just to warn u u have some things wrong in your post ill name a few.

1-boosk cant one shot an a-wing that gets 3 evades 4 attack dice minus 3 make it one then boosk changes that one to two damage thats only two shields. not a one shot a-wing

2- the sycks title is 2pts

3-3 of the 4 shuttle pilots have EPTs and its a good thing the vcx-100 dosent have an ept or it would be op. (think most people can agree on that one)

u must not play rebels a whole lot cause didnt they get 1st and 2nd in last years worlds? dont think there doing as bad as u think. just cause u cant take 5-6 named pilots dosent mean the games broken or no fun play epic? rebel ships are better then imperial stat wise thats why there more points.

think u should step back and relook at the game and u might find it really not as bad as u think stay away from the sky is falling thinking and u will be fine.

so i cant take you serious cause u dont read the cards or even look on a list builder or u would know some of the basics of each ships.

Lemme correct your corrections. The Ghost sucks balls. It will see exactly no competitive use because it has a bad dial, is stupid expensive, relies on an expensive gimmick, and isnt a PWT. So no, having EPT on Lothal Rebel wouldnt barely do anything to make the VCX viable.

Just because the best player in the world can win worlds with Rebels, doesnt mean Rebels are a good faction. Scum and Empire can do everything Rebels can, but better. Scum now has Regen, and Empire can throw lots of dice, both of which were the Rebel's "Thing."

Just, can we stop using Paul Heaver as an example to "prove" that Rebels are still fine? None of us are Paul Heaver. Only Paul Heaver is Paul Heaver. I dont and never will play as well as Paul Heaver does, as well as everyone else in this thread. If the only way for Rebel 4-or-less ship builds to win against popular Imperial builds is to "Just have the skill of the best player in the world," then that on it's own is a damning argument.

Bahahahaha.

Paul heaver's not the only person who took Rebels to worlds. Top 2 were both rebel, with 4 rebel lists in the top 8. That's 50% of the top 8. 8 of the top 16 lists were rebel.

As for the ghost, it's a rather fantastic ship. We had 2 ghost lists (and 3 actual ghosts) in the top 4 of our final store championship over the weekend. I went 5-0 in the vassal league's first round with it with a different list, and am 15-1 with that list. The dial is actually quite nice, it can be flown with or without the docked shuttle, and doesn't need a PWT. You just have to learn how to actually fly the ship, instead of just circling like a fat PWT ship.

That argument changes exactly nothing. All of those players made the top tables at worlds. I will never do that, as i will never be skilled enough to do that. The local store/regional experience is that Palp on a thing plus 2 things is dominating and rarely loses. The best players in the world play a different meta than we do.

The ship just came out. Nobody has had time to formulate accepted defenses against it and it's cards. Not understanding a matchup against a ship doesnt make that ship good. It's garbo, and i will never be flying it, because Dash and Han are better in nearly every way.

Dash Rendar is 36 points base. Hera is 40. Hera has no EPT; Dash does. Dash also has a PWT. That he can mount HLC to, which ignores range combat bonuses at range 3. He can also barrel roll natively. The Ghost requires you to spend a minimum of 18 more points to be able to fire it's primaries in half the arc that Dash can fire his weapon. It's dial is also objectively worse than the YT-2400, with 4 more red maneuvers than it. Dash has 2 agility, the VCX has zero, instead choosing to have more hitpoints.

Dash is more maneuverable, dodges better, has large-base barrel roll, a better dial, a PWT that mounts a cannon of your choice, an EPT slot, and doesnt rely on a dumb, expensive gimmick to work properly. And it's cheaper than Hera by 4 points. Dash is cheaper than than the cheapest VCX pilot, Chopper, who's at PS4 and is only useful as a blocker.

But yeah, the VCX is a good ship that was designed well and priced appropriately. Yep. Totally.

