Hey guys,

so after the apparent travesty of TLTs forcing "all other generics" out of work and the Wave 8 scouts poised to do the same, I wanted to revisit the topic of jousting especially after the "Paradigm Shift of Red Dice" thread.

because I did not expect myself to be so ambivalent to the loss of these ships

to start, let me define jousting for the purposes of this thread

I. Jousting is the in-arc exchange of dice between ships.

put simply, this is jousting

and this is not

"Screw this, I'm going home!"

A "Jouster" would then be a ship that can do little except exchange dice (maybe block) by maneuvering and often K-turning back into the fight. They're supposed to excel in the game by carrying more dice per points than any other ship, implying that other ships caught in a raw exchange of dice should, on average, lose to jousters

The titular X-wing is a jouster. With a meh dial and only focus + TL, it is capable of little else.

other ships that we often consider in a similar category

• Tie Fighter (although I would dispute this due to their blocking potential)
• The Special-K hard to pronounce fighter (scum X-wing)
• B-wing
• G-1A Starfighter
• BTL-a4 Ion Y-wing (more of "jousting superiority" ship because ioned ships joust about as well as a paraplegic can run)
• Z-95

currently, the meta game would suggest that the jouster is no longer a viable ship-type as it is outperformed by the slightly less efficient but far more flexible TLTs and by the far more maneuverable and somehow more efficient (dat PS) "ace" or "Arc-dodger" archetype.

Wave 8 only seems to push things further by reintroducing ordnance into the game, giving you the capability to murder jousters before they even get to roll reds.

But like I said earlier, I find myself unable to care that we're losing these ships. Back in the dark ages of Wave 5, I longed for jousters to break the monotony of the PWT dice-fest, but now they just don't seem appealing. It's not that I don't like their role in star wars or their (very pretty models), but moreso that their playstyle has lately become very stale.

Is there any room in this maneuver-based game for ships that do little else but turn and exchange dice?

I believe so, but at this point I don't care because we've got awesome new toys instead

II The "neo-Jouster" exists, and it is cooler because it does more stuff

While X-wings and the like have become about as common as an astromech with arms, there are still a few big names that stuck around for Wave 7.

These are Poe, Bro-bots and, to a lesser extent, the Crackswarm

Poe is a high PS ship, but you don't see him dodging many arcs while maintaining an offensive edge. This is because boost flings your firing-arc to a new position, while barrel-roll maintains your facing, and because Poe can tank like a boss. While he can be irritating, I actually really like that he can alternate between flinging dice at you and running away like he left the stove on back home. This hit n run can really screw target priorities and shift the focus of the game suddenly, leading to imo tense chases as you try to down Poe while simultaneously avoiding the rest of the squad

Access to boost also greatly benefits aggressors, who can leverage their lower PS to block aces (a feat popularized by the humble Prototype pilot) in addition to using it to set up approaches (which is sometimes necessary, given the large base and single arc)

As for the Crackswarm, it is merely my opinion that the Tie Fighter's dial, cheapness and access to barrel-roll makes it an incredible blocker in addition to a jouster. The X-wing wishes it had those options

III Neo-Jousters are cooler because they have sexy new red maneuvers

I don't think there's a move I'm less excited to perform than the K-turn. It's an essential maneuver to get your ships back into the fight, but you can only perform it a few thousand times before you begin to wish for more.

The most exciting maneuver for me? Freaking segnor's. The loop is a beautiful, daring move that leads to many close shaves and tons of positioning possibilities looking into future turns.

The t-70 boasts the slightly less exciting (imo) but still fresh and unique T-roll. While it doesn't seem to have the same range of applications as segnor's (the two directions of which result in different facings, while T-roll always rotates you 180 degrees) but it's still pretty **** swanky

Now Aggressors have not only K-turns and segnor's, but they have the criminally underplayed IG-88D. That sharp turn is hilarious and I hope it makes it in as its own maneuver one day.

Being able to select several "jousting" maneuvers, rather than being limited to the straight + 180 every single game, adds an incredible amount of variety to games involving these ships

IV Neo-Jousters are more rewarding, because they try their darnedest to not let the dice screw you

I cannot count the times my range 1 focused B-wings return a measly single hit against a crucial target. I cannot forgive all the times my Zs popped to 3 damage (direct hit) at range 3.

With these new guys, such scenarios are far less likely, and I'm far more interested in underdogs that will actually get things done

enter this awesome bastard

Omega Leader, imo, is the epitome of the proper jouster. This little guy rewards positioning (hates getting focus fired, needs to set up a lock, lower PS than most aces) not by spitting in your face but by ploughing right through enemy defenses.

Imo, if you have to be limited to a ship that is far less maneuverable than its opponents, then you better be rewarded for outmaneuvering the enemy. Omega accomplishes this with flying colors. Sure, rng accidents always happen, but I cannot think of another 26 points capable of smacking range 3 soontir or brobots upside the head. I also can't think of much better experiences that pointing at enemy green dice and declaring JUUUUKE!

