The problem, if you declare jousting to be dead (And Defenders are the first sign of something happening, intentionally or not) is that FFG have painted themselves into a corner.

X-wing

B-wing

Kithraxz

G1A

That's four ships, across two factions, two of whom already have specialised modifications, and one of whom already has a title.

If you continue to fix them one at a time, it's going to be a very, very long time until the mess is sorted out (either through raw efficiency or nu-jousting capabilities) - and these fixes will be trickling out while other, newer issues come up and need to be addressed in the meantime.

Rock and a hard place, eh?

So is the Ewing not a jouster?. It seems people play corran more as a jouster as well and not really a neo jouster or arc dodger.

Talking about the X-Wing specifically, I think BB-8 has done a lot for it, albeit only for one X-Wing at a time. From my experiences playing with BB-8 (usually with Wedge + Predator), I can't stress the utility of being able to slip sideways enough.

Unfortunately it does mean treading on the toes of the TIE Fighter a bit.

Alternatively, something I've always thought would help the X-Wing immeasurably is some way of grabbing an Evade token or a free Evade action. Unfortunately FFG have already taken up that design space with the x7 and v1 titles for the Defender and Advanced Prototype respectively.

It feels like all the best ways to revive the T-65 have already been taken by other ships.

so wait. we talk about jousting and don't talk about defenders? they are a great example of the old style pure jouster. This is partly why they were difficult to use. Then with the new titles coming out in imperial veterans it adds to their profile. This all neatly fits into the Neo-jouster category. starting with a good jousting base, and then boosting their efficiency either with actions (Tie /x7) or unique traits such as the TIE / D title.

Defenders are down there in neo-jousting, briefly mentioned

combination of white 4k (dat barrel-roll!) and incredible x7/control cannon is going to give them a lot of utility and positioning capabilities beyond "jousting"

I think the easiest way to boost Jousters is to limit repositioning actions. Arc dodgers treating the dial as an afterthought is ruining the game. Oh, and the way FFG keeps bukakke-ing new rules and upgrades into the game doesn't help.

The game is really starting to get bloated IMO, and is in need of a reboot.

Hothie, I think swarms do much more than 'joust' though. The prevalence of so many ships makes it so much easier to control movement and deny actions. I think jousters are usually considered as a single ship, or a small group of 3-4. Also, TIEs have the versatility of the barrel roll. If there was a howlrunner for rebels, would we see the same swarm with Z95s? My guess is no. They are not nimble enough, and can really struggle to navigate asteroids compared to TIEs. I have taken a missile swarm of Zs, and while it was fun to shake up my local scene and participate in a couple of regionals, the list as a whole felt very cumbersome after the initial salvo of missiles. After 3 months of training I was yearning to fly other ships that had more maneuvering flavor, and a more complex strategy than "Roll up and hit the scariest thing with missiles until it is dead". I'm now flying an 8 TIE swarm in the VASSAL league and it is nowhere near as stiff as the old Z swarm. I love the complexity of who to move first, where to barrel roll, and how to block those pesky aces. If I was running a XXXX, or XXBZZZ list I wouldn't really have as much enjoyment in the maneuver phase.

Ships that only have TL and focus for actions are in a much harder place because they feel more stale compared to others, which fickle states. The cherry on top is the lack of unique maneuvers. I am in no way talking down about FFG, most of these ships were designed early on. I love this game and trust the X wing will resurface as a solid ship. A maneuver option would be my first choice, and it would be so awesome to get some of the old greats back on the table. BB8 has breathed life back into Wedge, but my generics still only find the table in casual games. The X Wing has interesting pilots, but that is about it at the moment.

StealthX title adding the cloak action for one point would be awesome, add in stygium and a 24 point rookie looks interesting! Wedge with BB8, Outmaneuver, and Stealth would be a great ship for 35 points.

