25 points? Explain to me what they were thinking. I've seen concerns in the long thread, but this thread is specifically about the ideas that bought about this costing.

Just off the top of my head, and because I'm a bit of a fan of the YT-2400.

Firstly, an EPT on a PS 3 generic? This is my biggest W.T.F. moment.

Compare to Eaden Vrill @ 32 points and the Wild SpaceFringers @ 30 with much more limited upgrade options and only one more shield.

I'm sure there are better mathwingers than me and other arguments and comparisons.

Discuss.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Triple U-Boat is OP as suggested above because of the Deadeye Agromech combo. But it's good that triple U-Boat is OP, the new meta it creates is going to be great.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Triple U-Boat is OP as suggested above because of the Deadeye Agromech combo. But it's good that triple U-Boat is OP, the new meta it creates is going to be great.

I believe that it isn't OP, merely powerful, particularly against the up-until-recently dominant ideas of power.

compare to K-wing @ 23, not overcosted large ships

Jumpmaster is certainly gaining a lot for 2 points, but it is also gaining four times the base size. This can be good at times, but it also means four times the chance of bumping and running aground on obstacles.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

But Deadeye is an EPT, and thus my point in that regard stands.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Triple U-Boat is OP as suggested above because of the Deadeye Agromech combo. But it's good that triple U-Boat is OP, the new meta it creates is going to be great.

I believe that it isn't OP, merely powerful, particularly against the up-until-recently dominant ideas of power.

I suppose so. Palp Aces is broken af as are other Acewings like Poe, not crying any tears about those types of ships not dominating anymore.

Regen a shield, in hell.

If every other game Soontir immediately has 4 Homing Missiles devastating his butthole he won't be played as much either.

Yeah the generics on the old large ships are overcosted, but I like it that way. There really should be only one model that even looks like the Falcon on the board. Ever.

Why would they overprice a new ship which they hope to see play time?

Part of the low cost may be that scum is kind of lacking prior to wave 8, but really if it is too cheap it isn't by much at all, the YT's are way too expensive for the generics. I'm ok with just about anything that makes people chose not to run a bunch of TLT's.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

But Deadeye is an EPT, and thus my point in that regard stands.

We should have more ships with EPTs... it is good that they're making them. It's also pretty clear that Deadeye is a significant reason they have that slot.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

But Deadeye is an EPT, and thus my point in that regard stands.

We should have more ships with EPTs... it is good that they're making them. It's also pretty clear that Deadeye is a significant reason they have that slot.

More PS3 generics? I think you are missing the point.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Seeing as how ORS has been around for years and newer expansions have driven the cost down, it would be more reasonable to use it as a benchmark and say that the rest is undercosted.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Seeing as how ORS has been around for years and newer expansions have driven the cost down, it would be more reasonable to use it as a benchmark and say that the rest is undercosted.

Having been around for years has nothing to do with whether it's priced right. How often have yous een an ORS or even a WSF on table? There were a copule lists that used the ORS early on, but when was the last time you saw rebel convoy? The generic YTs are trash. They're overcosted, which is why they never get played. Just because similar old ships are overcosted and useless doesn't mean NEW ones should be overcosted and useless as a result. It means they can learn their lesson and actually cost something at a useable price.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

According to the playtesters I've talked to, they didn't even think about this.

ORS, WSF, and Vrill are just overcosted.

Seeing as how ORS has been around for years and newer expansions have driven the cost down, it would be more reasonable to use it as a benchmark and say that the rest is undercosted.

Having been around for years has nothing to do with whether it's priced right. How often have yous een an ORS or even a WSF on table? There were a copule lists that used the ORS early on, but when was the last time you saw rebel convoy? The generic YTs are trash. They're overcosted, which is why they never get played. Just because similar old ships are overcosted and useless doesn't mean NEW ones should be overcosted and useless as a result. It means they can learn their lesson and actually cost something at a useable price.

Sure I have, but then again, I don't measure everything by its competitive standing.

It's really sad to see how many people are calling ships terrible because they think tournament dogfights are all there is.

Why would you want to FFG to hold future designs to the bar set by past designs that don't see play?

Should EPTs be balanced around Expose?

That is just a stupid standard to want FFG to design within.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

According to the playtesters I've talked to, they didn't even think about this.

I would question their methods if they didn't pick up on the obvious ordnance build.

My impression with the Scouts is more to do with the Argomech and Deadeye, and less to do with the actual ship.

According to the playtesters I've talked to, they didn't even think about this.

They really need some new playtesters . No deadeye/r4. No quad TLT. What else do they miss?

It's really sad to see how many people are calling ships terrible because they think tournament dogfights are all there is.

Why would you want to FFG to hold future designs to the bar set by past designs that don't see play?

Should EPTs be balanced around Expose?

That is just a stupid standard to want FFG to design within.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it is silly (stupid is such harsh word don't you think, it's almost as if you're calling me stupid, which I am sure was not your intention), I'm saying that it is silly to say something is overcosted just because newer stuff has come out that has driven the price down.

