The impression I have is that most competitively focused Imperial builds include a "strong" ("strong" as dependent on how much suits the local meta) bid for first turn, and are built to play with and make the most of taking first turn.

What objectives and types of build would favour an Imperial that wanted to go second and really leverage an advantage from playing its own objectives?

I took this list to canberra space con and went second all day and won.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=10308

the theory worked on that most players didnt want demolisher to go first so what i would do instead is made sure at least 2 ships had shots next activation, making it a trade off plus the objective advantage. I did intel sweep because i would layout a triangle that my ISD would fly into to claim by turn 4 and if they contested the apex objective they would be in infront arc of my ISD. Fleet Ambush because it broke up people's fleets for my high number of ships to focus on and most wanted because of multiple ships.

I believe the list that won the Newcastle store champs was built on going second too and was primarily a bomber ball

I have tried going second a few times and always regretted it, personally. Because I usually don't leave port without four ships in my fleet, if I need to delay activations I can activate an escort ship first (Raider or CR90). This allows me to very effectively define the engagement at the point of contact.

Every time I've sacrificed the control of being First Player, I have had a much harder time of things. It's still possible to define the engagement as Second Player, especially if you're a better tactician than I, but I have found it to be much more challenging.

Hence, my current competitive build has a 13-point bid for first turn. If someone wants to exceed that, then they deserve to be first player, because I'm very conscious of some of the awesome upgrades on which I'm missing out with 13 points to spare.

However, mine is a very short-range fleet. Most of its hurt comes at Black range, and in a knife fight order of activation is everything. In a longer-range combat, I would expect First Player advantage to be much less significant at long range and with wider arcs of fire - such as an Ackbar-led broadside list. And indeed, that's been my experience at tournaments, where a lot of Ackbar fleets have had a 0 point bid for initiative.

So I would say yes, my personal experience has been that Imperial fleets benefit greatly from First Player advantage - but then, I feel all fleets do to some extent. It's less important for Ackbar-led fleets, where their range makes timing less critical, and where having the right upgrades is much more vital. And First Player advantage is definitely more important for short-range fleets, which need to make their attacks in the order they decide, before targets slip out of reach.

ISDs and VSDs handle going second better than the knife-fighter Imperial ships (Raiders, Gladiators) do, although you can always try to set up your black dice ships to "catch" enemy ships, which works out fine while going second as well.

ISD,VSD anchored lists with bomber support have no issues going second.

I came 4th with a 3 vsd1 carrier build, went second the whole time.

I feel like any carrier build is pretty suitable to go second on account that fighters can move and shoot on activation via a ship. So not getting the first shot doesn't matter as much and you can blow all your budget.

My current Imprrial build absolutely wants to go second. It's built to try to use an ISD and VSD to force my opponent to move towards my Raiders and Bombers. Works really well overall. I use Contested Outpost, Advanced Gunnery, and Superior Positions.

I find even VSD/ISD can have trouble as second because if you close enough to hit with your main battery then the target ship probably is going to have the option of getting the heck out of the way before you can fire. I have to really watch my speed, because its so easy especially for rebels to slip around the sides....

I agree that a decent bomber contingent would greatly improve your ability to react.

So we have Irokens list which is basically NO squadrons, and did well, which conflicts with the general wisdom that a squadron build would do well...

One idea I had would be to keep two gladiators/raiders at slow speed behind the ISDs/VSDs to hammer anything that tried to get past them- even a GSD has a pretty decent area of influence.

I find even VSD/ISD can have trouble as second because if you close enough to hit with your main battery then the target ship probably is going to have the option of getting the heck out of the way before you can fire. I have to really watch my speed, because its so easy especially for rebels to slip around the sides....

I agree that a decent bomber contingent would greatly improve your ability to react.

So we have Irokens list which is basically NO squadrons, and did well, which conflicts with the general wisdom that a squadron build would do well...

One idea I had would be to keep two gladiators/raiders at slow speed behind the ISDs/VSDs to hammer anything that tried to get past them- even a GSD has a pretty decent area of influence.

it really depends on the objective. Since they chose my intel sweep and i did the triangle, the gladiators prevented the flanks of my ISD being used as escape routes. I believe your idea with them behind the ISD works too!

also i only faced one bomber wing that day, which rolled terribly to my luck.