I also think an Atanni Mindlink / IG2000 style title that lets X wings share astromech abilities would be a great way to get more generics on the field, although that would be very abusable (BB8, R2, R2D2, and R5P9 could all be in the same list...). Ah, if they could share generic astromech abilities that would be way better.

I have no thoughts for the Kihraxz. At least it has the 1 turn and illicit. Generics also with EPT as well. They're still not too common on the tables though.

So is the Ewing not a jouster?. It seems people play corran more as a jouster as well and not really a neo jouster or arc dodger.

Wtf?

the most common build with Corran is PTL, r2-d2, FCS, Engine Upgrade, that gives him a great dial, two actions per turn if he wishes, and BOOST AND BARRL ROLL, as the only 2 repositioning abilities so far in the game..... and he could use those both in 1 turn and still have efficient shooting becuase of the permanent target lock from FCS

wtf are you on about?

I think the easiest way to boost Jousters is to limit repositioning actions. Arc dodgers treating the dial as an afterthought is ruining the game. Oh, and the way FFG keeps bukakke-ing new rules and upgrades into the game doesn't help.

The game is really starting to get bloated IMO, and is in need of a reboot.

The basis of the game is hidden planning and movement, with no turrets when the game was 1st released, therefore, people dont want to get shot, therefore dodging arcs, therefore ergo, arc dodgers, therefore needing re positional abilities ergo, I hate your comment

You've forgotten 'Daredevil' there are 3 repositioning abilities in game so far.

Here is what I said on that other thread:

Jousting is dead.

Maybe it never really was alive.

Look back on even wave 1 and wave 2 and see who actually "jousted" and if they could do anything but joust.

I think there is a great deal of thought going into "jousting" at this stage when it really has no place in this modern game. TLTs don't joust they TURRET and control. Look at all "good jousters" (if there are any left) and they don't just joust. Just jousting has never really won when other options were available; jousting really only "won" when there wasn't better things to do or you had brought rock to a paper fight.

BBBBZ and classic swarm are the "last" big jousting lists. B's pack 14-18 red dice and 36hp. Swarm packs 14-24 dice and 21-24hp but protected by 3 AG. Both bring more dice to the fight, take up more real estate, have more arcs, more bodies to distribute, blocks for days, and BR. If these lists "just" joust, they lose too.

Jousting is gone if it ever really existed as a legitimate strategy rather than something that was done because there weren't other good options.

-------------------

Your neo jousters explain this well. There isn't anything left in the game that can just joust and expect success. I'd go as far as to say you can pretty well "delete" jousting from our current use as it just doesn't happen successfully.

So,if I'm reading you right, a TIE swarm:

1) Is dead

2) can't do anything but joust

3) has no place in this modern game

4) Just jousting has never really won

5) Jousting is gone if it ever really existed as a legitimate strategy

6) There isn't anything left in the game that can just joust and expect success

7) delete jousting from our current use because it doesn't happen successfully

I think I understand your points, but my Store Championship plaque disagrees with you. 29 people, 5 rounds of Swiss, plus top 4. 7-0 with Howlrunner, Backstabber, Dark Curse, 2XObsidian, 2XAcademy Pilot. No upgrades. Pure Wave 1 swarm vs seven rounds of everything legal up to Wave 8 because it wasn't released yet. I beat 2 Scum lists, 2 Rebel lists (one of them twice, round 5 and Finals), and 2 Imperial lists that both included Omega Leader. Every Swiss round I faced someone who was undefeated as well. And, generally, flying a TIE swarm takes loads of practice and mental fortitude, but I had played exactly one game in the past 5 months, so i was a little rusty. Plus I was trying an opening I've never tried before.

But with Wave 8 released, NOW the swarm is dead for sure. Pretty sure I've been hearing that phrase since Wave 2.

Yeah, you can keep saying the shark is dead and has no place int his game. I prefer to think of it as evolving.

