Having trouble seeing how Long Range Scanners is worth it when Guidance Chips exists.

Alpha Strikes.

They work like Deadeye in the U-Boat builds that are causing so much consternation, in allowing the bombers to fire as soon as the target is in range, against target with higher PS than them which they therefore owuldn't be able to TL and shoot in the first engagement normally.

But that comes at the cost of the incredible power of the Guidance Chip.

You won't, unless FFG puts out R4-5 guns on non_huge ships

But that comes at the cost of the incredible power of the Guidance Chip.

Which comes at the cost of the ship mounting the guidance chip being blown out of the sky before it can launch its payload.

LRS is good for the low-PS bomber swarm, basically. I'd expect virtually anyone else who can mount it to use guidance chips or nothing.

But that comes at the cost of the incredible power of the Guidance Chip.

To be honest, LRS will be useful on Gamma Squadron Veterans with Deadeye, who will be able to use the focus for attack and keep the TL for re-rolls. A sophisticated version of R4 Agromech, basically.

Or just use Homing Missiles.

LRS might be worth more than guidance chips on a single torpedo ship, consider scimitar + concussion missiles +lrs. no extra munitions - This is the cheapest you can go - and focus + concussion is usually pretty good. not a bad 20 point filler alpha strike ship. The bomber has good durability - it can be ignored while empty for range 1 attacks. That's different than the more likely 22 point extra munitions chips version that will struggle to lock and maintain range on the initial engage...

They are good and Homing Missiles are the key.

This isn't so much "Justifying LRS" as "Explaining to the OP how they actually work".

This isn't so much "Justifying LRS" as "Explaining to the OP how they actually work".

Why isn't it both?

LRS sacrifices Guidance Chips' very powerful modification, so I'm trying to understand when it's preferable to Guidance Chips on damage.

When it was spoiled it struck me as a 0 point tradeoff card: you lost your short range locks for long range ones: it was an alpha strike buff. But now Guidance Chips is a thing it strikes me as very niche indeed.

LRS works with non-ordnance as well. If your Firespray isn't sporting an Engine Upgrade, stick LRS on it and watch it be considerably scarier. For example:

Mandalorian Mercenary

- Slave-1

- Boba Fett

- Calculation

- Long Range Scanner

Decent PS, strong attack, decent defence, ten hit point, scary crew, and unless the focus token gets shot off, makes its first attack fully modified. Sounds like a good deal for 37 points. Have another five points to spare? EM and Proximity Mines.

Really? Because even with Guidance Chips revealed it was immediately obvious to me what ships would prefer Long Range Scanners. Hell, one of them comes in the same box!

There's really no justification needed. Scimitars, Cutlass, Wardens and the like will all get much more mileage out of LRS than Guidance Chips when using ordnance.

Hell, Wardens can double up with Weapons Engineer if they so choose.

Throw it on one of three ships:

Any Firespray, or Bomber that also contains an Advanced Homing Missile. Tag a ship of your choice during turn 1, then watch as your opponent dances to try and keep that ship out of arc of the ship that has it locked. I especially like this on a firespray because it could cause your opponent to make a bad movement choice, end up in range 1, and then have to face 4 dice from your primaries (Which might ping it for more then the AHM would even)

Rhymer with APT. It's the cheapest way to make Rhymer with APT self sufficient. Add VI as a pilot talent, you have a 9 ps 5 dice attack at range 1 - 2 that will get (at worst) 3 hits.

As stated above, a low PS swarm with Homing Missiles. A bomber list to be exact, allowing them to come in with a TL/focus and slipping through your evade tokens. Just, evil.

Finally: I like having it on a Firespray that doesn't have engine upgrade (my Emon is the one list I use it on). It's funny because I have Dengar on Emon but I usually tag the not unique pilot in the list to also get full reroll on it.

There's really no justification needed. Scimitars, Cutlass, Wardens and the like will all get much more mileage out of LRS than Guidance Chips when using ordnance.

You're going to have to explain this rather than just saying it's so.

LRS works with non-ordnance as well. If your Firespray isn't sporting an Engine Upgrade, stick LRS on it and watch it be considerably scarier. For example:

Mandalorian Mercenary

- Slave-1

- Boba Fett

- Calculation

- Long Range Scanner

Decent PS, strong attack, decent defence, ten hit point, scary crew, and unless the focus token gets shot off, makes its first attack fully modified. Sounds like a good deal for 37 points. Have another five points to spare? EM and Proximity Mines.

