Reads like most of the salient points have been covered.

100.00 rule book that you need to play. 25 or 30.00 faction specific rule book you "need" to play. Roughly a 200.00 buy in for a starting army of models.

And, as I understand with the new rules, they essentially took a miniatures game and made it pay to win.

They should make plastic sisters or just squat them and put people out of their missery.

Sisters don't sell because they are expensive at £50 for one squad, GW says they don't make plastic sisters because they don't sell, it's the standard circular thinking from their management.

There's no reason not to make female guard either.

And the worst part is that if you buy any bits from other companies to make up for GW's shortcoming (thinking primarily of female imperial guard heads and torsos, as well as alternate space marine heads/weapons) you aren't allowed to use them in official tournament settings as the army is not 100% pure Games Workshop miniatures. It's a very stifling system, disallowing people the usage of things to make their armies feel more personalised or unique. I wasn't allowed to play my 30k Thousand Sons list at Throne of Skulls because I use Kromlech heads, weapons and shoulders and was advised to remove the weapons and replace them with the various Tomb Kings khopesh models - which are now being taken out of production.

They're very sales orientated, a bit too much to the point where it's difficult to personalise your army using only the bits you have available for sale by Games Workshop because the bits are so **** expensive.

That said, I've seen noticeable improvements (both in price and in bits allowance), if only in the Age of Sigmar area. Geedubs seem a lot more lenient over that system, for some reason - I used King of War wraith hoods on my Stormcast Eternals and none of the staff seemed to mind. :s

Since getting into gw in 1990,I've seen the company change a great deal over the years not all for the better. Prices have increased to a point that making a good army will cost 200 - 300 pounds easy, more if you wish to make a hoard army. Good board games that they made like blood bowl were killed off. The two things that really got my goat was changing 40k 6th to 7th ed after only 18 months because allies were broken. And age of sigmar. No points is my biggest problem with it. How can you have a fair battle without a system to ensure both sides are balanced. To be fair, gw has begun to sort a few things to return to the light ( free rules, blood bowl return) but I fear the company I grew up with has long gone.

Sisters don't sell because they are expensive at £50 for one squad, GW says they don't make plastic sisters because they don't sell, it's the standard circular thinking from their management.

It is a rather circular argument that seems to show the core of GW's problem. The fact that they are so out of touch with the hobby itself. It seems there's a lot of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic in that company. Because they just can't believe that they are their biggest problem. They still act like it's the 90's and they're the only game in town.

Another issue I have, along the same lines, is how they make these elaborate products that are arguably worth what they charge, but no one really wants to pay for anyway.

Take the rule book, it's like 500 pages, full color glossy and hardcover. Taking on it's face I think $85 isn't unreasonable considering the production cost. But I'd dare say that most people would be completely happy with a 300 page, soft cover black and white rules only book for half or less of the price. I know I would anyway. That's the problem though their stock item is a collector's edition in most other games. But the only thing the offer is the collector's edition priced stuff.

Take the rule book, it's like 500 pages, full color glossy and hardcover. Taking on it's face I think $85 isn't unreasonable considering the production cost. But I'd dare say that most people would be completely happy with a 300 page, soft cover black and white rules only book for half or less of the price. I know I would anyway. That's the problem though their stock item is a collector's edition in most other games. But the only thing the offer is the collector's edition priced stuff.

"Take the rulebook... no, please, take it. TAKE IT!"

Following that analogy, unfortunately they also offer limited-run collector's edition versions of the collector's edition, which also sell for twice the price...

Posted this elsewhere, might as well post it here as well:

I'm starting to think the amount of forumwhine we're seeing is increasing proportionally with the amount of players leaving 40K and coming... here.

So many people, all so used to an inherently broken and buy-to-win game system, they just don't understand what the word "balanced" means any more. New ships released? Of course they must be broken and OP! It's what they're used to!

So many years of GW damage to the tabletop gaming community cannot simply be undone overnight.