Hera's not my goto VCX anyway. I've barely seen anyone fly her. Most are kanan or lothal rebels, with occasional choppers. I've been flying Chopper. 37 points to dash's 36. And realistically, dash basically costs 48 after HLC and outrider title, before any other upgrades. Typical dash is what, 58 points? My chopper build is 49 points. 69 if I'm running with a docked phantom. I use autoblaster, accuracy corrector, zeb, dash crew, and engine upgrade. With that build and a docked phantom, chopper has a range 1 bubble of death to any ace he gets close to. Plus 4 dice front and rear arcs that do 5 dice at range 1 instead of 0. Dash has a range 1 bubble he can't shoot in when the same aces get there. If they bump my chopper? Oh darn, I just shoot you anyway with zeb crew, and stress you with choppers ability. Dash can ignore rocks in the activatino phase. Except if you land on one and don't use an action to get off, you can't shoot. With dash crew I can ignore them in the combat phase, so I'm free to park on rocks and blast people, all while unobstructed.

And if I undock the phantom, I've still got a range 1 autoblaster with a primary 4 dice attack, and now I also have another 3 attack ship flyinig alongside.

just to warn u u have some things wrong in your post ill name a few.

1-boosk cant one shot an a-wing that gets 3 evades 4 attack dice minus 3 make it one then boosk changes that one to two damage thats only two shields. not a one shot a-wing

2- the sycks title is 2pts

3-3 of the 4 shuttle pilots have EPTs and its a good thing the vcx-100 dosent have an ept or it would be op. (think most people can agree on that one)

u must not play rebels a whole lot cause didnt they get 1st and 2nd in last years worlds? dont think there doing as bad as u think. just cause u cant take 5-6 named pilots dosent mean the games broken or no fun play epic? rebel ships are better then imperial stat wise thats why there more points.

think u should step back and relook at the game and u might find it really not as bad as u think stay away from the sky is falling thinking and u will be fine.

so i cant take you serious cause u dont read the cards or even look on a list builder or u would know some of the basics of each ships.

Lemme correct your corrections. The Ghost sucks balls. It will see exactly no competitive use because it has a bad dial, is stupid expensive, relies on an expensive gimmick, and isnt a PWT. So no, having EPT on Lothal Rebel wouldnt barely do anything to make the VCX viable.

Just because the best player in the world can win worlds with Rebels, doesnt mean Rebels are a good faction. Scum and Empire can do everything Rebels can, but better. Scum now has Regen, and Empire can throw lots of dice, both of which were the Rebel's "Thing."

Just, can we stop using Paul Heaver as an example to "prove" that Rebels are still fine? None of us are Paul Heaver. Only Paul Heaver is Paul Heaver. I dont and never will play as well as Paul Heaver does, as well as everyone else in this thread. If the only way for Rebel 4-or-less ship builds to win against popular Imperial builds is to "Just have the skill of the best player in the world," then that on it's own is a damning argument.

Bahahahaha.

Paul heaver's not the only person who took Rebels to worlds. Top 2 were both rebel, with 4 rebel lists in the top 8. That's 50% of the top 8. 8 of the top 16 lists were rebel.

As for the ghost, it's a rather fantastic ship. We had 2 ghost lists (and 3 actual ghosts) in the top 4 of our final store championship over the weekend. I went 5-0 in the vassal league's first round with it with a different list, and am 15-1 with that list. The dial is actually quite nice, it can be flown with or without the docked shuttle, and doesn't need a PWT. You just have to learn how to actually fly the ship, instead of just circling like a fat PWT ship.

That argument changes exactly nothing. All of those players made the top tables at worlds. I will never do that, as i will never be skilled enough to do that. The local store/regional experience is that Palp on a thing plus 2 things is dominating and rarely loses. The best players in the world play a different meta than we do.

No they don't, they just are better then you and practice more. It's just a falsehood to suggest that Rebels don't have success ar lower level events, you litterally are ignoring actual results to make that assertion.