I hadn't considered this.

Consider the problems faced by Scimitar Squadron Pilot + Guidance Chips. It wants a reliable way to fire a missile or torpedo, but everything it wants to tag has higher pilot skill. In the first round of engagement, it's almost impossible to acquire a target lock on that ship it wants to tag.

In the second round, its preferred target (knowing the Scimitar is carrying ordnance with Range 2-3) closes to Range 1. The Scimitar finally gets a TL but still can't launch its ordnance due to range, and has now been attacked twice.

On the third round, the Scimitar is PS-killed by its preferred target.

Now picture the same Scimitar with Long-Range Sensors. It acquires the TL it needs in round 0, before the ships are close enough to engage. Then it's free to focus on subsequent rounds, meaning that when it fires its Concussion Missiles (for example), it's got a spare token to modify the results. And the awkward timing problem on that first round of engagement is gone, which means all the problems are now on the side of that ace you've had your eye on.

Of course, ordnance shots later on will be tougher. But the critical first-round shot can actually happen, and because LRS simplifies the timing by moving the initial TL to a different round, it provides a subtle break on the action economy as well. Ships that can take Deadeye, ships with naturally high PS, ships that can combine Fire Control System with close-range ordnance, and ships with wingmen running S-Thread Tracers probably do prefer the sure and effective dice mod from Guidance Chips.

But low-PS ships without support can't effectively run missiles or torpedoes without LRS, so they benefit a great deal from the swap. (And on that first shot the focus action can largely duplicate the Chips modification anyway, so the difference in average damage is very small.)

I find Long Range Scanners to work best with K-Wings who don't use their modification slot for Advanced SLAM. The ability to SLAM out of combat allows you to re-acquire a spent target lock, then re-engage with both focus and target lock.

I believe part of the perceived problem with Long Range Scanners lies with the fact that only four ships can presently equip them: the K-Wing, TIE Bomber, TIE Punisher, and unique Slave I Firespray. This makes it easier to forget about the Scanners when the ubiquitous Guidance Chips can go anywhere.

As others have pointed out, the power of the Scanners lies in early/rangeless access to targets out of order to the present order of operations. Ordnance requires setup, and Scanners make that setup happen in a more agreeable timeframe.

The question to ask when building a list, then, is do you want the preparatory assistance of LRS or the offensive assistance of Chips? Chips dovetail nicely with Ordnance that already provides dice modification: Concussion Missiles flip a blank result to a Hit; Proton Torpedoes flip an Eyeball to a Crit. The additional assurances of Guidance Chips make these weapons more reliable when merely taking a TL and spending it immediately to fire away in the same round.

Long Range Scanners would prefer ordnance that warrants more investment. Homing Missiles are the LRS poster child, owing to a full TL+F 4-dice attack that ignores Evade tokens, which can be instigated on Turn 1 and fired as soon as possible. LRS may be responsible for the appearance of numerous Missiles and Torpedoes because of their ease of implementation compared to their debut (I'm looking at those Ion Torpedoes for my K-Wings, personally).

In the end, I feel the differences make them relatively "separate but equal" and so where the LRS/GC line most likely falls will be due to player preference.

Vorpal Sword said it best so far. I've flown Tie Bombers for about a year now and have seen all the various upgrades come into it. I think LRS is built for low PS ships. Getting those TL is quite hard in that first pass. You have low PS and most everything goes after you. Trying to get close enough and not get shot is pretty tricky. You have to learn the Rule of 11 and try to manage to be just out of range. Darkhorse built a strategy that revolved around just staying out of range and then zipping in to grab the target lock and hope they bump you. You drop bombs and then K-turn to get the shot next turn. It's hard to pull off if they know it's coming, but can work beautifully when they don't.

Guidance Chip is great.....if you can get your shot off. If you are a low PS ship, it can be a challenge to get your TL (which means your shot).

LRS gives you the ability to get the TL early and hopefully have a focus. Beyond that, though, it allows you to slow roll at people. The Tie Bomber has a pretty good dial and the ability to Barrel Roll. People like to just throw the word "arc dodger" out there as if it's easy to just fly around a bunch of Tie Bombers that don't need to spend an action to grab a TL. If those Bombers are not flying in formation, it's not so easy. All you have to do is bank towards your opponent and cover a huge range of fire. It's not easy to go from beyond R3 into R1 on someone, unless it's straight, you go 5 and then boost. Even at that point, if you stagger your Bombers, you won't be able to avoid all of them. A one bank and Barrel Roll can cover a lot of territory and it's not so easy to sneak up on a Tie Bomber that wants you in range.