On the contrary: if you just expect to line up your 7-8 ties and just joust you are likely to be toast. These swarms live on because they do so much more than line up shots, turn around, then line up shots. They have superior maneuverability when well flown, dominate space like no other list, self bump for profit, block for days, distribute the most dice across the most bodies possible... Now add in howl and crackshots and other abilities and they do soooooo much more than joust.

They only Jousted wave 1 when that was the only thing the opposition could do.

The Shark isn't dead. The shark just isn't riding a horse with a lance. He upgraded.

I think the easiest way to boost Jousters is to limit repositioning actions. Arc dodgers treating the dial as an afterthought is ruining the game. Oh, and the way FFG keeps bukakke-ing new rules and upgrades into the game doesn't help.

The game is really starting to get bloated IMO, and is in need of a reboot.

The basis of the game is hidden planning and movement, with no turrets when the game was 1st released, therefore, people dont want to get shot, therefore dodging arcs, therefore ergo, arc dodgers, therefore needing re positional abilities ergo, I hate your comment

Dodging arcs with two repositioning abilities is playing the game on easy mode. Dodging arcs by performing maneuvers your opponent did not predict is a much more 'fair' way to play, since everyone has the ability to do that. Adding some post maneuver repositioning is fine. Adding two, all the time, makes life a lot harder for the ships that can't do that. A barrel roll or a boost, by themselves, are neat additions that reflect how much more manueverable some ships (like Interceptors or A Wings) are. This is in addition to their fancy dial and boosted agility stats. Adding both of those actions together turns them into ships that are SO MUCH better than their non-repositioning cousins, that they effectively break the game by forcing those non-repositioning ships into retirement.

And FFG has come so far down this track now, adding auto-thrusters, royal guard titles, stealth devices, lots of turrets, advanced sensors and all sorts of pre-and-post dial repositioning options and counters to them, that there is no real way to dial the game back. It needs a reboot, to incorporate all the fixes into their basic cards (so just straight up give the TIE Advanced a system slot and a system discount, etc) and re-structure the system so that ALL ship types are viable, not just the ones that avoid enemy arcs by dodging them or ignore enemy arcs by firing turrets.

So is the Ewing not a jouster?. It seems people play corran more as a jouster as well and not really a neo jouster or arc dodger.

Wtf?

the most common build with Corran is PTL, r2-d2, FCS, Engine Upgrade, that gives him a great dial, two actions per turn if he wishes, and BOOST AND BARRL ROLL, as the only 2 repositioning abilities so far in the game..... and he could use those both in 1 turn and still have efficient shooting becuase of the permanent target lock from FCS

wtf are you on about?

And all those tools are primary used to get into ark, not to dodge an ark. Corran Horn wants to get a shot, if he needs to just for that this is fine with him, he double taps that fire button and annihilates his target, while R2-D2, his shields and his dial give him the option to regen afterwards. It not like he could shoot next turn anyway.

Baron Fel is quite the opposite in many cases. He would rather ark dodge a Corran Horn and miss out his own shot for that. He is literally the opposite of Horn.

That is the quintessence imo. Jousters accept to joust to get a shot, while arc dodgers prefer to lose a shot if it prevents them from getting shot at.

I lack experience, but as a new player it seems at least to me that one of the main issues for current jousters is to actually get into a joust position which allows them to shoot. TIE-Swarms have the numbers and blockers and still can easily do it, but X-Wings and B-Wings move first. Lack repositionable tools and are not that many on the field. This whole package combined allows high PS arc dodgers to reliable dodge enemy arcs while still shooting at their targets. And one of the reasons for this is that jousters are predictable in their dial and movement. It note like the dial of Ark-dodgers is not important, but you can easily choose something that roughly keeps up with the enemy X-Wings movement and than do the fine-tuning with boost&roll. K-Turns are not really a valid move against Fel, when he can defend with 4 dice + focus + evade against an unmodified 3 dice attack.

White K-Turns for T-65 would be still my prefered fix for them.

Hothie, I think swarms do much more than 'joust' though...