The price was correct for the time, it might be expensive now, too much so, but it was not a mistake in costing at that time.

On the other hand, they could have kept the same costing regime and changed the 100 point format which might have been easier. Given themselves more leeway with the cost of upgrades.

People who actually have fun with the game outside of the competitive element (and there are many) are not overly concerned with the ORS price tag.

Green Squadron Pilots have an EPT at PS 3.

Hell, technically they have two.

It's really sad to see how many people are calling ships terrible because they think tournament dogfights are all there is.

They're not all there is, but they are all that's really worth talking about in these kind of topics.

Are the ORS and WSF good for casual play? Well, yes. Of course they are, it's casual play. Anything goes in that environment. Do you really expect everyone to put an asterisk at the end of posts pointing that out?

No, but it is also idiotic to keep calling ships trash, which they are patently not. It sets a sentiment for the developers to pick up and look for fixes and that way lies power creep. Every ship that isn't top tier is loudly decried to be in need of a fix.

This, by the way, also influences new people who take a peek here into shying away from certain ships because they are told, loudly, that the ships they would like are bad.

If the average player here had their say, every ship would be the same.

The price was correct for the time, it might be expensive now, too much so, but it was not a mistake in costing at that time.

That's debatable, but if that's the truth, we need to stop kidding ourselves and admit this is identifiable as power creep.

And I disagree that the discussion on these boards about what ships/pilots/upgrades are good and what are not hurts those playing casually at all, or even competitively. People will run what they want. For some, it's what they are told is good. For others, it is running what they are told is not good (see Operator, Kinetic).

25 points? Explain to me what they were thinking.

Even 3-attack PWTs with epic PSes and boost suffer right now.

Imagine being a PS3 2 attack PWT. You just NEVER punch through the aces that compose 80% of the meta!

Why would you want to FFG to hold future designs to the bar set by past designs that don't see play?

Should EPTs be balanced around Expose?

That is just a stupid standard to want FFG to design within.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it is silly (stupid is such harsh word don't you think, it's almost as if you're calling me stupid, which I am sure was not your intention), I'm saying that it is silly to say something is overcosted just because newer stuff has come out that has driven the price down.

The price was correct for the time, it might be expensive now, too much so, but it was not a mistake in costing at that time.

On the other hand, they could have kept the same costing regime and changed the 100 point format which might have been easier. Given themselves more leeway with the cost of upgrades.

People who actually have fun with the game outside of the competitive element (and there are many) are not overly concerned with the ORS price tag.

Despite my post coming directly after yours I was not responding to you specifically, hence not quoting you. It was a comment on the general sentiment of thread. You simply posted as I was typing.

Calling a viewpoint someone has stupid is not in anyway calling that person stupid, there is no reason to assume as such. Plenty of very smart people have the capacity to have stupid ideas, and even a broken watch can be correct twice a day. If you can't differentiate between a criticism of a argument/viewpoint and attacks on a person then I'm sure not what to tell you.

To the rest of your post and some of your subsequent posts, you are misrepresenting people's position on the subject. People are not arguing that the ORS, WSF, or Vrill are overcosted based on subsequent release, they are plainly and clearly stating that they were overcosted from the get go. None of those ships have ever seen much play, the ORS had a very brief moment when there were a whole 4 ships available to the game. All of those ships were recognized very early for being exactly what people are describing them as, overcosted. Even without subsequent releases, as those subsequent releases only serve to highlight what was already known.

Casual playability is not a criteria in which to judge anything. It's a non criteria. Anything is casually viable, even things that are objectively bad. Casually viable begins and ends with anything and everything, so why or how would it ever be something to base a discussion around.

To restate; it would be very bad, misguided, and ill-informed for FFG to design future products to be on par with older releases that are just not very good. Some of FFGs releases are bad, and not because other things came out that were better, but just because they were bad. Hamstringing new releases because of bad releases only means more releases that undersell and do not see much play. That is not a good thing for FFG or players. It is not power creep to release EPTs that are strictly better then Expose, as Expose isn't the bar. Power creep in that situation would be releasing a EPT that is strictly superior to PTL, because that's the bar. The ORS, WSF, and Vrill are not bar and never were.

A PS 2 K-wing is 23 points.

A PS 3 Jumpmaster is 25.

Same: Attack 2, 9 health, crew, 2x torpedoes upgrade slots.

K-Wing better: bomb, missile, turret upgrade slots, small base.

Jumpmaster better: astromech, EPT upgrade slots, Agiliy 2.

Debatable: Dials/SLAM, base size.

The only thing that makes the Jumpmaster "broken" is access to 3 of the most combo-able upgrades in the game: EPT, astromech, crew. Had the K-Wing or TIE Punisher had access to Deadeye and R4, we would have seen the resurgence of torpedoes or missiles in Wave 7 instead of Wave 8.