It should only take 2 Homing Missile + Focus shots to kill a Stealth Soontir. If you have 4 Bombers, you don't need to have them all face off against Soontir. The other two ships can protect their flanks and fire at the rest of the enemy's list. Also, if just having one Bomber scare off Soontir, then your 25 pt ship is delaying their expensive Soontir for a round or two? I'll take it.

There is all sorts of other shenanigans you can do, as well. What if you put 2-3 TL on Soontir on the round before everyone engages. Everyone picks their dials and goes. Your Bombers then moves and picks new targets. Soontir has picked a delaying tactic and is out of the fight, expecting your Bombers to be sitting out doing nothing. Oh, now they don't have a Focus and TL for their Homing Missile. They just have the Homing Missile with TL.....that still has pretty good roll averages. You have just pushed Soontir out for a round and most likely killed one or two enemy ships with your alpha strike. Save a couple of Missiles for Soontir and you should be fine.

You can't grab another TL in R1-2. That's not as bad as one would think, though. The Tie Bomber doesn't turn really well, but it does have a 5 K-turn. I've flown Bombers a lot in the last year and it's much better to just grab the K-turn and then slow roll for a turn to clear the stress. At this point, you can also grab another TL. Don't fly in formation and they can't spoil you with flying too close. If you come at them from multiple angles and then all K-turn, you will be able to grab a TL on most enemy ships. It's not like you can't grab a TL on anyone if someone is in R1-2, but just that target. If you fly Tie Bombers, you will find it's not really such a problem most of the time, especially if you plan for it.

If you have a high...or even mid PS ship, you don't need LRS. You will do much better with Guidance Chip. If you are a low PS pilot, then I think LRS is a much better option. If you still have doubts, I recommend you play this list and see how hard it is:

Flying Scimitars (aka the Chadwick Bombers)

4 x Scimitar Pilots w/ Homing Missile, Seismic Charge, EM, and Guidance Chip

In addition to all that good stuff VS posted, consider that Gamma Squadron Veteran + LRS + Homing Missile + Crack Shot (starting first engagement with TL+Focus) hits Stealth Device Soontir Fel more often than not, even if he rolls 4 natural Evades.

Basically, the first turn of fire is the most important, and LRS makes this turn much stronger for many ordnance carriers. Throw in the fact that Homing Missiles let you keep a TL, and that an LRS ship can spend its Focus for defense if really needed, and it's very much a strong card for gaining a major advantage on the opening turn.

The hardest thing for a Scimitar Sq. to do is to get that TL.

LRS solves that problem, as others have mentioned, couple it with Homing Missiles (and the Focus action you'll then take before firing) and you have a hefty Alpha Strike.

Also, consider Krassis Trelix, a mid-PS level Pilot usually packing a HLC, he'll absolutely love this for free as he can lock something for the alpha strike, or lock a different target for later and rely on his pilot ability until then.

One Missile/Torp -> LRC

More than one missile/Torp -> GChimps

easy like that

Everyone states and restates that LRS help the low PS bombers with acquiring a Target Lock to combat range release their missiles or torpedoes against their target...

Yes, people can read the text in the card.

Why I cannot see is why would the target decide to still joust the bomber when it is clear that the bomber has target-locked it. Nobody in their right sense would joust a bomber that carries ordnance and comes with a target lock and a focus token.

The clever player will start a goose chase as soon as the bombers lock him at range 4-5. In order to make most of their action economy, the bombers will chase their locked targets to be able to actually release their payload.

Then the clever player will use some other ship to backstab the bombers in their silly chase.

The only sensible point I see on LRS is to try and create a negative zone in front of the bomber firing arc where the target-locked ship won't want to get into. Some kind of board control, if you will.

Guidance Chips require you to use ordnance where as Long Range Scanners don't. Sure you need to have both missile and torpedo slots, but for likes of Miranda and so on it is good enough because she'll want to be in Range 3 anyway most of the time.

And then there is the case of lower PS pilots that won't be able to get TL because they move first. Drawback of LRS isn't that big of a deal as you would be taking focus anyway most of the time when close to an enemy ship.

This isn't so much "Justifying LRS" as "Explaining to the OP how they actually work".

Y-Ye-YEA!

The bomber player has 4 or 5 bombers with complementary fields of fire. Want to dodge one? Good luck getting a shot and dodging all of them...