The timing rules for abilities and combos are straight out of card games. The miniatures themselves aren't even integral gameplay components, just the base with its printed firing arcs.

Do you even play the game, or any miniature game for that matter?

The miniatures in miniature games never actually matter. You could play a whole game of 40k without a single model on the table, as long as the bases are marked in some way so you know unit belongs on it.

The timing rules are straight out of card games? Last time I checked I couldn't draw a extra card from my deck and use it to counter your shot with an interrupt or instant. The only reason the timing is similar is because unlike most other miniature games X-Wing isn't igoyougo.

The core mechanic of X-Wing is moving your ships around the table to attack the other guys ship. It has nothing in common with a CCG's core mechanics, which is about drawing and playing cards.

Last time I played a CCG or LCG, where on the table my cards were really didn't matter much.

A miniatures game.

The cards are for tracking purposes, like the record sheets in Battletech.

I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't true in other games.

I didn't think you did. But I'm saying that the 'deck building' mechanic isn't really unique to deck building games. It's been part of miniature games longer than MtG has been around.

The timing rules for abilities and combos are straight out of card games. The miniatures themselves aren't even integral gameplay components, just the base with its printed firing arcs.

The miniatures in miniature games never actually matter.

Some games use True Line of Sight, but the less said about that the better.

The timing rules for abilities and combos are straight out of card games. The miniatures themselves aren't even integral gameplay components, just the base with its printed firing arcs.

Do you even play the game, or any miniature game for that matter?

The miniatures in miniature games never actually matter. You could play a whole game of 40k without a single model on the table, as long as the bases are marked in some way so you know unit belongs on it.

The timing rules are straight out of card games? Last time I checked I couldn't draw a extra card from my deck and use it to counter your shot with an interrupt or instant. The only reason the timing is similar is because unlike most other miniature games X-Wing isn't igoyougo.

The core mechanic of X-Wing is moving your ships around the table to attack the other guys ship. It has nothing in common with a CCG's core mechanics, which is about drawing and playing cards.

Last time I played a CCG or LCG, where on the table my cards were really didn't matter much.

There are a number of minis rules where the miniature itself is integral in determining line of sight, percentage of cover, facing, etc... in X-wing the token is the only thing in play. The number of steps involved in resolving the various phases (attacker rolls dice-> defender mods attackers dice-> attacker mods dice-> defender rolls dice -> attacker mods defenders dice-> defender mods dice, determine when special rules from various cards occur at each step and evaluate which order in which they occur, apply Crackshot, etc...) resembles card games far more than it does the bulk of the miniatures games I've played and read (which is a great number).

There are a number of minis rules where the miniature itself is integral in determining line of sight, percentage of cover, facing, etc... in X-wing the token is the only thing in play. The number of steps involved in resolving the various phases (attacker rolls dice-> defender mods attackers dice-> attacker mods dice-> defender rolls dice -> attacker mods defenders dice-> defender mods dice, determine when special rules from various cards occur at each step and evaluate which order in which they occur, apply Crackshot, etc...) resembles card games far more than it does the bulk of the miniatures games I've played and read (which is a great number).

Most minis games have more timing window rules than people are aware of. Warmachine for example has 3 distinct, branching phases a model goes through from the time it receives damage to the point it is removed from the table. Some of them define these windows well, which allows for complex interactions to be resolved consistently without argument. Some of them don't bother to define the timing windows their rules create, which results in a lot of needless arguing among players.

The timing rules for abilities and combos are straight out of card games. The miniatures themselves aren't even integral gameplay components, just the base with its printed firing arcs.

The miniatures in miniature games never actually matter.

Some games use True Line of Sight, but the less said about that the better.

and yet every time I see it I so desperately want it to work. Just... you know... mini's can't change stance.

There are a number of minis rules where the miniature itself is integral in determining line of sight percentage of cover, facing, etc...