No dice shall stand in Omega's way!

Poe handles defensive dice with similar competence, juggling fickle greens with his ability, thrustersr, and regeneration capabilities

Aggressors handle both sides with a dizzying array of dice modifications, between thrusters and FCS and glitterstims and crackshots and IG-88b...

And then there's Xizor, easily my favorite most obscure pilot, who gets full mods from fire control and defensive insurance by being a self-centered bastard.

Finally, I'll cap off with the Defender (the uber-jouster) receiving some much needed buffs to its consistency with both the Tie/x7 and Tie/D titles. While it lacks sexy segnors, the white 4-k is just brimming with potential for abuse and the weird dial

V. FFG, if you want to fix the X-wing, make it more like these guys!

Imo, jousters need to be more to merit being seen again. While raw mathematical efficiency is necessary to get even the cooler kids into the game (re: poor Epsilon Squaddie and Blue Novice; not to mention Defenders), I believe you can do far more by improving their capability to do more than trade dice.

Let the X-wing boost after a green or red maneuver. Give Blacksun Aces a chance to show their stuff with segnor's (the choice of Ks was a start, I guess). Give Zs...actually, Zs are fine with rebel ordnance and feedback carry on

TL;DR

Imo the strictest definition of jousting makes for boring ships and we need more ships like

• T-70 (esp Poe and Asty)
• Tie/FO
• Starviper (though you could throw the generics a bit of a bone, eh?)
• Aggressors
• Defenders

not such that everything streaks about like Soontir, just such that it doesn't feel like flying lumps of congealed suck

Well said! The Paradigm shift article made me realize that fundamentaly jousting should not be considered a strategy, but rather a situaion that occurs. Whenever you settle for just flying straight at your opponent thats a boring game, outmanouvering should always be the goal.

also here's lame X-wing fix idea to coincide with the philosophy of the neo jouster

Insert Rogue One Model Here (0)

(title)

X-wing Only

After executing a green or red manuever, if you did not overlap an obstacle or another ship, you may perform a boost or assign 1 focus token to your ship. If you do, you must skip your Perform Action step this round.

inb4 op Poe and especially op Blue Ace

That would be two boosts with squad leader or any other less bad free action cards. That might be a tad too abusable.

That would be two boosts with squad leader or any other less bad free action cards. That might be a tad too abusable.

yeees

but it would be pretty awesome

you get these weird sorta-segnors after 4ks and the trolls just get wild, not to mention the 135 degree turn after a green 2-turn with r2 astromech

That would be two boosts with squad leader or any other less bad free action cards. That might be a tad too abusable.

I wont cause you still cannot perform 2 same actions, even if they are free.

That would be two boosts with squad leader or any other less bad free action cards. That might be a tad too abusable.

I wont cause you still cannot perform 2 same actions, even if they are free.

Well, Fickle said its perform a boost, not a boost action.

Still, what I said leaves you with no dice mods, so it can't be op in the end.

Giving an X-Wing a boost action puts it on par with an A-Wing in terms of straight line speed, something it absolutely should not be (I have issues with the T-70). Barrel Roll makes way more sense - you even see it in the films.

I agree that Jousting is boring, but when you get near my baby suggesting boosts to fix her, I've got to disagree.

I always look down on Arc-Dodging, as much like the maligned PWT, being able to Barrel Roll + Boost in either order in any direction makes the dial more of an afterthought. If Wedge makes the wrong move and ends up at Range 1 of multiple scary enemies, he has to focus and hope for the best. If Soontir Fel does the same, he can boost + barrel roll out of arc and grab a focus for the trouble.

Not to say I don't think Arc-Dodging is 'broken' or 'ruining the game' or 'omg acewing op wave 3 best meta', but it's personally not for me. I like to live or die by the dial, and any fix for the T-65 should be focused on injecting some more flavour into it, making it feel like an X-Wing to fly, like how the Defender Fixes make the Defender match up to it's 'stupidly expensive, but stupendously murderous' reputation, or how ATC made Vader feel like the Y-Wing butchering badass he is.

Still, I agree that the more fun 'Jouster' ships actually have a secret splash of spicy sauce to make them more interesting to fly. I never fly naked B-Wings for example, always with either a System or a Cannon to take advantage of the Swiss Army Knife to it's fullest.

Giving an X-Wing a boost action puts it on par with an A-Wing in terms of straight line speed, something it absolutely should not be (I have issues with the T-70). Barrel Roll makes way more sense - you even see it in the films.

It doesn't, the X-Wing doesn't have a 5 straight unlike the A-Wing. Fickles idea also was to tie it to green and red manouvers, meaning there is no possibility of going full speed ahead.