If you're bad at a game, everything you play is going to look alot worse then it is, and you're going to make everything you play against look far better then it is. That isn't rocket science.

No they don't, they just are better then you and practice more. It's just a falsehood to suggest that Rebels don't have success ar lower level events, you litterally are ignoring actual results to make that assertion.

If you're bad at a game, everything you play is going to look alot worse then it is, and you're going to make everything you play against look far better then it is. That isn't rocket science.

You might want to back this up. It is completely common that top tier players can play a different meta than players around and below 1200 elo-rating. Simply because top tier players can pull of moves which are not reliable for significant worse players. And thus top tier players can have access to a different meta. If that is the case in X-Wing? I don´t think so, but I am not experienced enough to take a stand here. Are you playing good enough for worlds? And are you playing enough bad players as well to make that call?

Some things are more reliable than other things in bad players hands.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The game feels very star wars and the mechanics work.

The lothal rebel can be built to have similar firepower to a brobot at a significant discount in cost. I don't know why people say it sucks, though I think fat VCX builds that run 60+ points and involve a docked shuttle are a mistake.

The local store/regional experience is that Palp on a thing plus 2 things is dominating and rarely loses.

Huh. I must have imagined all those TLTs, Stresshogs, regenerating T-70s and Miranda Doni-s that I've spent the last three months running into over and over again. Weird.

Dash is more maneuverable, dodges better, has large-base barrel roll, a better dial, a PWT that mounts a cannon of your choice, an EPT slot, and doesnt rely on a dumb, expensive gimmick to work properly. And it's cheaper than Hera by 4 points. Dash is cheaper than than the cheapest VCX pilot, Chopper, who's at PS4 and is only useful as a blocker.

But yeah, the VCX is a good ship that was designed well and priced appropriately. Yep. Totally.

Seriously, you can make any comparison look slanted if you list all the advantages on one side and ignore any downsides. Dash is totally helpless against aces that can get into his R1 bubble. The Ghost is deadly in the same situation. Dash is a slave to his actions, so if you can bump him or stress him he's toast. The Ghost's got access to Accuracy Corrector or FCS and for not much more than the cost of Dash's HLC-Outrider combo can fire TWICE A TURN, one of which is potentially 5 dice which can crit. You can't even arc-dodge it because a 1 point upgrade means Hera knows exactly where you're going and can choose whatever manoeuvre she wants to line you up for the killshot. All that and more than 50% more hit points for not even 5 points more than Dash? OMG OVRPWRED FFG PLZ NERF

I played 3 games on Vassal today, and for the first time I had people concede because they weren't having fun... I felt really bad, because I was having fun, and I thought I was flying quite well. I was winning each game pretty handily, and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it, but a lot of people just don't like to play games that they lose at, especially when they feel like it is impossible to win. I don't think it really matters what you're flying, if your opponent doesn't feel like there is a chance that they can win, it won't feel fun. If that happens to you game after game, then yes, I'm sure X Wing as a game won't feel as fun anymore.

Double post... stupid internet

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The game feels very star wars and the mechanics work.

The mechanics of this game have been problematic from the beginning with regards to 'simulating' Star Wars. The big problem is that small guns have a hard time hitting agile targets and vice versa; A-Wings are not good as shooting down Interceptors, Heavy Laser Cannons are deadly against small ships, etc. This is not primarily a balance or gameplay problem, although it is related to the notion that an attack value of 2 is not enough. I don't think that notion is strictly true, but I do think that there is no good reason to actually choose 2 attack dice over 3.

Yeah, we need DIFFERENT DICE

with blue for Ions, red for blasters, orange for heavy weaponry, black for ordnance...