And a number of them that don't. So your argument is either that none of them are miniature games or else it simply falls apart. Because if you claim that X-Wing isn't a miniature game because only the base matters, then 40k, FoW, and a lot other games aren't miniature games either.

resembles card games far more than it does the bulk of the miniatures games I've played and read (which is a great number).

That's because most mini games have one player activate their whole army, move, shoot, assault, ect.. then the other player does. Rather than each player taking a single action and then passing play to the other person.

Also I've never played a CCG or LCG where dice was a major factor. But the idea of both sides doing things to modify the results of a given combat is hardly unique to card games.

In fact there isn't a singe part of X-Wing that truly resembles the play in a typical LCG or CCG. At no point do I use an ability to go through my list to find another ability I want to use. There's never a case where I have to hope I draw the ability I want to use, ect...

And again, I've never played a single card game where the physical location of a card actually matters.

The new VS system has a bit of that (location of cards mattering).

A hybrid minis/dice/card system would look a lot more like Imperial Assault, Forbidden Stars or Rebellion, to be honest. Even those are really far from a pure card game.

While we're on the topic, is Warhammer Quest: adventure card game a card game, or a dice game? That's a far more narrow question than X-Wing (or Armada). These are pretty clearly miniatures games.

There are a number of minis rules where the miniature itself is integral in determining line of sight percentage of cover, facing, etc...

And a number of them that don't. So your argument is either that none of them are miniature games or else it simply falls apart. Because if you claim that X-Wing isn't a miniature game because only the base matters, then 40k, FoW, and a lot other games aren't miniature games either.

resembles card games far more than it does the bulk of the miniatures games I've played and read (which is a great number).

That's because most mini games have one player activate their whole army, move, shoot, assault, ect.. then the other player does. Rather than each player taking a single action and then passing play to the other person.Also I've never played a CCG or LCG where dice was a major factor. But the idea of both sides doing things to modify the results of a given combat is hardly unique to card games.In fact there isn't a singe part of X-Wing that truly resembles the play in a typical LCG or CCG. At no point do I use an ability to go through my list to find another ability I want to use. There's never a case where I have to hope I draw the ability I want to use, ect...And again, I've never played a single card game where the physical location of a card actually matters.

Again SWCCG. Position of cards definitely mattered. Of course there were no dice or counters of any type either. Just two decks facing off in an extremely convoluted set of rules.

Again SWCCG.

Never played that. But the point stands. In X-Wing like Warhammer 40k, where the base is is what matters most. Playing the game is about putting that base in the best possible position you can.

It's about where the base is physically, which is not true of most card games. Which is true of games like 40k, FoW and lots others, the only thing in the that really matters is the base, and the model is just there for appearance.

Even for SWCCG I doubt that the exact location of the card mattered, so that if the card was 2mm closer to one edge of the table you couldn't do something to it.

But in say MtG or the various LCG's i've tried... What matters is what cards I have in my hand, and what cards I have on the table, but unlike a miniature game the exact location of them doesn't matter. In theory you could play those games without the cards at all, if you could make a list of what's in your deck and randomize it, you wouldn't actually need the cards themselves.

The same can not be said of X-Wing or other miniature games because the location of the base is what everything else in the game is based on.

FFG declared a cardboard attrition war on forests long ago

Yashima is an interesting hybrid. It's really a card game (with no real deck building) but all the cards you play effect an area around a figure you maneuver on a board.

Miniature game with cards that add a lot of customization.

Half the fun of the game for me is what options I can come up with. I have never run the same list twice in a store. Most of my squads have some sort of theme whether cinematic or around a type of ability. My goal is to collect one of each (limits list options and cards but allows the ability to use anything out there) and I have been able to casually play competitively in FLGS kits or SC's. Heck, I took 2nd in a 30 odd person SC.

I think most would agree that the glorious models are why people buy the product. But then they find the cards almost overwhelming and can (for some people) kinda kill the fun of other less fiddly miniatures games.