I have to second this. My first store Championship this year, I flew against an XXBY list and at first was thrilled to be facing off against another jouster (I was running 4 AC cluster missile Tempests). Then the joust happened. It was boring. It was everything people complain about TLT matches (Only with just a single TLT, obviously). The only actually interesting part of that match was trying to slow roll my last Tie Advanced so I could engage the TlT from a favorable position.

Giving an X-Wing a boost action puts it on par with an A-Wing in terms of straight line speed, something it absolutely should not be (I have issues with the T-70). Barrel Roll makes way more sense - you even see it in the films.

It doesn't, the X-Wing doesn't have a 5 straight unlike the A-Wing. Fickles idea also was to tie it to green and red manouvers, meaning there is no possibility of going full speed ahead.

I chose boost many because of how it can change the facing, which is huge for setting up for future turns esp post red maneuver

Also because empire loves to roll so I thought it'd be nice to preserve the dichotomy with the tie fighter

I have to second this. My first store Championship this year, I flew against an XXBY list and at first was thrilled to be facing off against another jouster (I was running 4 AC cluster missile Tempests). Then the joust happened. It was boring. It was everything people complain about TLT matches (Only with just a single TLT, obviously). The only actually interesting part of that match was trying to slow roll my last Tie Advanced so I could engage the TlT from a favorable position.

I've also had similar experiences v the X

At first, you're just so glad to see them on the table. Then the dice happen and they usually just drop

I never feel bad facing off against scary aggressors or when it's FO on poet (revenge for our silver screen brethren!) because they got other tricks up their sleeve, but I can never tell what the t65 could have done differently in our games

Except for bb8 wedge; dude is a little tricksy

I'd really dispute that OL is a good jouster. Jousting usually results in exchanging fire with multiple ships, and doing that just nukes OL. He's by far at his best one on one. He's outstanding in one-on-one jousting, no question, but he's outstanding in one-on-one full stop, Wes Janson and people with higher PS and Expert Handling excepted.

OL isn't a good jouster by traditional means, but he is my Standard for what the jouster should be

Choice of red maneuvers and a greaT dial + action bar (without boost + roll arc dodgibg capabilities) stapled to a gun that's actually scary if you catch arcdodgers in your arc

Excellent thread. I don't really care about the loss of jousters anymore either because we have a bunch of Neo-Jousters like HM EM Gammas and stuff now.

Triple U-Boat is the best thing to happen to this game in a while.

Maybe they could give the T65 a title card to give an S loop, or T roll. Barrel roll would be a possibility, but it may end up being a 1-3 point cost for the title. I've never flown Luke, Biggs, and Wedge, because I came to the game in wave 7, so they were already obsolete at that point. I DO fly gold squadron (Dutch, and 3 gold squadron pilots, all with an R2 and ion turrets). At least you don't have to worry as much about arc, but you can get picked apart at range 3 vs three dice or higher attack ships.

I've certainly come to agree with the OP except on one point. I really enjoy plying jousters, I like the tension of trying to get stuff in arc, how important deployment becomes, asteroid placement, even the first and second manuever of the game. I'm actually really dissapointed to see them going the way of the dinosaur.

Here is what I said on that other thread:

Jousting is dead.

Maybe it never really was alive.

Look back on even wave 1 and wave 2 and see who actually "jousted" and if they could do anything but joust.

I think there is a great deal of thought going into "jousting" at this stage when it really has no place in this modern game. TLTs don't joust they TURRET and control. Look at all "good jousters" (if there are any left) and they don't just joust. Just jousting has never really won when other options were available; jousting really only "won" when there wasn't better things to do or you had brought rock to a paper fight.

BBBBZ and classic swarm are the "last" big jousting lists. B's pack 14-18 red dice and 36hp. Swarm packs 14-24 dice and 21-24hp but protected by 3 AG. Both bring more dice to the fight, take up more real estate, have more arcs, more bodies to distribute, blocks for days, and BR. If these lists "just" joust, they lose too.

Jousting is gone if it ever really existed as a legitimate strategy rather than something that was done because there weren't other good options.

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Your neo jousters explain this well. There isn't anything left in the game that can just joust and expect success. I'd go as far as to say you can pretty well "delete" jousting from our current use as it just doesn't happen successfully.

I always love reading ficklegreendice's threads and comments.

It's like that cold glass of Coke with ice on a hot summers day after coming home from work.

A feeling I don't experience all to often reading some of the drivel on this site.

Thanks Fickle for this thread. I was reading the newest pages of the article you referenced and was asking myself, "What is the definition of Jousting?". I already knew what jousting was, but it is important to define the term as agreed upon by the masses for better discussion. Thanks for that.