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

The main problem for me with the Star Wars 'feel' is that generics are far too effective against aces. Let's face it, Wedge or the Falcon crew vrs 12 scrubs streight out of the academy would actually result in 12 dead TIEs and maybe some dramatic sparks on the X-Wing or the Falcon. That sort of thing does not translate so well into a game though. We have in the past tried -1 attack and -1 defence for all generics against named pilots, which works well but does kill swarms dead. I suspect that would be a giant leap too far for a lot of players.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

The main problem for me with the Star Wars 'feel' is that generics are far too effective against aces.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

The main problem for me with the Star Wars 'feel' is that generics are far too effective against aces. Let's face it, Wedge or the Falcon crew vrs 12 scrubs streight out of the academy would actually result in 12 dead TIEs and maybe some dramatic sparks on the X-Wing or the Falcon. That sort of thing does not translate so well into a game though. We have in the past tried -1 attack and -1 defence for all generics against named pilots, which works well but does kill swarms dead. I suspect that would be a giant leap too far for a lot of players.

I think no one will ever choose generics like that. You gotta give people a fig leaf so Wedge and Han have someone to clown on. There are aces made to absolutely own generics, they often aren't iconic SW characters, though.

You end up using cheap generics as blockers if you use them at all. When we play the rule we see the points people tend to spend on generics invested in upgrades to aces. It's rare to see an X-Wing or a Y-Wing without torps and astromechs for example. It's very much a game of duelling aces, which is a ton of fun if you enjoy that sort of thing.

I guess i see enough aces in competitive play that they are plenty good. I also see a decent amount of generics. Guri walking in and clowning TLTs is really awesome. So is vader and soontir fighting Poe and buds.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

The main problem for me with the Star Wars 'feel' is that generics are far too effective against aces. Let's face it, Wedge or the Falcon crew vrs 12 scrubs streight out of the academy would actually result in 12 dead TIEs and maybe some dramatic sparks on the X-Wing or the Falcon. That sort of thing does not translate so well into a game though. We have in the past tried -1 attack and -1 defence for all generics against named pilots, which works well but does kill swarms dead. I suspect that would be a giant leap too far for a lot of players.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The game feels very star wars and the mechanics work.

The mechanics of this game have been problematic from the beginning with regards to 'simulating' Star Wars. The big problem is that small guns have a hard time hitting agile targets and vice versa; A-Wings are not good as shooting down Interceptors, Heavy Laser Cannons are deadly against small ships, etc. This is not primarily a balance or gameplay problem, although it is related to the notion that an attack value of 2 is not enough. I don't think that notion is strictly true, but I do think that there is no good reason to actually choose 2 attack dice over 3.

Yeah, we need DIFFERENT DICE

with blue for Ions, red for blasters, orange for heavy weaponry, black for ordnance...

No they don't, they just are better then you and practice more. It's just a falsehood to suggest that Rebels don't have success ar lower level events, you litterally are ignoring actual results to make that assertion.

If you're bad at a game, everything you play is going to look alot worse then it is, and you're going to make everything you play against look far better then it is. That isn't rocket science.

You might want to back this up. It is completely common that top tier players can play a different meta than players around and below 1200 elo-rating. Simply because top tier players can pull of moves which are not reliable for significant worse players. And thus top tier players can have access to a different meta. If that is the case in X-Wing? I don´t think so, but I am not experienced enough to take a stand here. Are you playing good enough for worlds? And are you playing enough bad players as well to make that call?

Some things are more reliable than other things in bad players hands.

And those become the loathed lists.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

I don't really. Do you mean more cinematic scenarios?

I've always been a bit miffed there's no official Trench Run mission, for one, but some missions like the Hoth campaign are pretty Star Warsy, they just aren't too popular.

I think what this game needs is less game mechanics, and more STAR WARS. I'm not sure how to go about that exactly, but I think most people will know what I mean.

The main problem for me with the Star Wars 'feel' is that generics are far too effective against aces. Let's face it, Wedge or the Falcon crew vrs 12 scrubs streight out of the academy would actually result in 12 dead TIEs and maybe some dramatic sparks on the X-Wing or the Falcon. That sort of thing does not translate so well into a game though. We have in the past tried -1 attack and -1 defence for all generics against named pilots, which works well but does kill swarms dead. I suspect that would be a giant leap too far for a lot of players.