I'd want to see some kind of evidence for the assumption that "most" buy the game for the models and find the idea of upgrades overwhelming, and I'd definitely want to see evidence that other tabletop minis games are less fiddly.

Allow me to introduce you to my friends. They did, in fact, buy just the core set and falcon. Then they realized "oh, we have to figure out squads instead of playing something prebuilt? This game is hard..." Leaving me all alone with my minis and no one to play with. You know what I do for fun? I strategize, I look at the cards, find combos, and figure out how to make it more efficient. It's the only way I can relax most of the time. This game isn't for everyone. If you find the cards and combos hard, I suggest you play another game, or just play casual with friends. If you think these cards are hard, you should try playing hero clix! XD

I think most would agree that the glorious models are why people buy the product. But then they find the cards almost overwhelming and can (for some people) kinda kill the fun of other less fiddly miniatures games.

I'd want to see some kind of evidence for the assumption that "most" buy the game for the models and find the idea of upgrades overwhelming, and I'd definitely want to see evidence that other tabletop minis games are less fiddly.

Allow me to introduce you to my friends. They did, in fact, buy just the core set and falcon. Then they realized "oh, we have to figure out squads instead of playing something prebuilt? This game is hard..." Leaving me all alone with my minis and no one to play with. You know what I do for fun? I strategize, I look at the cards, find combos, and figure out how to make it more efficient. It's the only way I can relax most of the time. This game isn't for everyone. If you find the cards and combos hard, I suggest you play another game, or just play casual with friends. If you think these cards are hard, you should try playing hero clix! XD

Heroclix..... now that's a game that is hard to get people into. I sold all my Heroclix to buy into Imperial Assault, and I'm VERY happy I did!

Some people, notably FFG in particular, really WANT this game to be a card game/miniatures game hybrid.

But, for game-play, the cards are non-essential. Hell, the miniatures are also non-essential, you really just need the bases, but then that's true of a lot of miniatures games.

You can play this game without the cards, by replacing the cards with a written or printed list, or by simply viewing your squad on a screen. Having the cards on the table in front of you is only required in tournament rules and is only required to try and sell more ships. The only irreplaceable function the rules serve is to provide a copy of the rules, but this is probably their least used function.

Try playing just generic pilots with no upgrades, or at best maybe just one or two generic upgrades (missiles or astromechs). Is it still fun for you?

The "min-max" of the upgrades is certainly exploitable and you can end up with some wacky combos. But when you start down this path the game does become more of a "card combo" game and feels less like a dogfight in the Star Wars universe where pilots are doing weird shennanigans that make little sense on a dogfighting game. Basically I like to keep the theme alive.... Why do we even have Palpatine in X-Wing when he isn'y even in Armada?

It becomes more like a card game when you see your opponents list and sigh... "Oh gee.... that combo again...."

Usually, when I put together a list, I start with a model. Not a pilot, not a dial, a model. And from there I expand.

Though I might also start with a single upgrade card and build around that.

I just went to get a whisky and saw my Mist Hunter standing below the Corvette and it looked great there. Very much a rag tag fleet looking for Earth. Because life here began out there.

So now I want to build a Battlestar Galactica fleet.

Last time I played a CCG or LCG, where on the table my cards were really didn't matter much.

Oh there is notch's scrolls and then there is Chaos Reborn, which is an awesome card game.

Oh and to get a little bit irony into the topic:

I present you Wings of War, card game or mini-game?

I'd want to see some kind of evidence for the assumption that "most" buy the game for the models and find the idea of upgrades overwhelming, and I'd definitely want to see evidence that other tabletop minis games are less fiddly.

I can give you anecdotal evidence. In my AoR RPG Group with have 4 people who collect X-Wing Minis. 2 of them gift me their cards all together because they just want the nice models in the vitrine (and sometimes on the game table when playing Age of Rebellion).

