniature game could technically be replaced by tokens.

But some of those miniatures contain information that their bases do not have. The difference is that X-Wing's base token contain all necessary information for traking the ship. Popping an Interceptor off of Fel's stand doesn't leaving an information gap, but popping a Space Maring with a plasma gun off of its base does as the base does not say that he had a plasma gun, that he was a Tactical Marine, or what terrain he can see over.

I'll take your word for it regarding the LoS because it's been a very long while since I played 40k and I don't remember that part. Interesting to know that someone could abuse it by putting the miniature on bigger scenery base. But for the unit type, nothing stopping you from just writing it on a cardboard the same size of the real base of the unit.

At this point, no need to continue to argue since we both won't change point of view. I still consider X-Wing miniature game a miniature game before anything else because I would not play without them (there's a reason I'm not playing on Vassal) , but if you want to play without miniatures, I won't be stopping you. Feel free to do it if that's your thing. Just not with me, but since odds are we'll never meet, that should not be a problem.

But for the unit type, nothing stopping you from just writing it on a cardboard the same size of the real base of the unit.

If you are going to add/remove/modify components or rules, then you can make any game into any type that you want. 40k's bases do not contain unit types or any other information - X-Wing's do. The thread is about what the game is, not what it can be made into.

The point stands that removing the models from X-Wing will not change anything about the game other than the way that it looks. The same cannot be said for 40k and many other miniatures games.

Funny thing stirring this up is that it all depends on how things are defined. X-Wing needs its bases and cardboard bits. If this is what makes it a "miniatures game" then so be it. For randomness it uses a set of dice and a deck of cards which begs the question is it then a dice game or a card game? It also needs something to explain what things mean and all kinds of other things which is where the cards and books come it so what kind of game does that make? If you take away the cards and what is on them then you either must replace them or you have taken out a big chunk of the game.

The only thing I argue against being an essential part of playing the game is the model. It is certainly an important promotional tool that helps sell the game but replace them with micromachines or remove them all together and how the game plays is unchanged. I have nothing against the models but if someone when to a tournament and remove everyones models and play could continue to the end before the mob forms. Take away anything else and things would have to stop for some time before play could ever resume.

But for the unit type, nothing stopping you from just writing it on a cardboard the same size of the real base of the unit.

If you are going to add/remove/modify components or rules, then you can make any game into any type that you want. 40k's bases do not contain unit types or any other information - X-Wing's do. The thread is about what the game is, not what it can be made into.

The point stands that removing the models from X-Wing will not change anything about the game other than the way that it looks. The same cannot be said for 40k and many other miniatures games.

I'll take your word for it regarding the LoS because it's been a very long while since I played 40k and I don't remember that part. Interesting to know that someone could abuse it by putting the miniature on bigger scenery base.

The Golden Rule in 40k is to abuse the rules.

Okay, last time that I'm posting in this thread since I feel like I just keep repeating myself over and over again.

I said many times that I agree that the miniature is actually not needed. My point is that cards are not either. So if it's not a miniature game because miniature are not required, it's not a card game either.

Now, regarding the OP question: Is this a Miniatures game or a card game?

I'll answer (again) by asking myself the questions.

Would I still play this game if there was no miniatures? No.

Would I still play this game if there was no cards? Yes.

Would I accept to play against someone using only ship base with no miniatures? No.

Would I still play against someone bringing a printed copy of his list without cards? Yes.

For me at least, miniatures is part of the essence of this game, removing them would remove a part of the game that I love. If cards were to be removed and replaced by army book or any other way of building a team, like with this site: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build and then printing the list, I would not care one bit and continue playing the game. So for me at least, regardless of if they are actually needed (and I acknowledge many many times that they are not needed), X-Wing the Miniature game is still before anything else a miniature game.

Now, feel free to disagree with me, but that won't change my opinion on the matter.

Whether the mini is important or not is an irrelevant issue - the design of the game is what make it a minature game. X-Wing is a minature wargame, with hidden information mechanic, dice mechanic, and a card mechanic sub-systems.

Miniature wargame characteristics: Use of physical tokens to logically represent play piece. Play pieces maintain relative locations with other play pieces. Play pieces can in theory travel to any position on the play area. The physical token doesn't actully have to visually depict what the play piece is supposed to be at all; thus, being able to play the game with only the base does not mean X-Wing is NOT a miniature wargame - in X-Wing the base is the physical tokens that logically represents a play piece. This sort of game include Warhammer, Warmachine, Mage Knight etc.

Hidden information mechanic: Use of hidden information, revealed as the game is played. This is used only as a sub-system within the game - specifically movement when dials are revealed. Games with this mechanic includes Battleship, any card game where the player draws a hand, etc.

Dice mechanic: Use of dice of any type to determine a random outcome. This is used only as a sub-system within the game - mostly in combat and on some specific effects. Games with this mechanic include Craps, Battledice, most board games like Monopoly, Risk, etc.

Card mechanic: Use of a deck of cards that is shuffled to produce a random outcomes. Alternatively, a card may be flipped in process of the game to represent a change. This is used only as a sub-system within the game - specifically for battle damage for the first variation, and discarding of upgrades & dual cards for the second variation. Games with this mechanic range in complexity from Blackjack, M:tG, etc. for the former; and Go Fish & Dixit for the latter.

I've noticed that everyone who tries to claim this isn't a miniature game has had to use a definition that would exclude pretty much every other miniature game out there.

Any definition that excludes games like 40k, Flames of War, WFB, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, ect... Is quite simply not a valid definition.

Last time I checked there was no authority out there that defines what is or isn't a miniature game and only those who are defined as such by that body get to use that term.

So call it what you want, because it really doesn't change what the vast majority of people consider it. Or more importantly change how the game actually plays.

This game is based off WIngs of War, which I have the base set, and the miniatures were bought separately. Fundamentals is still using a piece of cardboard base to push around.

Can you play it without the cards?

Yes.

Can you play it without the miniatures? (ie. the bases, not the actual miniatures. You could play any mini's game with just bases.)

No.

So, there you go... minis game. (with cards for extra rules and upgrades)

A long time ago, in a galaxy full of 56k modems, one sunny day a guy argued in one Advanced Squad Leader forum that nowhere in the Rules was written than ASL is played with D6 dices. There are 18653456 references to dice rolls in the rulebook, but not what kind of dice. The Basic game box, Beyond valor, includes 4d6. He wanted to play with D4 dices, in Tournaments

After 84 pages of heated arguments (loaded at 56k rate ) one game designer wrote...

"Sometimes the obvious is difficult to speak about. Do not feed the troll". Amen