I've had pretty good success with the following fleet :

ISD II : Admiral Motti, Wulff Yularen, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, ECM, Relentless

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Major Rhymer

Tie Bomber x4

Mauler Mithel

Soontir Fel

Howlrunner

Tie Interceptor x2

Precision Strike, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions. (exactly 400pts)

Or as a slight variation to try and guarantee 2nd player, switch out Mauler/Soontir/Howlrunner for 3 more Tie Interceptors, and add X-17's to the Imperial II, giving a total of 390pts, then pick 2nd player.

The Raiders work as escorts sitting offset behind the Imp II, you have a pretty obscene alpha strike capability with the offensive squadrons, and 4 bombers with Rhymer can do what they want, once you've cleared the enemy squadrons, with Wulff, all 5 can be activated at once.

Precision strike, you have 5 bombers, and 2 apts, Firelanes you can easily rack up vps and keep control, superior positions, again once the offensive squadrons have mopped up the opposing force, its vp pinata time.

The big test is an Imperial 5 ship build, that wants player one, as I haven't managed to play against it yet, I have no idea how well it will hold up, on paper at least, the objectives are key to winning the fight against that build.

Advanced Gunnery is killer on an ISD2, assuming you can justify running it without Gunnery Team. Most Wanted works wonderful on any Raider. Opening Salvo is a trap, if you are running anything fat, like an ISD. One turn 6 ram and you're trading away 60 points.

Contested Outpost is the Imperial baseline - a VSD1 with nothing on it can earn its own points back in 4 turns, or a cheap Demolisher in 3. Each one is plenty good at sitting in a location and saying "no one better come too close".

Superior Positions as Imperials is hilariously good - you can set up such that their deployment has no good way of getting behind you, and it turns even your TIE Fighters into a 50/50 chance of doubling their point cost in winnings if you can free them up from the squadron battle. Some people really like Minefields - to me it feels pretty "meh". An ISD plowing through Dangerous Territory is hilarious, and effective.

I find even VSD/ISD can have trouble as second because if you close enough to hit with your main battery then the target ship probably is going to have the option of getting the heck out of the way before you can fire. I have to really watch my speed, because its so easy especially for rebels to slip around the sides....

One idea I had would be to keep two gladiators/raiders at slow speed behind the ISDs/VSDs to hammer anything that tried to get past them- even a GSD has a pretty decent area of influence.

This is exactly the thought process that led me to my current build. Everyone wants to slip around the sides of the ISD/VSD. So use that to funnel ships towards your short range bruisers. It really favors going second as you want the opponent moving into your fire arcs.

I've had pretty good success with the following fleet :

ISD II : Admiral Motti, Wulff Yularen, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, ECM, Relentless

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Major Rhymer

Tie Bomber x4

Mauler Mithel

Soontir Fel

Howlrunner

Tie Interceptor x2

Precision Strike, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions. (exactly 400pts)

Or as a slight variation to try and guarantee 2nd player, switch out Mauler/Soontir/Howlrunner for 3 more Tie Interceptors, and add X-17's to the Imperial II, giving a total of 390pts, then pick 2nd player.

The Raiders work as escorts sitting offset behind the Imp II, you have a pretty obscene alpha strike capability with the offensive squadrons, and 4 bombers with Rhymer can do what they want, once you've cleared the enemy squadrons, with Wulff, all 5 can be activated at once.

Precision strike, you have 5 bombers, and 2 apts, Firelanes you can easily rack up vps and keep control, superior positions, again once the offensive squadrons have mopped up the opposing force, its vp pinata time.

The big test is an Imperial 5 ship build, that wants player one, as I haven't managed to play against it yet, I have no idea how well it will hold up, on paper at least, the objectives are key to winning the fight against that build.

I really like this list. What is your typical strategy against other fighter heavy builds? My local meta is flush with bombers. Do you typically hold your squadrons close and then.try to jump in on Jan/Rhymer?