"Take the rulebook... no, please, take it. TAKE IT!"

So many years of GW damage to the tabletop gaming community cannot simply be undone overnight.

Perhaps not completely appropriate but it's like someone who's been abused, they have serious trouble trusting the type of person who did the abusing.

I think you may have something there though about the abused mentality coming here. But you've been around as long if not longer than I do, and you know that the Sky is Falling posts aren't a recent thing.

Also it's perhaps a symptom of it's success... the MMO WoW had a rep for having a lot of nasty/rude people. But the truth is, the % of jerks in WoW is not much higher than other games, it's just that 5% of 5,000,000 is a lot bigger number than 5% of 500,000 so you'll run into them more often. Perhaps the same is true of X-Wing as it gets more popular the signal to noise ratio doesn't change, but the amount of noise goes up due to an increase in signal.

I just want to find a way to make killteam work in a way that isn't igoyougo. actually... to teach my kids gaming, i don't even care about that. Killteam is simple and easy.

5th ed box set orks F T W. 4th ed box set scenary F T W. All the snaptogethers. Snaptogether kits are awesome for teaching young kids.

Since i am no longer doing this tourney, and just for kids to play. It's no longer GW only, so my sisters are dreamforge valkirs with GW weapons and statuesque heroic range heads.

I also ordered an fem inquisitor and chaos champion from anotherworldminis.com

...you know that the Sky is Falling posts aren't a recent thing

...true enough, there's always been a few of them doing the rounds on Wave launch (or on first preview, for that matter). Phantom aside, very few have had much in the way of substance. Usually they just seem top stem from an "I-wasn't-prepared-and-I-got-smashed" last game played scenario.

There's certainly a worry about power creep, but I don't think it's power creep so much as unlocking inherent potential over time. We're certainly not seeing much in the way of raw stat increases (the Ghost is only the second 4 attack dice ship).

I just want to find a way to make killteam work in a way that isn't igoyougo.

Couldn't you use something like the Imperial Assault system? That's not igougo. They even recently changed it to help with the balance issues that more activations caused.

It wouldn't take much to change it like that. Activate a model/squad move, shoot, assault (w/Overwatch) then the other guy does the same things. Although if it were me, I'd be tempted to do something where everyone moves and shoots with their models then you assault as a separate phase.

Phantom aside, very few have had much in the way of substance.

I'm not sure how many of the ones on page 1 of the main forms have much substance either... I mean when someone talks about the 'already OP defender getting a boost'...

There's certainly a worry about power creep, but I don't think it's power creep so much as unlocking inherent potential over time.

I agree, but part of it depends on how you define Power Creep... I think it's natural for a game to increase its overall power level over time. Much like MMO's increase the level cap.

It's hard to add new upgrades into the game without increasing the overall effectiveness of the ships in it, because otherwise why buy them. But as long as it's a matter of the tide raising all boats then balance is maintained.

Codex Creep the bad type of power creep is when a given unit out and out replaces another one, and that for the most part hasn't happened much in X-Wing. Sure the T-65 needs help, but that's not really power creep, but rather that the T-65 wasn't that good to start with, but it was the only option.

IA.. I dunno, kids in mind want to keep it super-simple.

Unrelated, I just rolled a chaos warband on 1d4chans generation table (see here https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Warband_Creation_Tables ) and got this:

Warband Structure: Renegade Chapter

Reason for fall: Marines in the Chapter dabbled in the dark arts and thought nobody would find out. They were wrong.

Progenitor: Imperial Fists

Warband Beliefs: Fanatic

Worships: Slaanesh

Belief: Daemonhood is Godhood - To ascend to daemonhood is to become a god. Those who have become beings of the warp are revered greatly, those who have not strive to do so. Re-roll if your Warband's devotion to chaos is "Loathed".

Warband Demeanour: Honour Amongst Thieves. Despite being evil and cruel individuals, these Marines have a strong sense of brotherhood. Many would never even consider betraying their fellow warriors an option, and would even sacrifice themselves to save a friend's life.

