Regarding your complaints

-Named Tie Swarms having no Rebel equivalent. Granted. This is entirely because the Tie Fighter is iconic and has tons of pilots while the Z-95 only has 2 in each of it's factions. I think you're overestimating the power of the named Ties as well. They do have powerful abilities, certainly, but we're also talking about the ship nicknamed "the soap bubble" by certain individuals on this forum. If unique Tie Fighters didn't have awesome abilities, nobody would take them since they're so fragile.

-The Tie Advanced was formerly the worst ship in the game prior to the release of the Tie/x1 title. It needed that free system. Badly.

-Imperial Veterans adds some nice options to a ship with a limited role and a rather glaring flaw (Low PS Tie Bombers really struggle to get Target locks), while the defender was inefficient and needed a bit of a boost (It did still show up in tournaments on occasion because it's unique capabilities allowed it to do things no other ship did, which allowed players who knew the ship very well to pull off surprising tricks). There's an argument to be made that the tie/x7 title went a bit too far, but we'll have to wait and see if the X7 Defender truly becomes a problem (How is it doing on Vassal right now?)

-Bossk is somewhat unique, true. On the other hand, no Imperial ship can do what Poe/Ezra/Luke can do. Nor is there a scum Miranda. And so on. Anyway, it sounds like your real complaint against Bossk was born of your metagame not following the rules, which is always unfortunate to find out, but can easily happen in a non-competitive environment.

-The Scyk... Is generally considered the worst ship in the game now that Vader no longer is going into gunfights with a foam baseball bat. While it can equip a Heavy Laser cannon for 23 points, that's more expensive than an X-wing or B-wing for an incredibility fragile ship.

-Horton ought to have had an EPT. Wave 1 had a lot of design mistakes.

-The Z-95 vs. the Scyk and Tie Fighter... The Z-95 is stronger in a straight up slugfest compared to a Tie Fighter in exchange for being less maneuverable. The Scyk I already mentioned.

-Ghost pilots do not have EPTs for Balance reasons. As for the TAP, the Inquisitor's ability is the only way a 2 dice Imperial Ace could function. At all.

Being Evil has never been soooo Good. Come to the dark side

[...]

And for your frustration against the new TIE fighters, an auto-correct ghost can just delete them. One a turn, no evade dice necessary.

[...]

The TIE still get to roll their dice right? If they roll two evades won't they cancel even the Auto-Corrector?

Autocorrect Ghost uses an autoblaster turret and accuracy corrector so the TIEs can roll but cannot cancel hits, which is all that will be available. Basically the autocorrect Ghost kills one ship of 4 or less HP at Range 1 every turn.

The game isn't fun anymore because of the competitive player focus on the meta. The competitive players are drowning out the players who thought X-Wing would be a game to throw some 'interesting combinations of ships'' together. In the time I have been playing (I started when Rebel Aces was released), the meta really has changed the game to the point where competitive play lists totally dominate casual play lists. Sure, well and good - thus the different adjectives: 'casual' versus 'competitive'. So the first part of the game becoming un-fun really has to do with the people who play it.

Competitive X-Wing play reminds me of the worst of Magic The Gathering, and I'll leave it at that.

The game has also lost a ton of fun because of the power creep and what appears to me to be a clear lack of concern for the consequences of new releases.

TLT/K-Wing drove me out of the game. I saw so many versions of TLT lists that it became nauseating. The way TLT could work with the Tactician card (no limit stress) and the Stress Hawg led me to the conclusion that balancing older stuff against newer stuff was low priority. I look at the difference between Flechette torpedoes/Flechette cannon and TLT/Tactician/Stresshog and I do perceive that as an indisputable sign of power creep.

When I played against my first Tractor Beam (on Vasssal, prior to official release), I knew I had to quit. A one-point, range-3 cannon that can brick you/move you out of your firing arc was more than I can stand. Now I see that the Jumpmaster contracted scout is so amazingly versatile that it is again clear to me that balance between new and old source material is getting further out of whack.

There are far too many 360-degree shooters now.

No upper-limit on stress effects makes them over-powered against a lot of ships, plain and simple, which means those ships are poor choices in the meta.

I don't think the tractor beam makes any sense at all in balance or capability.

I don't think the game can attract new members because there are so many poor ships for competitive play. I don't think it can attract new members because of the cost in this ever-evolving pay-to-win design tradition and release schedule.

I don't think the game is fun anymore. I don't recommend it to new players. It is a game of the haves and the have-nots.