I've had pretty good success with the following fleet :

ISD II : Admiral Motti, Wulff Yularen, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, ECM, Relentless

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Major Rhymer

Tie Bomber x4

Mauler Mithel

Soontir Fel

Howlrunner

Tie Interceptor x2

Precision Strike, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions. (exactly 400pts)

Or as a slight variation to try and guarantee 2nd player, switch out Mauler/Soontir/Howlrunner for 3 more Tie Interceptors, and add X-17's to the Imperial II, giving a total of 390pts, then pick 2nd player.

The Raiders work as escorts sitting offset behind the Imp II, you have a pretty obscene alpha strike capability with the offensive squadrons, and 4 bombers with Rhymer can do what they want, once you've cleared the enemy squadrons, with Wulff, all 5 can be activated at once.

Precision strike, you have 5 bombers, and 2 apts, Firelanes you can easily rack up vps and keep control, superior positions, again once the offensive squadrons have mopped up the opposing force, its vp pinata time.

The big test is an Imperial 5 ship build, that wants player one, as I haven't managed to play against it yet, I have no idea how well it will hold up, on paper at least, the objectives are key to winning the fight against that build.

My concern with this list is the lack of intel, have you bern running into situations where you were missing it or have you just been able to bulldoze through engagements thus far?

I've had pretty good success with the following fleet :

ISD II : Admiral Motti, Wulff Yularen, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, ECM, Relentless

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Major Rhymer

Tie Bomber x4

Mauler Mithel

Soontir Fel

Howlrunner

Tie Interceptor x2

Precision Strike, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions. (exactly 400pts)

Or as a slight variation to try and guarantee 2nd player, switch out Mauler/Soontir/Howlrunner for 3 more Tie Interceptors, and add X-17's to the Imperial II, giving a total of 390pts, then pick 2nd player.

The Raiders work as escorts sitting offset behind the Imp II, you have a pretty obscene alpha strike capability with the offensive squadrons, and 4 bombers with Rhymer can do what they want, once you've cleared the enemy squadrons, with Wulff, all 5 can be activated at once.

Precision strike, you have 5 bombers, and 2 apts, Firelanes you can easily rack up vps and keep control, superior positions, again once the offensive squadrons have mopped up the opposing force, its vp pinata time.

The big test is an Imperial 5 ship build, that wants player one, as I haven't managed to play against it yet, I have no idea how well it will hold up, on paper at least, the objectives are key to winning the fight against that build.

I really like this list. What is your typical strategy against other fighter heavy builds? My local meta is flush with bombers. Do you typically hold your squadrons close and then.try to jump in on Jan/Rhymer?

So far Imperials I've played have either been Rhymer/TieAdvanced/TieBombers, with slight variations, or have been Tie fighters, 2-8 of them, Rebels, anything from 6-8 A-wings, to a mix of Aces, none of which have proved a significant problem, the only real thing you need to do is keep them away from 2 AA dice ships, if you can engage outside of that AA dice envelope, it either took me 1 or 2 rounds to kill enough to stop the opposing squadrons being a cohesive threat. Even if one or two badly mauled squadrons live, you have FC to give your Tie Bombers a blue AA dice each, and 1 blue, 1 black is surprisingly good at dishing damage out, especially if you only need to do a few points.

I've had pretty good success with the following fleet :

ISD II : Admiral Motti, Wulff Yularen, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, ECM, Relentless

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Raider I : Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes

Major Rhymer

Tie Bomber x4

Mauler Mithel

Soontir Fel

Howlrunner

Tie Interceptor x2

Precision Strike, Fire Lanes, Superior Positions. (exactly 400pts)

Or as a slight variation to try and guarantee 2nd player, switch out Mauler/Soontir/Howlrunner for 3 more Tie Interceptors, and add X-17's to the Imperial II, giving a total of 390pts, then pick 2nd player.

The Raiders work as escorts sitting offset behind the Imp II, you have a pretty obscene alpha strike capability with the offensive squadrons, and 4 bombers with Rhymer can do what they want, once you've cleared the enemy squadrons, with Wulff, all 5 can be activated at once.

Precision strike, you have 5 bombers, and 2 apts, Firelanes you can easily rack up vps and keep control, superior positions, again once the offensive squadrons have mopped up the opposing force, its vp pinata time.

The big test is an Imperial 5 ship build, that wants player one, as I haven't managed to play against it yet, I have no idea how well it will hold up, on paper at least, the objectives are key to winning the fight against that build.

