I'll catch up with my reading at some point but while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost. As I've said in previous topics if there is one thing you can get rid of and have the game play just like it does it is the ship models; the game sure doesn't look as pretty and wouldn't attract near as much attention but the actual game play is unaffected.

What you need to play:

Bases w/ tiles representing ships.

Pilot cards for those ships being represented and any upgrades that may be with them.

The various templates and tokens granted most tokens could be recorded via other means.

X-Wing dice or the dice app.

You don't need the cards more than the miniature. Just print your list. I see a lot of player that just bring their list on paper on gaming night.

I was already revising my post when you replied.

Now to maintain the RULES as they are written the cards are just as important as the miniature. Maybe you can ignore requirements for the cards and print your list but then you could just print the base tiles you need to go on the bases and not worry about the miniatures used either.

You have trouble keeping track of your cards so you bring your list all on a sheet of paper. Well maybe I don't want to carry around all of those minis which take up a lot of space and can break so I'll just bring copies of the tiles to put down on the bases which I need to bring along with my templates and a few tokens. I should have no trouble fitting my entire squadron, except maybe the dice which I can just drop into my pocket, into a letter sized envelope to bring to game night.

It's a highly expandable and customizable board game that happens to use miniatures and cards.

It's a highly expandable and customizable board game that happens to use miniatures and cards.

It's clearly a tabletop wargame, not a board game.

I'm not sure it's a miniature games though. The miniature has no function whatsoever except being nice to look at. The facing is decided by the base, and the height and size of the miniature has no relevance. You could easily remove all miniatures and use just the bases and you would have the same game (mechanic-wise, less fancy, but much easier to transport). In most of the other games the miniature has some function, you need the size to determine LOS and such.

The cards are there for rules only, makes it easier to carry the rules around that you need for a particular squad. For our casual games we just print out the handy sheets that the squad builders provide, easier than going through all the cards to find the right ones.

edit: ninja-ed. StevenO got there first

I'm not sure it's a miniature games though. The miniature has no function whatsoever except being nice to look at. The facing is decided by the base, and the height and size of the miniature has no relevance. You could easily remove all miniatures and use just the bases and you would have the same game (mechanic-wise, less fancy, but much easier to transport). In most of the other games the miniature has some function, you need the size to determine LOS and such.

The cards are there for rules only, makes it easier to carry the rules around that you need for a particular squad. For our casual games we just print out the handy sheets that the squad builders provide, easier than going through all the cards to find the right ones.

edit: ninja-ed. StevenO got there first

By your defenition of a miniatures game Warmachine would not apply either, as the actual model servers no purpose as all measurements come to and from the base.

Any number of miniatures game wouldn't apply under that criteria, so I think you have to ditch that criteria.

I'll catch up with my reading at some point but while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost. As I've said in previous topics if there is one thing you can get rid of and have the game play just like it does it is the ship models; the game sure doesn't look as pretty and wouldn't attract near as much attention but the actual game play is unaffected.

What you need to play:

Bases w/ tiles representing ships.

Pilot cards for those ships being represented and any upgrades that may be with them.

The various templates and tokens granted most tokens could be recorded via other means.

X-Wing dice or the dice app.

You don't need the cards more than the miniature. Just print your list. I see a lot of player that just bring their list on paper on gaming night.

I was already revising my post when you replied.

Now to maintain the RULES as they are written the cards are just as important as the miniature. Maybe you can ignore requirements for the cards and print your list but then you could just print the base tiles you need to go on the bases and not worry about the miniatures used either.

That's what I said: You don't need the cards more than the miniature.

If your argument that card is more important than miniature (that's what seems to be your argument when you say: '' while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost.'' )is that you can play without miniatures, I just pointed out that you can also play just fine without the cards. Both are an important part of the game IF you play competitively where they are both required: You can't participate in a tournament if you don't have the miniature and you can't either if you don't have the cards. But if you play casually, you could do without either of those. Play with only a printed list because you don't want to buy a ship only for a card? Sure why not. Play with only the base? Why not, if that's your thing... but I'm not sure you'll find a lot of opponent if you only play with ship base, while if you come with a printed list, I'm pretty sure most won't mind.

Saying that miniature is not an important part of a miniature game because you can replace the miniature by a token could be said about pretty much any miniature game. I've played a lot of various miniature game, and technically yes, they could be played without the miniatures. Would it be as fun? I personally think that it's part of their charm, remind me of my youth when I played with my toys. But they're not required, and neither are the cards. Unless you play competitively.