X-wing is attracting the competitive crowd that 40k drove away, no question. It being practice season for Store Championships and Regionals doesn't help if you're burntbout on the casual game. However, not everything you're talking about is power creep.

Tactician and the Stresshog being superior to Flechette weapons is not power creep but rebalancing because Flechette Cannon is just bad while Flechette Torpedoes were hobbled by the ordnance mechanics (With Long Range Sensors and Guidance Chips, we should see Flechette Torpedoes come back on missile heavy builds). Power creep is when the new options force everything else to be rebalanced, not when better versions of bad options are released. Stress mechanics are a critical part of the metagame because they keep ships like the Tie Interceptor in check. And the Tie Interceptor is clearly not in trouble at the moment, so I don't see a problem.

The jumpmaster is the new release so it's getting a lot of attention, but it looks to be a balanced ship with strengths and weaknesses. Best to wait a few months for counter strategies to be developed before claiming the sky is falling.

Tractor Beam is potent and will require an adjustment to some strategies, but can be countered by putting yourself in a position where no boost or barrel roll will move you out of firing position. Tricky, certainly, but not impossible.

Complexity Creep is a legitimate concern. However, the game isn't really any more complex than, say, M:TG Modern or most Wargames (And it doesn't hold a candle to M:TG's legacy format). And of course, nothing stops you from playing casual games. The existence of Eldrazi combos or Countertop or Zoo doesn't stop kitchen table magic- there's no reason it should disrupt casual X-wing. It might require the community to develop a clearer casual vs. competitive boundary, but that's just growing pains.

Speaking as a predominantly Scum player, the game is becoming more and more fun with each passing wave.

I didn't know the meaning of fun until I circle strafed a ghost to death with Dengar/Punishing one. While taking no damage.

Scum has finally taken its rightful place as, officially, undeniably, bestest funnest faction.

The TIE still get to roll their dice right? If they roll two evades won't they cancel even the Auto-Corrector?

Autoblaster Turret. Combining ABT and AC creates a 4 damage death zone around the VCX.

Too lazy to read all 4 pages of responses but I'll just throw this obvious suggestion, which I think HeyChadwick also suggested..... stop playing in competitive tournaments. Seems pretty simple that if you don't like the competitive people/scene, then play casual games only.

This thread is Zzzzwing

You know, I thought we'd at least make it to regionals before we saw the "rebels are so underpowered" complaints, especially coming off the back of a wave where the most common complaint was probably "rebels are so overpowered".

Suddenly ordnance has utility as a damage spike against regen and stresshogs, and the sky falls in.

I almost went on a rant, but I deleted it. Here's a summary: Rebels are 100% fine. Scum got some much needed new toys, in a fairly stale meta. It caused a shake up you don't like, but that was very much needed. It'll evolve and grow, and balance itself out with innovative lists, many of which we'll see at regionals.

Lastly, if the fact that Rebel lists aren't always winning for you is a point which removes a fun element, you need to reflect on your approach the the game.

[...]

And for your frustration against the new TIE fighters, an auto-correct ghost can just delete them. One a turn, no evade dice necessary.

[...]

The TIE still get to roll their dice right? If they roll two evades won't they cancel even the Auto-Corrector?

Autocorrect Ghost uses an autoblaster turret and accuracy corrector so the TIEs can roll but cannot cancel hits, which is all that will be available. Basically the autocorrect Ghost kills one ship of 4 or less HP at Range 1 every turn.

The TIE still get to roll their dice right? If they roll two evades won't they cancel even the Auto-Corrector?

Autoblaster Turret. Combining ABT and AC creates a 4 damage death zone around the VCX.

Okay I don't have the rules in front of me so I apoligize if I'm being a little slow here. It isn't on purpose.

• AutoCorrector cancels all die results and adds two - Not four.
• AutoBlasterTurret is only two hits
• I thought AutoBlaster's ability only applied to the AutoBlaster.

So if you're shooting with AC and anything that's only two hits total that can be canceled.

If your shooting with the ABT that's only two hit because range doesn't work on secondary weapons. Okay these cannot be canceled.

If your shooting with the Primary Weapon that is 4 dice, 5 at range one but if you use AC it reduces it to two and you can cancel those. The ABT abiltiy shouldn't apply to the Primary Weapon should it?

I'm still lost. Sorry

[Edit Ohh if you add the Phantom you're saying the ABT can fire twice and using the AC with the ABT twice is what gets the 4 die that can't be canceled. I'm slow but I got there.]