Common Mutation: Body Horror

Common Mental Flaws: I Must Get Closer! - Marines are obsessed with getting close to their enemies.

Champion of Legend: An extremely zealous Champion or Possessed

Legendary deeds: The hero corrupted nearly an entire sector of planets, causing the populations of them to fall to Chaos. If your warband loathes Chaos, he instead managed to get entire sectors to violently rebel against Imperium rule, throwing them into total anarchy.

Homeworld: SPACE HULK!

Doctrine: Death from Afar - Marines prefer to fight enemies from a distance. This doesn't just mean they like to use guns, but also that they use things like orbital bombardment and artillery frequently as well.

Special Equipment: Ancient Weaponry

Warband Status: Slightly Understrength

Cause of diminished strength: Conflicts within the Warband. Anything from the Warband fracturing to an all-out civil war.

Warband Allies: Corrupt Governor or other high-ranking Imperial official

Warband Enemies: Specific Space Marine Chapter/leader

This is more or less the perfect warband for me. It's going to be fallen black templars/lost crusade who dabbled in making fem-marines. A fem marine was created (see the model I just ordered) half the chapter wanted to kill her as an abomination (even after declared heretics) the other half thought she was the future. Despite fierce loyalty to each other there was a chapter civil war. Said Champion loyalty corrupted a sector - largely unknown to the Empire, said corrupt official still sends his best resources.

The chapter/warband retains their black templar goodies, despite preferring ranged combat have a healthy desire to kill up and close, as their crusading ilk are like to. They have become wholly infatuated with chaos.

IA.. I dunno, kids in mind want to keep it super-simple.

I think the IA method of each player activating a single model then other player activating one is at least as simple as the igoyougo method.

Unrelated, I just rolled a chaos warband on 1d4chans generation table

that's quite cool

IA.. I dunno, kids in mind want to keep it super-simple.

I think the IA method of each player activating a single model then other player activating one is at least as simple as the igoyougo method.

It is, it's just the rest of the rules I'm not sure on...

Remember. 20+ years experience with 40k.. recently started collecting and have yet to do a game on IA...

Also, all those cards and tokens. There is a reason I am using snaptogethers for the kids...

It is, it's just the rest of the rules I'm not sure on...

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying you should play IA. I'm saying you could use the activation method in IA in Kill Team.

So play Kill Team like normal, but instead of one person moving all their models, shooting, assaulting ect... You alternate between players, one model at a time.

AH! Yes I did misunderstand.

That makes perfect sense, and is worthy of consideration.

That makes perfect sense, and is worthy of consideration.

Good I'm glad we sorted it out then.

I've played a few games of Imperial Assault and have read though the rules for Kill Team, so if have any questions about it, feel free to IM me and we can discuss.

Eh, what I really need to do is just get a game in.

For killteam i've played it many times, and indeed am in an official capability currently undefeated. Every Killteam game i've been to in the local GW I just ripped face. The below combo works stupidly well against everything, especially space marines and Eldar...

Raptors Sternguard in a laserback...

The trick is simple really. Keep the marines in the back until they don't need to be, use the razorback to block lines of sight. use whatever ammo is best. Eldar Rangers were the most fun to try this on... Dragonfire rounds and LOS elimination/playing 5 marine peekaboo.... omg was so deliciously nasty towards them.

They had a really nice 2+ cover save too...

In other games against eldar i've had kraken rounds blast through aspect warriors, and hilariously a howling banshee charge one of my marines, fail to wound, and then just get headbutted to death with a regular attack.

I've also had them run from my snipers/lasback into a building only for me to use those lascannons to collapse a building on them...

I like killteam...

This said, my tactic above relies a lot on reveal, isolate and eliminate strategies, which while cheesy and horrendously effective, would be crippled on an individual model basis.

I see this as only a good thing.