My concern with this list is the lack of intel, have you bern running into situations where you were missing it or have you just been able to bulldoze through engagements thus far?

Do you mean Intel not allowing me to possibly move pinned bombers? or Intel allowing things to escape my offensive squadrons?

Usually, turn 1 I take squadron to get the token for Wulff, and just move the offensive fighters into a threatening position, usually outside engagement range, bombers get kept behind the ISD in-between the two raiders, unless my opponent has a fast moving ship, that I can place the bombers in an area they are going to have to fly it into, in which case I'll move them to take advantage of that, as turn 2 the ISD is activating the offensive squadrons, so the bombers are only getting to shoot if placed right, otherwise they are kept safe for turn 3 when they can be squadron activated.

So I dunno, it has not been an issue for me, that doesn't mean it couldn't be one, but the offensive squadrons can kill stuff very quick, my 3 ships all get 2 AA dice.

I mean this build is meant to give some flexibility, Imperials don't get multi role squadrons, so usually Imperial commanders go either all anti ship, or all anti squadron, this is the best blend I have managed to come up with so far, that allows you to deal with your opponent having no squadrons, a few squadrons or even 6-8 squadrons, what it won't do well is deal with 10 X-wings, or 10 A-wings, or 10 Tie Interceptors, I mean they should kill 5-6 of them, unless you have totally garbage dice rolls, but you might end up with some still living while yours all died leaving the bombers to deal with them.

I kind of meant both, actually. Also to enable mithel's autodamage. But my concern would be an enemy locking down something you dont want locked down at key moment, whatever that may be. Also the lack of escort means they can choose their target, ie rhymer or howlrunner, in order to start chipping away at your synergies.

This is just on-paper theorizing though. You clearly have a strong anti squad presence and unless they bring some real squad support of their own, you'll be able to simply mow them down. I'm just interested in what your experiences had been this far on the table. Have there been instances where you were wishing you had brought intel? If not, has that been because you were able to burn through your opponents fighters? If you did burn them down, was it because they simply didnt invest much, did they utilize suboptimal placement in your opinion, things like that. I ask because I like what you have going there without falling back on what has become the autoincludes of dengar and an advanced.

Personal experience, Mauler rarely needs to move twice, first round you have enough firepower combined with that 1 damage from Mauler to kill 5 squadrons, even if you only kill 2-3 the others should be so low health that either Soontir's ability will kill them if they do not shoot him, or his counter will if they do, so far I haven't needed more than 2 rounds to wipe out what ever they were engaged with, even Jan giving braces to X-wings won't keep them alive for more than 2 rounds (unless you roll totally blankty blank). Once the enemy squadrons are dead, these become a liability, and usually what ever has survived I will remove from danger, unless the opportunity arises for earning some VPs for rear shots, I just get them safe, and keep them out of the fight, if they station is close however I'll move them to it, and then have them join the Bombers for some medium range sniping.

With speed 5 and 3 ship activations, and being player two, means that when facing the standard 2/3 ship build, you can always get a last activation after your opponent, if they have 4 ships, they only have a token fighter screen anyway, so with that being said I've found it quite easy to dictate engagement with the squadrons, I haven't actually had my Bombers engaged or attacked, because either the stuff is dead, or it is so badly damaged, they won't move them near my ships because the AA dice have more than a good chance of killing them.

So to answer the Intel question, I have not noticed the lack of it. but that is because I have designed a fleet for a specific reason, to counter the current standard squadron staple I see at local games.

Edited to add : You don't even really need Soontir/Mauler/Howlrunner I just added them for the extra survivability of the defense tokens they get, 5 Tie Interceptors with FC, with reroll, then counter 2 with reroll, is good enough, and then you don't need to worry about positioning them so much.

Yeah - last tourney I had Chirenau, flight controllers, Vader, Mauler and Bossk. Didn't think about it until after, but had more antisquad than I did bombers!

Too many points in air superiority - the bombers had free reign but didn't achieve anything decisive regardless.

I pretty much always end up being player 2 with my ISD-I, VSD-I, Raider-I, Aggressor list.

I usually choose Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost and Minefields and have gone 6 wins 2 draws and no losses.

Some lists require player 1, mine doesn't much care.