X-wing is attracting the competitive crowd that 40k drove away, no question. It being practice season for Store Championships and Regionals doesn't help if you're burntbout on the casual game. However, not everything you're talking about is power creep.

I've been playing since Wave 1 and it's not always power creep. Sometimes it's just what the meta is like. When Fat Han dominated, that turned some people away from the game. When Phantoms ruled, it drove some people away. TLT's is driving people away. Shield Regen is driving people away. Sure, more people fill in after them, but there are people that walk away from the game because the current meta is against what drew them into the game in the first place. It's not wrong, but it is a shame.

I've had a lot of luck drawing in some of the players who quit with the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster campaign. They like X-wing, but they just hate the competitive scene.

I've also done Dagobah Dave's Trench Run scenario before and that always draws in a lot of people. I've gotten a 8 x 10 ft table with Death Star print down, an actual trench in the middle, and paper turrets up. Blast the Star Wars music and it's a lot of fun. It always comes down to that one make it or break it shot at the end....and the Rebels so far keep blowing it! Maybe Integrated Astromech will make a difference.

the meta really has changed the game to the point where competitive play lists totally dominate casual play lists.

A competitive list by its very nature is designed to be effective, and efficient against all comers, it needs to be able to deal with anything that's thrown at it and win. If it can't do this, it's not a competitive list.

A casual list is designed to use a trick or designed around some sort of theme. It is not designed to be effective and efficient against all comers.

So a competitive list will dominate over a casual one, if it doesn't it's not a very good competitive list. And again this isn't an issue with X-Wing it's true of every game out there, because competitive lists are designed to win, casual ones are not.

This isn't even a problem it's just the nature of competitive games. But it again has been true of X-Wing since wave 1 when the Tie Swarm ruled the skies.

I think the real issue is that OP was playing an entirely different game. As others have mentioned, a 4-5 ace rebel list with upgrades has never been possible (except for a few outliers detailed above), while the same list concept on the Imperial side has been possible since wave 1. If your argument is that an (admittedly slightly over costed) X-Wing should cost as much as a TIE, then I just don't know what to say. The X-Wing is also the only comparison that can be made in another regard: number of named pilots (8 for X, 10 for TIE). The TIE fighter is the standard baseline ship in X-Wing (I know, it's odd that the standard is not the ship it's named for). It is the standard by which all other costs and ships are measured. The X-Wing needs a little help, that much most people on the forums agree on. However, no matter what happens to the X-Wing, a 4-5 rebel ace list has (almost) never been viable and (most likely) will never be viable. And in my humble opinion, the very best pilot abilities have a very high concentration on the rebel side. Yeah, imperials have Vader and Soontir and the inquisitor (which is really just an a-wing with a 3 die secondary weapon if you think about it) and scum has IG, Dengar and a few others of note. Rebels have:

Poe

Wedge

Han

Dash

Tycho

Corran

Ghost and Attack Shuttle pilots

Miranda

Keyan

Jan

Kyle

These are some of the best pilot abilities in the game before you start talking about the EPT choices for most of them, other available upgrades, and other factors. Can rebels use as many in a single squad? No. But they are spoiled for choice at the list building stage with so many pilot abilities that alter the fundamental rules of the game. From changing the way focus works to ignoring obstacles for all practical purposes to built in regeneration and completely changing the ramifications of stress. Rebels are in great shape and will continue to do so. In fact, aside from palp aces, imperials are the ones who need help, and they are getting it with a pack that will make defenders the threat they should be.

the meta really has changed the game to the point where competitive play lists totally dominate casual play lists.

This has to be one of the most asinine statements I've heard in some time... This has been true since wave 1. Competitive lists always dominate 'casual' lists. It also happens in every game out there.

[...]

Very true but,

I agree this is true and is missing the point, at least in my experience. Competitive lists will, as you say, always dominate 'casual lists'. I've played a two different LGS and what is happening here is very competitive people (not all attend tournaments but many) and their highly competitive lists is pushing out casual players and their casual builds. It is tough to take what you think is a really cool squad and get beaten up every time. Some are nice and they'll tell you they are testing their tournament build, but the result is often the same. This isn't just my observation but I've heard it from others whom you might recognize. It's a hard game to keep up with for casual players especially when this happens.

and their highly competitive lists is pushing out casual players and their casual builds. It is tough to take what you think is a really cool squad and get beaten up every time.

If someone expects to win against a Tie Swarm, or Fel and RAC or Super Dash with a casual list, then the problem is with their expectations not the game. If they are tired of getting beat every time then play a more competitive list. It's not like doing so will violate your moral code or something.