It's a miniatures game because the size, position, and orientation of the miniature figures matters. The cards are there to support the miniatures, and have no direct significance themselves. The cards are really just cheat-sheets to make it easy to remember and convey what the stats and abilities of each miniature are.

Exactly, You can play X-wing without the cards with the only exception for the damage deck. But you can't play X-wing without the models.

Now to maintain the RULES as they are written the cards are just as important as the miniature. Maybe you can ignore requirements for the cards and print your list but then you could just print the base tiles you need to go on the bases and not worry about the miniatures used either.

That's what I said: You don't need the cards more than the miniature.

If your argument that card is more important than miniature (that's what seems to be your argument when you say: '' while the game may be called X-Wing Miniatures this is most certainly a CARD game first and foremost.'' )is that you can play without miniatures, I just pointed out that you can also play just fine without the cards. Both are an important part of the game IF you play competitively where they are both required: You can't participate in a tournament if you don't have the miniature and you can't either if you don't have the cards. But if you play casually, you could do without either of those. Play with only a printed list because you don't want to buy a ship only for a card? Sure why not. Play with only the base? Why not, if that's your thing... but I'm not sure you'll find a lot of opponent if you only play with ship base, while if you come with a printed list, I'm pretty sure most won't mind.

Saying that miniature is not an important part of a miniature game because you can replace the miniature by a token could be said about pretty much any miniature game. I've played a lot of various miniature game, and technically yes, they could be played without the miniatures. Would it be as fun? I personally think that it's part of their charm, remind me of my youth when I played with my toys. But they're not required, and neither are the cards. Unless you play competitively.

The pretty models only add to the visual appeal of the game; other stand ins could be used without affecting play. Now without the cards, or more appropriately what's on them, the game would not function. If asked to choose which is more important to playing X-Wing I will always need to side with the cards and what is on them instead of the big hunk of beautiful painted plastic that is the miniature. Without the cards, or whatever you want to replace them with, you'd do just as well buying micro-machines (granted this may be the low end) or any number of other lines to get you pretty models.

It's a miniatures game because the size, position, and orientation of the miniature figures matters. The cards are there to support the miniatures, and have no direct significance themselves. The cards are really just cheat-sheets to make it easy to remember and convey what the stats and abilities of each miniature are.

Exactly, You can play X-wing without the cards with the only exception for the damage deck. But you can't play X-wing without the models.

That is a COMPLETE lie. The plastic models and the pegs they sit on are easily the most expendable part of the X-Wing game although the base at token are indispensable parts of the game. The models are certainly important for the experience that goes to selling the game but without them you may find things work even better as you no longer need to worry about models colliding or any potential instabilities that having them perched on a long stand of pegs could cause.

If I take away your cards, which really means the information on those cards, you will find it impossible to play X-Wing until you make up a new set of rules. "Oh your Interceptor shoots at my B-Wing? Well I say you missed so there even if you say you hit. Maybe these funny dice could help answer our dispute although we'll just need to look at the results and figure out what they might mean."

That is a COMPLETE lie. The plastic models and the pegs they sit on are easily the most expendable part of the X-Wing game although the base at token are indispensable parts of the game. The models are certainly important for the experience that goes to selling the game but without them you may find things work even better as you no longer need to worry about models colliding or any potential instabilities that having them perched on a long stand of pegs could cause.

If I take away your cards, which really means the information on those cards, you will find it impossible to play X-Wing until you make up a new set of rules. "Oh your Interceptor shoots at my B-Wing? Well I say you missed so there even if you say you hit. Maybe these funny dice could help answer our dispute although we'll just need to look at the results and figure out what they might mean."

First: Woah, pump the brakes there big guy.

Second: Is it the information, or the physical cards that are necessary? If that information were contained in a book, instead of on cards, would you still be calling it a card game?

It is in design a pure miniature game - cards are just a representation of stats and upgrades (which FFG requires for their tournaments), except for the damage deck, which uses a deck of cards as a method of randomizing a particular critical effect.

This design can be seen in other miniature wargames eg Warhammer - Pilot cards = unit stat block; Upgrade cards = unit upgrades. Other wargames have attempeted a card/represetation before. This is the reason you can use a squadron builder and proxy play the game (of course you need a proxy dial, ship and dice).

Using a deck of cards for damage (as opposed to a table) is fairly different from most traditional games as each effect now only has a limited number of chances to appear.

First: Woah, pump the brakes there big guy.

Second: Is it the information, or the physical cards that are necessary? If that information were contained in a book, instead of on cards, would you still be calling it a card game?