....yes. Blocking for a start. Have people on this thread forgotten about blocking? Arc dodgers won't be dodging many arcs if they're not getting their actions.

Hell, if you find yourself clanging straight into an enemy (or friendly, for that matter) ship when you reveal your dial, chances are you won't even be getting a focus token to defend yourself with, let alone barrel roll or boost.

Block Party!

Block Party!

You've jot to love those low PS mooks. Blount, Corran & Poe found themselves stuck in a three-Rebel pile up in front of a Slaver in my last tournament.

Bossk ate Blount, the Cartel Marauders crushed Poe. Corran ran... but he didn't get far.

The jousting ships (X, B, Kih, G1, etc..) seem to have been phased out by the gradual offensive power creep. (I'm referring to the ship, not the strategy).

The strength of these ships was that they were at the top of the pile offensively. While they wouldn't always have an opponent in arc, they could bring the pain when they did. Dealing damage has gotten a little bit easier with each wave as new offensive upgrades have come out. This has watered down the offensive advantage of the jousters.

Ships that can counter the offensive power creep via arc-dodging have stayed strong, as have ships whose reliable offense (turrets) balances out their lack of defense.

IMO, for the jousting ship to return to relevance, they need one of two things. A slight point reduction to make the generics more appealing or a slight defensive bump to make the uniques less fragile. Giving them more maneuvering merely turns them into a poor man's arc dodger and pulls them away from their unique roll in the game. I also wouldn't give them an offensive bump as there are already plenty of offensive upgrades out that aren't used on these ships because they can easily die before using the upgrades.

IMO, the non-Hera ghost is kinda in the vein of what a jouster should be. A ship that can be avoided, but is not quickly brought down, and will ruin your day if it catches you in it's sights.

The problem the X-wing and Kihraxz have is that they're not jousters.

We classify jousters as everything that's not an arc-dodger or a turret, hence many ships are misused and killed easily.

A jouster flies straight at the enemy as slow as it can, wears the enemy down with attrition then turns around and does it again. There are very few ships that can only really do this: basic Lambdas and maybe basic heavies (B-wing, G1). They'll win if they do, but rely solely on them and anything more maneuverable will get behind it.

The X-wing and Kihraxz really shouldn't do this. They've got decent dials and should use them: they can outmaneuver enemy ships, especially in numbers. They have little to no reactive repositioning but they can put themselves and their arc in a good position in the first place. Their health stats are good enough that they aren't screwed if they take a few hits but they don't want to feed themselves to focus fire and hope to win.

The "arc-dodger" is traditionally a glass cannon that trades the X-wing's ability to weather a few hits can reactively reposition (often double RR) if it finds itself on the edge of a firing arc. You've got to catch them to kill them, but if you do they're brittle enough shatter. The glass cannon has to avoid being shot. Alternatively you get the A-wing variety of arc-dodger, which is tougher but doesn't have as big a bite: it has to consistently dodge you or you'll outgun it to death.

The problem is that the jouster and the arc dodger crossbred into an arc dodging titanium cannon: you catch Soontir and he'll turtle down with Autothrusters, Focus Focus Evade and Palpatine.

While I don't agree with Fickle's entire post he nailed the problem: when your medium fighter nails an arc dodger the reward is too low. If it's that much harder to outfly an arc dodger the reward needs to be that much higher. It used to be that arc dodgers were so weak defensively that a couple of catches meant a kill: now that arc-dodgers boast equal or better survivability to other ships non-double repositioning arced ships need something else going for them.

The problem the X-wing and Kihraxz have is that they're not jousters.

We classify jousters as everything that's not an arc-dodger or a turret, hence many ships are misused and killed easily.

A jouster flies straight at the enemy as slow as it can, wears the enemy down with attrition then turns around and does it again. There are very few ships that can only really do this: basic Lambdas and maybe basic heavies (B-wing, G1). They'll win if they do, but rely solely on them and anything more maneuverable will get behind it.