Also people need to recognize that this game has from the start been competitive by nature. It's two people trying to beat each other, and that hasn't changed since wave 1. It was built around the 100 point 6 asteroid death match.

If people don't like playing that way, then they can and should try to do something about it, make a casual group that plays 150 point lists or limits how many points you can spend on a given ship or limit it to only ships from wave 1-3 or something. If they can't find enough like minded people to play with, then that means they should either change their expectations or perhaps find something else to do. It's not like they have some sort of greater claim on the game, and the people who enjoy it competitively should change how they play.

But again, the game hasn't actually changed that much since wave 2. They've added more ships and such, and the meta changes but the core of the game is still the same as it always was, which is in part a competitive event.

Edit: That's not a Love it or Leave!!! type statement. I'm just saying that the game is the game, and it has always been competitive by nature. If people find the current meta makes the game unenjoyable to them, then perhaps they should step away from the game for while until things change again.

Because one thing you can count on, is that the meta will change every wave. You can also count on people looking for the most effective builds and playing with them. But neither of those are new things.

And also, there are co-op games out there, if that's more your speed. Heck, FFG makes a lot of them. Warhammer Quest: adventure card game, Imperial Assault campaign if you need your Star Wars fix, Elder Sign, RPGs, etc...

If you don't love crafting a competitive list as part of the game, maybe taking a break is a good idea. Then again, when I lose this game I still have a ton of fun.

And finally, what exactly makes a list "competitive" or "casual"? Is a "casual" list like a couple B-Wings with every upgrade slot filled? Because that's not casual, that's just a bad list. In a competitive game like this (and here I mean competitive as in head to head conflict, not organized play), part of the game is to build an effective list. You can try new combos and stuff, but if you are going to play against someone who you know is going to bring something like triple u-boats or palp aces to the table, why would you hobble yourself?

and their highly competitive lists is pushing out casual players and their casual builds. It is tough to take what you think is a really cool squad and get beaten up every time.

If someone expects to win against a Tie Swarm, or Fel and RAC or Super Dash with a casual list, then the problem is with their expectations not the game. If they are tired of getting beat every time then play a more competitive list. It's not like doing so will violate your moral code or something.

Also people need to recognize that this game has from the start been competitive by nature. It's two people trying to beat each other, and that hasn't changed since wave 1. It was built around the 100 point 6 asteroid death match.

If people don't like playing that way, then they can and should try to do something about it, make a casual group that plays 150 point lists or limits how many points you can spend on a given ship or limit it to only ships from wave 1-3 or something. If they can't find enough like minded people to play with, then that means they should either change their expectations or perhaps find something else to do. It's not like they have some sort of greater claim on the game, and the people who enjoy it competitively should change how they play.

But again, the game hasn't actually changed that much since wave 2. They've added more ships and such, and the meta changes but the core of the game is still the same as it always was, which is in part a competitive event.

Edit: That's not a Love it or Leave!!! type statement. I'm just saying that the game is the game, and it has always been competitive by nature. If people find the current meta makes the game unenjoyable to them, then perhaps they should step away from the game for while until things change again.

Because one thing you can count on, is that the meta will change every wave. You can also count on people looking for the most effective builds and playing with them. But neither of those are new things.

Actually, I agree with most of this. The game is competitive. When I play a casual game or a mission or a scenario....I play to win. I might not build a tournament ready list, but I try to win with whatever I do bring. The game is competitive.

It can also be casual, though. If you don't happen to like the tournament level game, then that's OK, too. You don't have to "build a better list" if you don't want to. You just have to find one of the many other cool ways to play the game. I've found it might be a little challenging at first to find the right people or the right type of a game, but prepping people ahead of time by making posts to Facebook groups, etc., is a good way to find the players you want.

It's worth it if you can find some players that are looking for the same type of gaming as you.

the meta really has changed the game to the point where competitive play lists totally dominate casual play lists.

This has to be one of the most asinine statements I've heard in some time... This has been true since wave 1. Competitive lists always dominate 'casual' lists. It also happens in every game out there.

[...]

Very true but,

I agree this is true and is missing the point, at least in my experience. Competitive lists will, as you say, always dominate 'casual lists'. I've played a two different LGS and what is happening here is very competitive people (not all attend tournaments but many) and their highly competitive lists is pushing out casual players and their casual builds. It is tough to take what you think is a really cool squad and get beaten up every time. Some are nice and they'll tell you they are testing their tournament build, but the result is often the same. This isn't just my observation but I've heard it from others whom you might recognize. It's a hard game to keep up with for casual players especially when this happens.