I love flying the jousting type ships, but they are very limited. I really enjoy concentrating firepower, but find it less desirable to run a quad squad of TLTs or similar. My most recent squads have focused around the mid-PS range of a variety of ships. I'm going with the scum toolbox approach. I like to have some utility available for different situations. Before Wave 8, I was going with Guri, Palob, and N'Dru. Now that I have Wave 8, I am looking at Manaroo with Palob and 4-LOM.

Anyway, my point is that I realized a few months ago that even if I ran Aces, I could always be out-PSed if I lost the initiative bid or someone brought a higher PS. I stopped trying to force an Ace into each list I made. I love pilots like Guri because she can be so offensive and defensive at the same time. Yes, she can be outmaneuvered by half of the ships in the game, but most people run something in their list that Guri will be effective against. The StarViper has plenty of options for the named pilots, which is awesome. I would love to see the X-Wing back up in this realm, like you said. They have plenty of pilots, but less options for each individual pilot. I think we are in need of some more varied astromechs. A Rebel Veterans pack with E-Wings (plus astromechs useful for X-Wings) would be nice. I just want to see more tools in the toolbox for the old X-Wings.

Target Lock is prominent in a lot of lists these days, so maybe it's time to go back to Expert Handling?

Target Lock is prominent in a lot of lists these days, so maybe it's time to go back to Expert Handling?

I've seen this mentioned a lot, with reference both to Omega Leader and to Vader, as well as to ordnance types. But it's a tough call; for it to do anything other than just cost an action, you have to be higher pilot skill than them, which is not easy, and more to the point it means you're not taking another EPT, and you're either taking an action you could do anyway, or gaining a stress.

I think we'll see more EH, but not a lot more.

E: double post, internet fail, sorry.

My take as a newer pilot but old gamer...

Keep the mechanics and stats as they are, but retool the point costs across the board. Release the new costs online and eventually make reprint decks for folks who would by them.

Gump-piloted jousters would do more against aces and uber cargo ships when priced to fly in larger packs.

My take as a newer pilot but old gamer...

Keep the mechanics and stats as they are, but retool the point costs across the board. Release the new costs online and eventually make reprint decks for folks who would by them.

Gump-piloted jousters would do more against aces and uber cargo ships when priced to fly in larger packs.

When someone successfully does this in a way that doesn't result in just a different set of under and overcosted models, I'll think its truly worth the hassle. Granted, if the game was truly broken, I'd say its worth the hassle, but right now nearly every ship is viable, even if some of them are only viable with a single pilot. The likelihood that a game wide points adjustment would result in a meta as diverse isn't terrible great, IMO.

Here is what I said on that other thread:

Jousting is dead.

Maybe it never really was alive.

Look back on even wave 1 and wave 2 and see who actually "jousted" and if they could do anything but joust.

I think there is a great deal of thought going into "jousting" at this stage when it really has no place in this modern game. TLTs don't joust they TURRET and control. Look at all "good jousters" (if there are any left) and they don't just joust. Just jousting has never really won when other options were available; jousting really only "won" when there wasn't better things to do or you had brought rock to a paper fight.

BBBBZ and classic swarm are the "last" big jousting lists. B's pack 14-18 red dice and 36hp. Swarm packs 14-24 dice and 21-24hp but protected by 3 AG. Both bring more dice to the fight, take up more real estate, have more arcs, more bodies to distribute, blocks for days, and BR. If these lists "just" joust, they lose too.

Jousting is gone if it ever really existed as a legitimate strategy rather than something that was done because there weren't other good options.

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Your neo jousters explain this well. There isn't anything left in the game that can just joust and expect success. I'd go as far as to say you can pretty well "delete" jousting from our current use as it just doesn't happen successfully.

So,if I'm reading you right, a TIE swarm:

1) Is dead

2) can't do anything but joust

3) has no place in this modern game

4) Just jousting has never really won

5) Jousting is gone if it ever really existed as a legitimate strategy

6) There isn't anything left in the game that can just joust and expect success

7) delete jousting from our current use because it doesn't happen successfully

I think I understand your points, but my Store Championship plaque disagrees with you. 29 people, 5 rounds of Swiss, plus top 4. 7-0 with Howlrunner, Backstabber, Dark Curse, 2XObsidian, 2XAcademy Pilot. No upgrades. Pure Wave 1 swarm vs seven rounds of everything legal up to Wave 8 because it wasn't released yet. I beat 2 Scum lists, 2 Rebel lists (one of them twice, round 5 and Finals), and 2 Imperial lists that both included Omega Leader. Every Swiss round I faced someone who was undefeated as well. And, generally, flying a TIE swarm takes loads of practice and mental fortitude, but I had played exactly one game in the past 5 months, so i was a little rusty. Plus I was trying an opening I've never tried before.

But with Wave 8 released, NOW the swarm is dead for sure. Pretty sure I've been hearing that phrase since Wave 2.

Yeah, you can keep saying the shark is dead and has no place int his game. I prefer to think of it as evolving.