The X-wing and Kihraxz really shouldn't do this. They've got decent dials and should use them: they can outmaneuver enemy ships, especially in numbers. They have little to no reactive repositioning but they can put themselves and their arc in a good position in the first place. Their health stats are good enough that they aren't screwed if they take a few hits but they don't want to feed themselves to focus fire and hope to win.

But this is really all they CAN do in this meta (and much of the old). What else can they do but try to get shots and kill before being killed? Very few things can't outrun a BWing but at least they knife fight, have BR, Systems, cannons... Xwings? Nada. K-fighters? Nope. These are the Jousters if there ever were any. It isn't a viable multi game strategy and the reason why we don't see these 2 ships.

Isn't the new x7 Tie Defender going to be the ultimate jouster?

Ive play tested it a few times and I think these are going to be beasts...

New defender is certainly looking like a "traditional" jouster but it can do more depending on what title it chooses, what pilot is being used, and what cannon, if any, it takes.

I think the new defender might be the solution to "traditional" jousters in that it can do more but has enough dice and health to focus you down first (and white Kturns are nice).

the new defender has MJ's seal of approval ito jousting values

it's got my seal of approval because the white 4k leads to some incredible shenanigans ala rolling or, if you love to irritate your opponents to death, focused ion cannons. While the x7 is drool-inducingly awesome, Tie/Ds will also be glorious.

The main reason the jouster had to die was simply that, for the most part, the base game was so simple they used up all the real design space by Wave 2-3. With most stats only having a point or two of usable variability and new actions showing how reliant the combat engine is on dice manipulation actions, there just wasn't enough design space to make unique ships.

A lot of what we've seen since is attempts to allow for more complexity. Talents that increase action economy or make models less reliant on their actions is the primary example. That's also why we're generally seeing ships with titles out of the box now. It's basically become a way to create special core rules for ships.

So... yeah. The game doesn't have a place for ships with limited dials and a couple action options that just roll dice to see what happens. Models need more than that because the game needs more ways to differentiate models. I'm sure that means the ones that are stuck in that place are now on the watch list for fixes.

Interesting thread. I like the 'neo-jousters' that have shaken things up. It is a good direction to keep that element in the game.

However, I think to some extent ordinance offers opportunities for traditional jousters to find a place in the meta. Most of the jousting ships have torps or missile slot(s). The point efficiency of jousters lessens the impact of ordinance cost and the opportunity cost of the modification slot for chips.

I think it might be nice for X-wings specifically to have ordinance related ability. Perhaps a title that reduces cost of Torp by 1 and/or adds ordinance token like Extra munitions. Or offers free TL with certain trigger.

I agree with some comments above that I like being rewarded for good flying in dial selection (not just post dial movement and PS bid).

Indeed. It's not that "jousting doesn't work" - it's that "jousting by itself doesn't work".

Jousting - by Ficklegreendice's (self-admittedly) specific definition - involves flying back and forth in straight lines, throwing red dice at one another until one side goes away.

The problem is that you know, going into such an engagement, that one side has a statistical advantage and there are limited options for tactics in a straight 'joust'. So if your squad is better than your opponent in a joust, why should they choose to co-operate, and if you're worse, why are you trying to joust in the first place.

Which is why successful 'jousting' squads need a second string to their bow. The TIE swarm, for example, can joust. But half the time I play it, the formation comes apart on the first pass and it starts its other favourite game - hard 1 turns, barrel rolls, and blocking moves. B-wings can do similar stuff, especially if they take Fire Control Systems or Advanced Sensors instead of their escorting Z-95 - their dial is an excellent knife fighter.

The problem is figuring out a second string that works. Cartel Marauder packs have a hard-1 turn and 5 ships - probably enough to do something of the TIE/ln tricks.

Rookie X-wings top out at 4 ships, but need something to give them a tactical edge. Unfortunately about the only trick they've got going is Targeting Astromechs/Flechette Torpedoes, or else dropping to 3 ships and taking named ones.