So playing a friend this weekend and this came up.

We set up fleets/Cards. I have lower point total and make him take first move. Now we have everything set up he noticed that the Defiance card will not work and he wants to change it. I disagree and say those are the cards you set up and that is the build you must play with. The defiance card was one of the reason I gave him first move to void it out of his build. Do we have a rule that states that once you set up the fleet that the cards cannot or can be changed before the first move?

In informal games you can do whatever you like.

But per tournament rules once you've submitted your fleet list it cannot be changed.

In your case I'd talk it out. Why does he want to change. Why you did what you did and discuss changes you could make. Advanced intelligence on others fleets and objectives always changes your desired fleet composition and objective choices.

I mean this is your friend right if he want to change it let him but you start over.

In informal games you can do whatever you like.

But per tournament rules once you've submitted your fleet list it cannot be changed.

In your case I'd talk it out. Why does he want to change. Why you did what you did and discuss changes you could make. Advanced intelligence on others fleets and objectives always changes your desired fleet composition and objective choices.

I mean this is your friend right if he want to change it let him but you start over.

I let him discard it and he agreed let me pick the card of same point value to place on his ship, but as new players learning the rules we both wanted to know what the ruling was on this. See how the LTP book does not say you can or cannot. Thanks for the information

The whole point of the bid is to let the lower point player make decisions like you did based on the opponents fleet. Generally speaking even for an informal game I would say that once each of you has shared your point value for bid you can't make changes to your fleet. I don't know if you use one, but I'd suggest using a fleet builder so you can review it before committing to play that fleet. I use the Warlords fleet builder, even if I'm playing a pickup game I can use it on my phone

The whole point of the bid is to let the lower point player make decisions like you did based on the opponents fleet. Generally speaking even for an informal game I would say that once each of you has shared your point value for bid you can't make changes to your fleet. I don't know if you use one, but I'd suggest using a fleet builder so you can review it before committing to play that fleet. I use the Warlords fleet builder, even if I'm playing a pickup game I can use it on my phone

yes we both use the Warlords fleet builder and that was my whole point when we have a friendly disagreement.

During setup, the first thing you do is both players reveal their fleets. At this point, you're committed to that fleet for the purposes of that game, because the next step is that the player with the lower fleet point total chooses first or second player. The player who wins the bid is supposed to get to choose first or second player on the basis of knowing both fleet compositions, that's the whole point of the bid.

If you could just change your fleets willy-nilly after determining first or second player, would you then backtrack to re-determine who won the bid too? It entirely defeats the purpose.

Part of the nature of the fleet-building and bidding mechanics of the game is that sometimes you have upgrades that are just dead points. If your opponent didn't bring squadrons and you put Flight Controllers on your carrier, that's wasted points. Part of the challenge of designing a fleet is balancing how heavily to invest in specialization vs generalization, and that entire mechanic is driven by both players bringing set lists to the table and then playing them against each other.

Now, of course, none of this is to say that you can't do whatever you want in friendly games. But when he chose to use Defiance , your friend should have either considered how he could make it useful even if he didn't get second player, or bid very hard for initiative to ensure that he could choose second player. Defiance is a powerful title when used in its optimal situation. The trade-off for it's being so powerful is that it's useless outside of that situation. If you are allowed to just trade it out for something else if you find yourself in a game where it's not going to be optimal, you're in danger of increasing the power of that upgrade at the expense of other, more generalist upgrades.

I have a friend that builds his list when he shows up for a game, so he usually scouts out what is there. My other friend pointed out that if he did this the game would be harder and a better test of your own fleet. As such I just stopped caring and play and have fun, and now he wins a game here and there.

Choices have consequences. Good or bad, each choice nets a reaction. Newton's Law applies to choices.

Having said that, how did he think Defiance would not work? Was he only playing a single ship?

Choices have consequences. Good or bad, each choice nets a reaction. Newton's Law applies to choices.

Having said that, how did he think Defiance would not work? Was he only playing a single ship?

Yes he runs Single Mon Cal with fighters. Now that leads me to a new question.. What makes a Ship Active? My understanding was once you flip the dial that ship was active. So even with a two ship set up he would still not benefit from Defiance

If your opponent is a complete beginner then let him off but otherwise tough.

We have all wasted points on occasion buying tractor beams on a VSD and faced with 2xMC80, buying 4 Tie-I rather than Tie-F when the enemy brings no fighters etc. It is part of the game and the initiative bid works well for it. If your opponent took fewer points he could increase the chances of getting second player but that would mean dropping an upgrade or two which ironically could be the Defiance upgrade.

If you friend is bringing one M80 by itself, his fleet problems began at the concept stage. I'm guessing you ate this guy's lunch even with changing the upgrade.

If you friend is bringing one M80 by itself, his fleet problems began at the concept stage. I'm guessing you ate this guy's lunch even with changing the upgrade.

We are even on the W/L scale and most of it is me and my bad maneuvering of my ships

Were you playing a 300 point game? Most games, especially tournament games, are at 400 points now of which a maximum of 1/3 of the points can be spend on squadrons. As far as I know it is impossible to build 1-ship fleets. (or you have a very large bid). Having more ships would make Defiance less vulnerable to being first player.