What kind of "game" X-Wing is all will depend on how you really want to define different game types. The miniature is of no consequence to how the game plays so I certainly don't think you can call it a true miniatures game which leaves the cards as being more important to how the game plays. Of course calling it a card game is also misleading, as I came to see when I edited my first post in this thread, when it is the information on the cards that is more important. I guess most "card games" have some kind of random aspect to them and in X-Wing that would be the damage deck although that could be replaced with some other random method of choosing specific "face-up" results as I mentioned before.

Perhaps X-Wing could best be called a tactical wargame. You have the tokens (bases w/ ship tiles) on the board to represent ship location and heading, templates to help tell you how to move, various other tokens to help keep track of things, and dice to represent randomness. The stuff on the cards could go in a book to tell you how the various pieces interact which makes them important.

Now your first point was that I should slow down but when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly. I have nothing against the models and if you tell me they are a major driving force behind people buying X-Wing I have to agree as they are a big reason I took them up but I am not about to put blinders on and say they are at all essential to playing the game.

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

Saying that X-Wing can not be played without the models is most definitely a lie and not just some difference of opinion. You take them away and the game can be played just fine without them. Take away anything else in the game and it would need to be replaced with something. Or is there some other component of the game that can be completely removed yet allow the game to be played?

Saying there is a difference in opinion here is like someone saying the earth is "flat" when someone else says it is spherical; just like I could see reasons someone might say the earth is flat I can also see reason why one wants the models when they play X-Wing but that does not make that extreme position correct.

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The pretty models only add to the visual appeal of the game; other stand ins could be used without affecting play. Now without the cards, or more appropriately what's on them, the game would not function. If asked to choose which is more important to playing X-Wing I will always need to side with the cards and what is on them instead of the big hunk of beautiful painted plastic that is the miniature. Without the cards, or whatever you want to replace them with, you'd do just as well buying micro-machines (granted this may be the low end) or any number of other lines to get you pretty models.

It's a miniatures game because the size, position, and orientation of the miniature figures matters. The cards are there to support the miniatures, and have no direct significance themselves. The cards are really just cheat-sheets to make it easy to remember and convey what the stats and abilities of each miniature are.

Exactly, You can play X-wing without the cards with the only exception for the damage deck. But you can't play X-wing without the models.

That is a COMPLETE lie. The plastic models and the pegs they sit on are easily the most expendable part of the X-Wing game although the base at token are indispensable parts of the game. The models are certainly important for the experience that goes to selling the game but without them you may find things work even better as you no longer need to worry about models colliding or any potential instabilities that having them perched on a long stand of pegs could cause.

If I take away your cards, which really means the information on those cards, you will find it impossible to play X-Wing until you make up a new set of rules. "Oh your Interceptor shoots at my B-Wing? Well I say you missed so there even if you say you hit. Maybe these funny dice could help answer our dispute although we'll just need to look at the results and figure out what they might mean."

You can take all the information off the cards and put them on paper or simply use squadron builder and never see the cards again. The cards are completely expendable. The only cards that cannot be replaced because of the randomized function of shuffling and drawing is the damage deck.

If you want to argue on pure minimalist viewpoint then this is all you need.

• plastic base with tile
• movement dial
• movement templates
• range ruler
• 8 sided dice (no even X-wing just assign numbers such as 1-2 blanks 8 crit 6-8 evade so on.)
• damage deck
• squadron list

So yup no need for models or the pilot and upgrade cards. Heck even the stats are on the ship tiles so you won't need the card for that. the pilot cards don't move around on the table it is the bases and the dial has more control over the ship than the mere stats that also appear on the tiles. As for card information you could pull it from many of the open sources.

Now of course this won't be allowed at a tournament as you need to at least prove you have the cards but then again no TO in their right mind will let you play without the models so to say that just using a squadron builder in place of the pilot and upgrade cards is cheating, stealing, or ripping off FFG will not work.

Your argument has been debunked.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

Saying that X-Wing can not be played without the models is most definitely a lie and not just some difference of opinion. You take them away and the game can be played just fine without them. Take away anything else in the game and it would need to be replaced with something. Or is there some other component of the game that can be completely removed yet allow the game to be played?

Saying there is a difference in opinion here is like someone saying the earth is "flat" when someone else says it is spherical; just like I could see reasons someone might say the earth is flat I can also see reason why one wants the models when they play X-Wing but that does not make that extreme position correct.

I think you missed my point. You are clearly much more invested in this idea than you should be.