The third is my wife, who blatantly told me once that she got no time to dig into card combos on the internet and lastly me, who actually enjoys that part.

It just anecdotal, but it for sure is 3 to 1. Though none of us care much about rip-offs like warhammer. ;-)

The same is true of most minis games though. 40k spends quite a bit of time picking different models and defining their wargear. Infinity takes this to another level with multiple visor options for figures. Malifaux has an upgrade system and while Warmachine has little unit customization, the choice of attachment models or just list building in general is its own beast.

That's one of the things I love most about X-Wing;

Most miniatures games have rules on paper for special weapons, actions, etc. You use these rules to customize your force to your liking.

X-Wing also has those rules on paper - but rather than being in a book somewhere, they're on individual cards. It's much easier and faster to customize units when you can separate your gear's rules from the rest of it.

If you want to play X-Wing like Warhammer it's easy! Take a strip of tape, and tape one edge of your deck of cards together. Now you have a book of rules, just like all the other miniatures games! You can experience the joy of rifing through the book and writing out your unit lists on sheets of paper with mathematical points-keeping in the boundaries just like the good old days!

...

...

Naw! Who am I kidding?

I'll catch up with my reading at some point but while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost. As I've said in previous topics if there is one thing you can get rid of and have the game play just like it does it is the ship models; the game sure doesn't look as pretty and wouldn't attract near as much attention but the actual game play is unaffected.

What you need to play:

Bases w/ tiles representing ships.

Pilot cards for those ships being represented and any upgrades that may be with them.

The various templates and tokens granted most tokens could be recorded via other means.

X-Wing dice or the dice app.

Edit: Caught up with my reading.

I'll revise my statement that this is a card game at least going by most definitions I've been seeing and agree that it is a "miniatures" game as it relies on a representation of the pieces on the game board and those pieces have meaning. Cards are still important as they are used to define things and also expand things but if putting all of those cards in some kind of big codex and referencing that takes it away from being a card game then so be it; I guess I prefer the smaller and more modular "books" that come in the form of cards than I would having to carry around big tomes just to fly a small little squadron. Even with all of this the damage deck is still card based unless you are just going to say it represents a random table of effects that get checked off as each gets used.

Now despite being a "miniatures" game X-Wing would still play fine without using the beautiful models we have and instead using cardboard punchouts like the Senator's Shuttle.

I'll catch up with my reading at some point but while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost. As I've said in previous topics if there is one thing you can get rid of and have the game play just like it does it is the ship models; the game sure doesn't look as pretty and wouldn't attract near as much attention but the actual game play is unaffected.

What you need to play:

Bases w/ tiles representing ships.

Pilot cards for those ships being represented and any upgrades that may be with them.

The various templates and tokens granted most tokens could be recorded via other means.

X-Wing dice or the dice app.

You don't need the cards more than the miniature. Just print your list. I see a lot of player that just bring their list on paper on gaming night.

Personally, I'm still by most of your standards a rookie. I've been playing since shortly after the Falcon released, but I don't do tourneys or any of that. I don't look for the best card combos. I play what I think looks like fun, and I rarely use any build more than once. I refuse to buy expansions just for an upgrade or two, much less multiples to get several TLTs or whatever. (I think the K-wing is ugly, and I don't find it appealing at all, so I actually don't have a single TLT card.)

I come from a background of playing SFB, and from there, I see the cards as a mix of my systems display, damage allocation system, and refits for ships. Yeah, I know, there are also pilot upgrades, but just about the same idea. To me the whole game is about playing with ships and characters I love, not about maxed out builds or being ultra-competitive.

I think, bottom line, this game, like all others, is whatever you choose to make it. Play it for the card combos, or for the theme and fighter combat, or just because the minis look cool; just enjoy the game your own way, and in such a way as those you play with can enjoy it to. After all, if a game isn't fun, the game is a failure, isn't it?

JBR7, just burn all your cards. It's now a 100% miniature game.