If your opponent is a complete beginner then let him off but otherwise tough.

We have all wasted points on occasion buying tractor beams on a VSD and faced with 2xMC80, buying 4 Tie-I rather than Tie-F when the enemy brings no fighters etc. It is part of the game and the initiative bid works well for it. If your opponent took fewer points he could increase the chances of getting second player but that would mean dropping an upgrade or two which ironically could be the Defiance upgrade.

We both are beginners, but as we have gone a long we started to tighten up the rules. This past weekend we decided to play strictly by the rules(sure we still make mistakes). Then this issue came up and figured I would ask the Hive

Were you playing a 300 point game? Most games, especially tournament games, are at 400 points now of which a maximum of 1/3 of the points can be spend on squadrons. As far as I know it is impossible to build 1-ship fleets. (or you have a very large bid). Having more ships would make Defiance less vulnerable to being first player.

This game was a 300 point game and he loads up on Named fighters

Hid build is a full loaded MC80 AC with Acbar and his Squad is always Wedge, Luke, Han,Celchu and 1 Xwing placing him at 295

My Build is ISD v2 with Screed, Relentless, FC, EC and HTT Raider 1, 4 Tie Int, Howl and Dengar for 292 ( not the greatest set up for a 300 point game as I am finding out)

If your opponent is a complete beginner then let him off but otherwise tough.

We have all wasted points on occasion buying tractor beams on a VSD and faced with 2xMC80, buying 4 Tie-I rather than Tie-F when the enemy brings no fighters etc. It is part of the game and the initiative bid works well for it. If your opponent took fewer points he could increase the chances of getting second player but that would mean dropping an upgrade or two which ironically could be the Defiance upgrade.

We both are beginners, but as we have gone a long we started to tighten up the rules. This past weekend we decided to play strictly by the rules(sure we still make mistakes). Then this issue came up and figured I would ask the Hive

It depends on your group. When I'm teaching newer players, I let them get away with a lot because being a hardass about rules and punishing people for not automatically understanding a very complex game is a great way not to get them to play again.

Even with my friends who have equal experience to me, I'll be more strict with the rules (sorry you forgot to activate Han again!) but if, say, a shot comes down to a few mm on a range ruler, I'll typically let them have it. Armada isn't perfect in terms of miniatures being moved/shifted and unless it's clearly out of range it's not really worth arguing to me. Your mileage may vary but preserving friendships is more important to me than whose plastic ships get to stay on a table.

Stuff like that is up to judges in tournaments but I play Armada for fun, and getting heated over a few mm or a few dice isn't my idea of fun.

If your opponent is a complete beginner then let him off but otherwise tough.

We have all wasted points on occasion buying tractor beams on a VSD and faced with 2xMC80, buying 4 Tie-I rather than Tie-F when the enemy brings no fighters etc. It is part of the game and the initiative bid works well for it. If your opponent took fewer points he could increase the chances of getting second player but that would mean dropping an upgrade or two which ironically could be the Defiance upgrade.

We both are beginners, but as we have gone a long we started to tighten up the rules. This past weekend we decided to play strictly by the rules(sure we still make mistakes). Then this issue came up and figured I would ask the Hive

Sounds good. There's a huge learning curve at the beginning. When my friends were learning we realized something we were playing incorrectly almost every game.

I still remember back when we thought you could resolve as many crits as you rolled. God have mercy on the crews of those fallen ships...

Put it this way, I run Defiance alongside 4 corvettes. You WILL have activated all your ships by the time Defiance moves. Its all well and good putting tonnes of upgrades on Defiance, but the best upgrade it can have, is another corvette running alongside it. (up to a certain point when all your ships are uselessly under upgraded)

This question is really about fleet building. Its often more prudent to drop some upgrades in favour of thinking about how your fleet synergises.

Does your fleet force the order of your own activations? Think Overload Pulse ships first here, or Demolisher last.

What is your plan if they bring two ship builds?

What is your plan if they bring five ship builds?

How will you cope with squadrons?

How will you cope against no squadrons?

....

the list goes on. I find the list building stage to be really fun. If you ever want help with a list just pop it into the fleet building section of these forums!

List building and deployment count for a huge part of the game and I've won (and lost) games before the first ship was activated.

But, again, with beginners who don't know wtf they're doing, the objective is to learn the game and have fun rather than be a rules stickler. I've let people bring their ships back from off the table, reroll attacks, etc in the name of learning. Again, feeling like the game is oppressive and you have no recourse is the fastest way to stop playing.

Choices have consequences. Good or bad, each choice nets a reaction. Newton's Law applies to choices.

Having said that, how did he think Defiance would not work? Was he only playing a single ship?

Yes he runs Single Mon Cal with fighters. Now that leads me to a new question.. What makes a Ship Active? My understanding was once you flip the dial that ship was active. So even with a two ship set up he would still not benefit from Defiance

To activate a ship you need to have flipped a dial, moved the ship, and attempted to attack.