Killteam would be fun if I had the option of actually being able to use half the models I own in it. Because 2+ armor is clearly broken but all of the other stuff you can bring totally isn't /s

What killed 40k for me (among other things) is the reliance on comp packs to make the game close to tolerable. Even in early 6th, we knew that we were in a garbage game but dealt with it. Comp packs create so many variants of the game that it's just playing a different game at every place.

I keep hearing on podcasts people saying things like "I came to X-Wing as a refugee from 40k" and everyone laughs and agrees and generally sympathises. I hear similar comments constantly, even on the forums.

As a genuine point of curiosity, what has happened to 40k these days to cause so much upset? Is there a concise source of information somewhere that someone could point me to? I haven't played 40k for 20+ years, so am somewhat out of the loop.

Basically I'd just like to understand what all these people are talking about!

I don't know about anyone else but when Battlefleet Gothic became unsupported, or at least had books and minis stop being produced that kinda killed 40k for me. Then their was the Eye of Terror campaign, whoever would win, faction wise, would canically e the winners in the lore, just like what happened in the third battle of Armageddon GW went back on their word and had IOM canonically be the winners. It wasn't as bad though as what happened in Armageddon, we got a hallow victory with all renegades and chaos free to leave the eye of terror BUT the planet in charge of defending that area from Chaos was never captured and is unconquerable. In Armageddon, even the though the Ork players curb stomped the IOMs, GW wrote the Orks getting curbed. Lastly all my most elite custom made Night Lord special forces minis became unusable when 5th edition came out. They are only good for art shows now. My lord of the Night Lords was worth around $700 North American dollars, I worked hard to make it unique. Pretty much unusable in 5th edition and onward.

Model Viability. No Sisters of battle! I consider this a huge negative, reinforced yesterday when my daughter asked if there were girls, as she wanted to play girls. F**K you for that, GW.

Sexism. Yeah. I am bringing this up. GW as a company are behind the times by at least 20 years. Still no sisters models, and when they do a female model it's rarely great.

Shame, some of the elf/eldar models (all ranges) are pretty good. I really like the handmaiden when painted properly. I'm not even going into the fluff. Someone needs to do the Sisters serious justice.

If it helps, most people over look the Sisters of Battle Minis made for the Witch Hunters codex, they are newer than the 15 - 20 year old ones. Granted they are not new "new."

Yeaaahhh they have the same problems. In fact, they are the ~15 year old ones. The 20 year olds are from the 90s.

They are if you want to be pedantic around 13 years old, I rounded up.

Still working on my valkir-statuesque-sisters.

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

there are groups on FB who are writing Necromunda/Mordheim style rules for this level of play.

Heralds fo Ruin Kill Team is the one I follow closest.

Me and my friends would play 40k in 40 minutes a few years ago under 5th edition, it was 400 points, I think no uniques and only small vehicles allowed. It was pretty fun and got the game played with less models and time. You can search that term on google and find rules for it.

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

there are groups on FB who are writing Necromunda/Mordheim style rules for this level of play.

Heralds fo Ruin Kill Team is the one I follow closest.

Me and my friends would play 40k in 40 minutes a few years ago under 5th edition, it was 400 points, I think no uniques and only small vehicles allowed. It was pretty fun and got the game played with less models and time. You can search that term on google and find rules for it.

I played a tournament back in 5th where the tables were set up in a U, rounds were around 40 minutes, and the points were something like 842. You moved to your left at the end of each round and it was quite enjoyable

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

there are groups on FB who are writing Necromunda/Mordheim style rules for this level of play.

Heralds fo Ruin Kill Team is the one I follow closest.

Me and my friends would play 40k in 40 minutes a few years ago under 5th edition, it was 400 points, I think no uniques and only small vehicles allowed. It was pretty fun and got the game played with less models and time. You can search that term on google and find rules for it.

I remember that well. Was later re-branded as combat patrol if I recall?

FYI...

If anyone is part of the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team FB group I posted some editable PDF's to it. They aren't my PDF's I just added forms to the ones they had in their dropbox.