Considering that every casual game I played during wave 5 had a Phantom and/or Fat Turret in it, I don't see why this is suddenly an issue now and those were far more NPE causing to someone without a counter.

Considering that every casual game I played during wave 5 had a Phantom and/or Fat Turret in it, I don't see why this is suddenly an issue now and those were far more NPE causing to someone without a counter.

I almost quit during this time. I know some people who did.

Think OP needs to just play casual for a little bit. Just get your normal peeps and just up the 100 points to like 110points. It does wonderful things for your squad. Sometimes you are left with 17pts, oh boy I get a naked Awing or a Z with a missile. But with that extra 10pts, you can have Hobbie and a TA doing Kturns, or Jake bouncing around the board. Or have your normal three man squad but load up a few torpedoes/bombs. Mix it up a bit. Or make a rule all pilots get 1 extra EPT slot. You dont have to follow tourney rules. Try a few of the missions, it will make you bust out that Falcon again, or those Bwings.

Someone around here just won a 25 person SC with Corran, Jake, Gemmer build. Rebels are still a "force" in this game.

This first part isn't aimed at Heychadwick or any one person really...

It seems to me that in part I can use a MMO meme... 'oh noes PvP happened'

I mean seriously, this is by it's nature a competitive game and if a competitive game isn't what you want then why are you here? It's honestly like people complaining about PvP happening in a MMO on a PvP server.

I get not everyone wants to fly what's seen at the new hotness, but that doesn't mean you can't fly a well designed list and win even against it. Myself I'll never buy 3 Jumpmasters, I may not even buy one. But that's not going to stop me from making good solid lists that can win. Like FatherTurin casual doesn't mean 2 50 point B-Wings either.

What bothers me is when someone comes to a game that's designed one way, and wants to change the core of the game to suit their own preference. Which is different than issues with the current meta, but if your issue is with the meta, then either find a way to beat it, or go do something else until it changes. Start a casual league, play HotAC ect... But don't come here expecting the people who are having fun to change how we do things for your sake.

It's worth it if you can find some players that are looking for the same type of gaming as you.

Exactly and if you can't find a group that does that... Then perhaps you need to consider why you're here and what you want out of the game.

I know some people who did.

And again, the Phantom Menace meta changed, just like the double pancake, the HSF and Tie Swarm meta has changed. There's nothing wrong with saying 'I don't like how the game is played currently' and either doing something else with X-Wing or doing something else completely.

It's not like if you walk away for 3 months all your ships are going to gets spoiled and have to be thrown out.

and their highly competitive lists is pushing out casual players and their casual builds. It is tough to take what you think is a really cool squad and get beaten up every time.

[...]

If people don't like playing that way, then they can and should try to do something about it, [...] If they can't find enough like minded people to play with, then that means they should either change their expectations or perhaps find something else to do. [...]

Edit: That's not a Love it or Leave!!! type statement. I'm just saying that the game is the game, and it has always been competitive by nature. [...]

I didn't take as Love it or Leave it at all. But to your point that is what I was saying. Some people are leaving it and others have shared that newer players aren't picking it up. So they are finding something else to do. That's all.

There is still a big fan base and it's a very popular game in terms of sales and tournaments. But, at least in my area and on some forums people have commented about it.

I still like the game. But I doubt I would be in it at all if it wasn't Star Wars.

I really think it's about time for someone to start a casual based X-wing podcast. There are a lot of good podcasts out there, but they all focus on tournament play. They help spread the idea of building hard as nails lists all the time. I think a podcast out there for all the casual players would be a good thing. Maybe some people won't quit or maybe some normally tournament only style gamers will find a new love for X-wing in a different format.

I'm starting one soon....

I really think it's about time for someone to start a casual based X-wing podcast. There are a lot of good podcasts out there, but they all focus on tournament play. They help spread the idea of building hard as nails lists all the time. I think a podcast out there for all the casual players would be a good thing. Maybe some people won't quit or maybe some normally tournament only style gamers will find a new love for X-wing in a different format.

I'm starting one soon....

I have an idea who might be a good candidate for that task.

I really think it's about time for someone to start a casual based X-wing podcast.

Good idea. Could also use it as a source for people looking to start a casual league of some sort. If nothing else it might help people who don't like competitive play or the casual meta to see that there are people out there who share their opinions.