I think it depends on what source you are looking at if you think Wedge can kill 12 Tie Fighters. If you look at the original Star Wars, the Falcon did beat off....but they took hits and were concerned...with 6 or so Tie Fighters. If you read some of the comics, then they blast enemy Tie Fighters all the time. I don't think Wedge should be able to face off vs. 12 Tie Fighters and win. It's just not feasible. I think X-wing does a good job of handling Aces vs. Generics.

@numb3rc: I agree with you on that. At least they have the Mission Control website. There are some good ones on there. I've found that I get a more Star Wars-ey (or Star Warsian?) feel when I fly a more than 100 pts mission with almost all Generics. It can have Epic or not and do different things, but having little squads of similar ships is cool. Having the A-wings fly interception so the Y-wings can make it to their target as the X-wings zip in to blast their targets is pretty awesome to me. I get more of a tingle with those games. Maybe one or two uniques.

I'm a little nonplussed by this thread.

The narrowest reading of the OP is that someone who misunderstands a lot of rules isn't aware that Rebels have been winning a plurality of tournament games for years now. And people piled on, which is... fine, I guess? But a broader reading is that there's a player who's really unsatisfied with the lists he wants to play, because he can't seem to do it successfully.

And there are a lot of echoes of that in later posts. But if you restate the problem as "I can't seem to find people who want to play the same kind of games I do," it's a totally reasonable problem to have--but it's also a familiar one, and not that difficult to solve.

The first thing is that this isn't a problem that's unique to X-wing. You could substitute literally any board game with alternate rules or customizable elements, and the same thing is true. When you play Monopoly, what rules did your family use when you were growing up? When you sit down with a new group for a game of Power Grid, which maps do people like? When you play bridge in a new setting, are there any bidding conventions they use that you might not know?

Hell, it's not even unique to board games and minis games. When you're trying to date someone new, how do you find out if you have compatible interests? Do you both want kids? Is your prospective partner a traveling kind of person or a homebody? Do you both love to cook, love to eat, love to do both, or neither?

And the second thing is that it looks to me as if the solution (whether it's X-wing or dating) is to talk to your prospective partners. Locally, we only have 6 or 8 regular players, and while the FLGS is happy to host us, they don't currently have a regular X-wing night. So we usually organize our own ad-hoc games via text, e-mail, or (usually) Facebook. And those conversations almost all start the same way: "What do you want to run tonight?"

I think that's part of the reason I still enjoy this game. If I was playing against small variations on the same rotating cast of four very popular lists over and over again, I probably would get bored. Instead, for example, I'm meeting a friend this evening for a game, and he has a new TIE swarm he wants to try out. He's worried about how it matches up against new-meta things like the Ghost, so I'm running a list that's fairly new to me rather than my reliable Palpatine Aces list. Another friend is going to be playing a parallel game at the same time, and he wants practice playing against bombs and ordnance--so that's what his opponent is coming up with for tonight.

It's not hard, at least for us, to negotiate who's going to play what, and as a result there's a lot of variation from game to game. I still get plenty of tournament-style practice in, and often against other common tournament lists--but it's because I say "I'm looking for tournament practice tonight, so bring your best game." It's just... not a problem.

So I wonder whether a big part of the problem described over the course of this thread is that people sit down together without talking, and only when they're laying out their components do they find out that their expectations for the terms of the game don't match up.

At the risk of stepping on my own post, I also think the idea that there's some hard-and-fast boundary between casual and competitive players is pretty dumb. There are certainly casual and competitive games, in terms of the degree of adherence to the rules on things like missed opportunities, how long you play, how much you drink, etc. But there's no such thing as a casual or competitive list.