It's a card game, the miniatures aren't needed for casual play (and in cases like Ghost and YV-666 are actually removed when bumping occurs). /s

It's a miniatures game because the size, position, and orientation of the miniature figures matters. The cards are there to support the miniatures, and have no direct significance themselves. The cards are really just cheat-sheets to make it easy to remember and convey what the stats and abilities of each miniature are.

Exactly, You can play X-wing without the cards with the only exception for the damage deck. But you can't play X-wing without the models.

Squadmate Token, Escape Pod Token, and Senator's Shuttle Token want to have a talk with you.

Actually for almost every miniature game the model itself is just a piece of decoration - the base is what get measured to and from - only in certain cases such as height based LOS does the actual mode get measured to.

There is at least one damage deck generator in the net. So, one even doesn't need the deck. Stats can be downloaded from a couple of sites including Squad builders and even the Maneuver wheel you don't need, because you can just use a table in which you fill in your maneuvers. Tokens you can build yourself.

Maybe you need a sample of asteroids, the base plates and maneuver templates as models to copy for later use. All together you wouldn't have to pay mire than 10 bucks for the entire game, if you are creative and really low on cash.

(Though, if that's the case you'd sure have other things to worry about).

But in the end, X-Wing is foremost a visual game with the aim to recreate a physical touchable feel of the space battles we enjoyed when we were young.

I would never have bought into the game if it would have been just cards, tokens and chits, even if the rules would be the best there is - which they aren't. (But that's another topic to rant about).

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

It might be your opinion that dogs are reptiles. You would be wrong, just like you are about the models being necessary in X-Wing, and I would hope that someone pointed that out just like the person you are criticizing here. It takes some stones to say something dumb and the jump on the person who points out that you did not think before you spoke.

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

It might be your opinion that dogs are reptiles. You would be wrong, just like you are about the models being necessary in X-Wing, and I would hope that someone pointed that out just like the person you are criticizing here. It takes some stones to say something dumb and the jump on the person who points out that you did not think before you spoke.

I think you also, are far too invested in this. You and the other guy need to just chill, man.

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

It might be your opinion that dogs are reptiles. You would be wrong, just like you are about the models being necessary in X-Wing, and I would hope that someone pointed that out just like the person you are criticizing here. It takes some stones to say something dumb and the jump on the person who points out that you did not think before you spoke.

I think you also, are far too invested in this. You and the other guy need to just chill, man.

So, by "far too imvested invested," you mean casually clicking on this thread while I waited for my dog to finish his breakfast? I guess that means that anyone who is actually discussing this, yourself included, has, relative to me, invested their entire purpose of existence into this thread.

Again, you are showing that you are not thinking. Think first, man.

It's a miniatures game because the size, position, and orientation of the miniature figures matters. The cards are there to support the miniatures, and have no direct significance themselves. The cards are really just cheat-sheets to make it easy to remember and convey what the stats and abilities of each miniature are.

Exactly, You can play X-wing without the cards with the only exception for the damage deck. But you can't play X-wing without the models.

Squadmate Token, Escape Pod Token, and Senator's Shuttle Token want to have a talk with you.

Well serves my point exactly, none of those tokens have pilot cards thus X-wing is a miniatures game.

You can play a miniatures game entirely with tokens of the same size of the base, but again it is those tokens that move. You don't put the cards on the table and have them move and shoot and measure distances.

when someone wants to say that model is the one thing X-Wing can not be played without that most certainly is a lie that needs to be put down quickly.

Well, this is what I mean about pumping the brakes. It's not a lie, just a different opinion. And it doesn't need to be put down quickly, we can just quietly disagree and move on.

It might be your opinion that dogs are reptiles. You would be wrong, just like you are about the models being necessary in X-Wing, and I would hope that someone pointed that out just like the person you are criticizing here. It takes some stones to say something dumb and the jump on the person who points out that you did not think before you spoke.

I think you also, are far too invested in this. You and the other guy need to just chill, man.

So, by "far too imvested invested," you mean casually clicking on this thread while I waited for my dog to finish his breakfast? I guess that means that anyone who is actually discussing this, yourself included, has, relative to me, invested their entire purpose of existence into this thread.

Again, you are showing that you are not thinking. Think first, man.

So where on the spectrum are you, exactly?

Are we crazy? Minis not esentials in X wing minis game? Whe only play this game to deploy and move the superb star wars ships !!! Without them there is no point playing this. If you have no minis, OK, no problem, play VASSAL. But not tabletop. There are so many air-space wargames out there...