The distinction I think is important is what you're planning to do with the list you're playing. Are you trying to understand the synergies and playstyle of an unfamiliar faction? Are you experimenting with combos you might want to incorporate into a tournament list? Is it the list you're actually intending to take to Regionals next month? Did you just throw something together in five minutes because it sounded thematic and fun and looked like it would at least be functional? Those are all different scenarios, and call for different attitudes and kinds of opposition.

So... at the risk of repeating myself, tell your opponent what kind of list you're running, and if your opponent wants to do something very different, then just shake hands and find a different opponent.

I'm a little nonplussed by this thread.

The narrowest reading of the OP is that someone who misunderstands a lot of rules isn't aware that Rebels have been winning a plurality of tournament games for years now. And people piled on, which is... fine, I guess? But a broader reading is that there's a player who's really unsatisfied with the lists he wants to play, because he can't seem to do it successfully.

...

So I wonder whether a big part of the problem described over the course of this thread is that people sit down together without talking, and only when they're laying out their components do they find out that their expectations for the terms of the game don't match up.

I think identifying the problem is the first step. Sometimes people get frustrated, but have a hard time putting their finger on exactly what it is that's annoying them. It's especially true if everyone they play with just says, "Bring harder lists, dude". So, figuring out what's bugging you about not having fun is the first step. It might not be readily visible to the dissatisfied.

Once you figure out what is bugging you, you then have to find people that want to play like minded games. I have had issues with this at times (which is why I'm very satisfied with my current group). There are some people that just don't want to play anything other than practice games with their tournament list. These people are going to SC's and need to get practice with their lists. Very reasonable. They don't really want to spend their precious and limited time playing X-wing with something that doesn't further them forward to victory. I know it can be annoying when looking and it might take some effort to find the right group. I think people should try, though. There might be challenges right before tournament season, but then really easy right afterwards when people are burnt out. I have been the big advocate for the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster in my local game store, but family seems to have kept me going every other week. I've heard from some people that they liked being able to play serious lists one week and then casual games the next. So, that has worked out well.

Personally, I decided I'm going to try to seriously get into casual gaming. I decided not to go to any Store Championships this year.....right when I think my Tie Bomber list would do really well. I'm trying to get others in my local store into casual gaming, as well. Now, I know there are some guys that will dabble, but really like playing their hard tournament lists. I know other guys that have basically quit X-wing that are starting to get back into playing just for the HotAC campaign. I'm hoping I can draw enough from both sides to do all sorts of crazy events. I think it would be fun. I want to post more about them on these forums because I think there are a lot of people who have just not even thought about variants before and would probably have a good time with them.

So I wonder whether a big part of the problem described over the course of this thread is that people sit down together without talking, and only when they're laying out their components do they find out that their expectations for the terms of the game don't match up.

I kind of wonder about that myself. I mean how many people are playing true pickup games with some random person, vs having a group of people you play with on a regular basis. Because if it's the latter then there's really no reason for not to at least discuss the type of game you'd like to play prior to starting to play.

Talk to the group and say "Hey I'm bored with playing the latest meta lists can we play something else for the next 3-4 sessions?"

But if you have enough people playing that random games actually is a possibility it seems you'd have enough people to make some sort of league that you could limit what lists are allowed.

I'm sure there's people out there who have a small group of people dedicated to chasing the meta and only playing tournament worthy lists, but I have to believe that small groups like that are fairly rare.

The game is still fantastic but I think the novelty of it being new and cool is wearing off on some people .... plus the hype from episode VII is died down, that attracted a lot of new people here in the area

A side thought...

One thing that bugs me greatly about threads like these, is the sometimes thinly veiled and sometimes not veiled at all insults aimed at people who enjoy competitive gaming.

There's been a few in this thread and some in other threads. But the simple fact is that playing casually is not somehow morally or ethically superior. It is not more in line with the spirit of the game. It is not a better way to play. And frankly given the attitude some people display I think the problem is that person's attitude in general.

I mean how many people are going to go out of their way to accommodate someone when that person treats them like they're somehow inferior because of how they like to play a game?